Just Thinking about Recent Events in the Ukraine

[Loren Pechtel]

You're still ignoring the key fact--the missile launch was detected.

1.No it wasn't.
2.Yes it was but it was from Kiev controlled territory

Both these alternatives have as much evidence as your reply does.

What is the point of making these assertions but never backing them up with any evidence?

It's not exactly hidden. Google quickly reveals this:

http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/...ed-source-of-missile-that-shot-down-airliner/

Which is probably where I saw it as I do read that site.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

We also so know that the US govt will lie and distort the truth about such things. As former CIA analyst Ray Mcgovern points out in his recent piece which mentions a previous incident Facts Needed on Malaysian Plane Shoot-Down July 18, 2014

That site is awfully biased.

 

[barbos]

Yes, there are a lot of things pointing to Kiev being responsible.
Evidence Continues to Emerge #MH17 Is a False Flag Operation

You're still ignoring the key fact--the missile launch was detected.

Yes, it was detected by US, same way they detected russian forces near border on .... on old satellites photos.
And same way WMD were detected in Iraq. These are all facts too.

 

[tupac chopra]

1.No it wasn't.
2.Yes it was but it was from Kiev controlled territory

Both these alternatives have as much evidence as your reply does.

What is the point of making these assertions but never backing them up with any evidence?

It's not exactly hidden. Google quickly reveals this:

http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/...ed-source-of-missile-that-shot-down-airliner/

Which is probably where I saw it as I do read that site.

Good grief! lol. The President of the USA making an unsupported claim is not evidence Loren.

President Barack Obama today said without hesitation that the missile that shot down Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 was launched from within territory controlled by pro-Russian separatists in Eastern Ukraine. While he didn’t go into the sources the US used to pinpoint the launch, early reports say that US intelligence had identified the infrared signature of a missile launch just before contact with the airliner was lost

Next thing they'll be saying the rebels have Weapons of Mass Destruction too.

Or as one person who worked for the Reagan administration recently wrote.....The US Government Stands Revealed to the World as a Collection of War Criminals and Liars

Does the American public have the strength of character to face the fact that the US government stands before the entire world revealed as a collection of war criminals who lie every time that they open their mouth? Will Congress and the American public buy the White House lie that they must support war criminals and liars or “America will lose face”?

 

[ryan]

http://www.cracked.com/article_21341_5-ways-every-conspiracy-theory-makes-world-worse.html

conspiracy theories turn you into an asshole.

Science seems to agree, by the way. A 2011 experiment sat down British college students, and after giving them primers on popular conspiracy theories like 9/11 and the JFK assassination, asked them if they would help pull those off if they had the chance. The ones that believed the conspiracy theories were also the ones more likely to say yes. And that group was also the most likely to dick people over for their own ends.

Please, for fuck's sake, just STOP with the bullshit.

Things are bad enough without crackpots making them worse.

Worse to me is not exploring the possibilities and just accepting what we're told.

It's not like I am all over CNN trying to persuade the public with this. We are on a forum, so calm down. Forums like this are great places to raise questions.

No amount of evidence matters to people who are determined to believe in conspiracy, so I am not going to reiterate all the myriad reasons why all this bullshit is bullshit; but I am sick to death of reading this crap.

There is no connection between the MH017 and MH370 incidents. MAS are incredibly unlucky.

This is not a very convincing argument.

Lots of people are dead; their families and friends can do without a bunch of morons pursuing some crackpot theory about how all of this is part of some carefully orchestrated plot. It isn't; people fuck up, and stuff happens which nobody predicted in advance.

I am sad for the victims' families, but I see no harm in questioning what happened.

If you can't be part of the solution, at least stop making things worse, by shutting the fuck up unless you have real, first hand knowledge of some relevant facts. If you are 'Just thinking about' this, then keep your thoughts to yourself unless your evidence is a damn sight better than some dumb 14 year old article about a possible operation that might have been considered fifty years ago.

Your frustration is misdirected.

 

[bilby]

http://www.cracked.com/article_21341_5-ways-every-conspiracy-theory-makes-world-worse.html



Please, for fuck's sake, just STOP with the bullshit.

Things are bad enough without crackpots making them worse.

Worse to me is not exploring the possibilities and just accepting what we're told.

It's not like I am all over CNN trying to persuade the public with this. We are on a forum, so calm down. Forums like this are great places to raise questions.

No amount of evidence matters to people who are determined to believe in conspiracy, so I am not going to reiterate all the myriad reasons why all this bullshit is bullshit; but I am sick to death of reading this crap.

There is no connection between the MH017 and MH370 incidents. MAS are incredibly unlucky.

This is not a very convincing argument.

Lots of people are dead; their families and friends can do without a bunch of morons pursuing some crackpot theory about how all of this is part of some carefully orchestrated plot. It isn't; people fuck up, and stuff happens which nobody predicted in advance.

I am sad for the victims' families, but I see no harm in questioning what happened.

If you can't be part of the solution, at least stop making things worse, by shutting the fuck up unless you have real, first hand knowledge of some relevant facts. If you are 'Just thinking about' this, then keep your thoughts to yourself unless your evidence is a damn sight better than some dumb 14 year old article about a possible operation that might have been considered fifty years ago.

Your frustration is misdirected.

Unless you have been to the Ukraine, you are just accepting what you are told, just as I am; the difference being that you are accepting the less well evidenced stuff.

My frustration is very accurately directed. That you don't see the harm you are doing does not excuse it, nor make it go away.

Please stop it. Please.

 

[Ford]

You're still ignoring the key fact--the missile launch was detected.

Yes, it was detected by US, same way they detected russian forces near border on .... on old satellites photos.
And same way WMD were detected in Iraq. These are all facts too.

So what you're saying is that if a country has ever been caught spreading disinformation we must reject out of hand everything that they claim.


If that's the case, then can we reject everything claimed by the government run by a former security official of a nation which not only lied to the world but systematically misled their own people?

Because it seems to me that if we're going to deny the launch detection from the US based on the fact that the US fabricated the WMD claims in Iraq, we should absolutely reject everything that comes from the Kremlin.

 

[tupac chopra]

Yes, it was detected by US, same way they detected russian forces near border on .... on old satellites photos.
And same way WMD were detected in Iraq. These are all facts too.

So what you're saying is that if a country has ever been caught spreading disinformation we must reject out of hand everything that they claim.

If that's the case, then can we reject everything claimed by the government run by a former security official of a nation which not only lied to the world but systematically misled their own people?
Because it seems to me that if we're going to deny the launch detection from the US based on the fact that the US fabricated the WMD claims in Iraq, we should absolutely reject everything that comes from the Kremlin.

So what you're saying is even though the USA has lied countless times about such things we must blindly accept whatever they say, especially when it's fits their agenda.

Just wording that in a style that will help you understand it.

 

[Ford]

So what you're saying is that if a country has ever been caught spreading disinformation we must reject out of hand everything that they claim.

If that's the case, then can we reject everything claimed by the government run by a former security official of a nation which not only lied to the world but systematically misled their own people?
Because it seems to me that if we're going to deny the launch detection from the US based on the fact that the US fabricated the WMD claims in Iraq, we should absolutely reject everything that comes from the Kremlin.

So what you're saying is even though the USA has lied countless times about such things we must blindly accept whatever they say, especially when it's fits their agenda.

Just wording that in a style that will help you understand it.

For you, I'm saying that you should stop pushing Kremlin propaganda.

 

[tupac chopra]

So what you're saying is even though the USA has lied countless times about such things we must blindly accept whatever they say, especially when it's fits their agenda.
Just wording that in a style that will help you understand it.

For you, I'm saying that you should stop pushing Kremlin propaganda.

Ford, it's too late. The United States lies so much that even the Russians are more honest these days.
It's a joke really which is why Putin came out recently and said what everyone already knows. He said it publicly about John Kerry.


Speaking to his human rights council Wednesday, Putin said, "This was very unpleasant and surprising for me. We talk to them (the Americans), and we assume they are decent people, but he is lying and he knows that he is lying. This is sad."

 

[Togo]

For you, I'm saying that you should stop pushing Kremlin propaganda.

Ford, it's too late. The United States lies so much that even the Russians are more honest these days.
It's a joke really which is why Putin came out recently and said what everyone already knows. He said it publicly about John Kerry.


Speaking to his human rights council Wednesday, Putin said, "This was very unpleasant and surprising for me. We talk to them (the Americans), and we assume they are decent people, but he is lying and he knows that he is lying. This is sad."

Putin's opinion of John Kerry doesn't explain why you are pushing Kremlin propaganda. Why are you pushing Kremlin propaganda?

 

[Loren Pechtel]

You're still ignoring the key fact--the missile launch was detected.

Yes, it was detected by US, same way they detected russian forces near border on .... on old satellites photos.
And same way WMD were detected in Iraq. These are all facts too.

Launch plumes are far more precise than photo recon.

 

[tupac chopra]

Ford, it's too late. The United States lies so much that even the Russians are more honest these days.
It's a joke really which is why Putin came out recently and said what everyone already knows. He said it publicly about John Kerry.


Speaking to his human rights council Wednesday, Putin said, "This was very unpleasant and surprising for me. We talk to them (the Americans), and we assume they are decent people, but he is lying and he knows that he is lying. This is sad."

Putin's opinion of John Kerry doesn't explain why you are pushing Kremlin propaganda. Why are you pushing Kremlin propaganda?

Togo..why don't you point out anything I said that you think is Kremlin propaganda, and I'll answer you.
But if you are just making vague accusations then how can I reply?

I have linked to 4 websites in this thread. Former US assistant secretary to the treasury, Paul Craig Roberts website (an American). Former CIA analyst Ray Mcgoverns's article on an American website (another former US govt employee). Zerohedge, another American website.
And a Ukranian or Russian blog analysing some things.
So can you point out the stuff you think is Kremlin propaganda and I'll respond. And i ask that you be precise and specific. Thank you

 

[Ford]

Putin's opinion of John Kerry doesn't explain why you are pushing Kremlin propaganda. Why are you pushing Kremlin propaganda?

Togo..why don't you point out anything I said that you think is Kremlin propaganda, and I'll answer you.

The accusation that Kiev is responsible for the shoot down.

The accusation that "western media" are complicit.

The accusation that the US government is complicit.

The assertion that Russia has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with anything in Ukraine - rebels, weapons, or influencing events on the ground.

The assertion that Russia is the only actor in the region actually doing anything to solve the "mystery" of why the plane went down.

The denial that Russia had anything to do with the shoot down.


This is all the official Kremlin line, and you are repeating it almost verbatim. The fact that you've managed to find sources outside the Kremlin who repeat the propaganda is irrelevant.


But if you say you're not parroting Kremlin propaganda, then it should be very easy to prove. Simply provide an substantive example of where you disagree with what the Kremlin is saying. Be precise and specific. I know it will be difficult what with the threat of a cup of polonium tea hanging over your head, but if Mother Russia is so wonderful then you should be able to publicly disagree with the regime here in the "western media."


I won't hold my breath.

 

[Archimedes]

A Malaysian plane goes missing a few months ago, and then another is shot down arguably by the "enemy". This kind of deception was conceived before (Operation Northwoods), http://abcnews.go.com/US/story?id=92662&page=1 .

Operation Northwoods involved suggestions to hijack and making disappear a commercial airliner and then blowing up another airplane from the same airline in an unrelated incident thousands of miles away and several months later?

Operation Northwoods involved suggestions to hijack and making disappear a commercial airliner and then for some reason months later somehow managing to replace a commercial flight from the same airline with the airplane you hijacked and disappeared months earlier, and somehow managing to conspire to hide the hundreds of bodies and airplane that came from whichever flight you aren't using the bodies and aircraft from?

How in the name of everything that is sensible and good does any of this make sense? Hijacking and disappearing a commercial plane months ago because you want to blow up a different plane months later in an entirely different place in order to implicate the Russians in it? What exactly could have been achieved by hijacking and disappearing MH370 that would have made a false flag operation against MH17 make any sense? Either you've got to hide/murder hundreds of crew and passengers (and bodies) from one flight, replace an airplane with another in a major airline for some reason (why?) without the airline staff know or whistleblow, hide the extra plane, use MH370 for some reason as the false flag attack plane instead of MH17 plane (again, for reasons that I fail to grasp), etc. etc.

Why not just blow up the plane you want to blame the Russians for instead of this bizarre convulted scenario involving extra complexity, an extra commercial airline, extra hundreds of people you have to murder and hide bodies (or hide and not reveal the location of hundreds of people who survived one of the flights (or indeed have all 500+ bodies on one plane and hope the investigators don't notice hundreds of extra dead bodies or are they on the payroll of the guilty part?).

Are you serious or what?

 

[bilby]

A Malaysian plane goes missing a few months ago, and then another is shot down arguably by the "enemy". This kind of deception was conceived before (Operation Northwoods), http://abcnews.go.com/US/story?id=92662&page=1 .

Operation Northwoods involved suggestions to hijack and making disappear a commercial airliner and then blowing up another airplane from the same airline in an unrelated incident thousands of miles away and several months later?

Operation Northwoods involved suggestions to hijack and making disappear a commercial airliner and then for some reason months later somehow managing to replace a commercial flight from the same airline with the airplane you hijacked and disappeared months earlier, and somehow managing to conspire to hide the hundreds of bodies and airplane that came from whichever flight you aren't using the bodies and aircraft from?

How in the name of everything that is sensible and good does any of this make sense? Hijacking and disappearing a commercial plane months ago because you want to blow up a different plane months later in an entirely different place in order to implicate the Russians in it? What exactly could have been achieved by hijacking and disappearing MH370 that would have made a false flag operation against MH17 make any sense? Either you've got to hide/murder hundreds of crew and passengers (and bodies) from one flight, replace an airplane with another in a major airline for some reason (why?) without the airline staff know or whistleblow, hide the extra plane, use MH370 for some reason as the false flag attack plane instead of MH17 plane (again, for reasons that I fail to grasp), etc. etc.

Why not just blow up the plane you want to blame the Russians for instead of this bizarre convulted scenario involving extra complexity, an extra commercial airline, extra hundreds of people you have to murder and hide bodies (or hide and not reveal the location of hundreds of people who survived one of the flights (or indeed have all 500+ bodies on one plane and hope the investigators don't notice hundreds of extra dead bodies or are they on the payroll of the guilty part?).

Are you serious or what?

Crazy conspiracy theory is crazy.

 

[ryan]

A Malaysian plane goes missing a few months ago, and then another is shot down arguably by the "enemy". This kind of deception was conceived before (Operation Northwoods), http://abcnews.go.com/US/story?id=92662&page=1 .

Operation Northwoods involved suggestions to hijack and making disappear a commercial airliner and then blowing up another airplane from the same airline in an unrelated incident thousands of miles away and several months later?

Try again.

Operation Northwoods involved suggestions to hijack and making disappear a commercial airliner and then for some reason months later somehow managing to replace a commercial flight from the same airline with the airplane you hijacked and disappeared months earlier, and somehow managing to conspire to hide the hundreds of bodies and airplane that came from whichever flight you aren't using the bodies and aircraft from?

How in the name of everything that is sensible and good does any of this make sense? Hijacking and disappearing a commercial plane months ago because you want to blow up a different plane months later in an entirely different place in order to implicate the Russians in it? What exactly could have been achieved by hijacking and disappearing MH370 that would have made a false flag operation against MH17 make any sense? Either you've got to hide/murder hundreds of crew and passengers (and bodies) from one flight, replace an airplane with another in a major airline for some reason (why?) without the airline staff know or whistleblow, hide the extra plane, use MH370 for some reason as the false flag attack plane instead of MH17 plane (again, for reasons that I fail to grasp), etc. etc.

Why not just blow up the plane you want to blame the Russians for instead of this bizarre convulted scenario involving extra complexity, an extra commercial airline, extra hundreds of people you have to murder and hide bodies (or hide and not reveal the location of hundreds of people who survived one of the flights (or indeed have all 500+ bodies on one plane and hope the investigators don't notice hundreds of extra dead bodies or are they on the payroll of the guilty part?).

Are you serious or what?

Try harder.

 

[bilby]

Operation Northwoods involved suggestions to hijack and making disappear a commercial airliner and then blowing up another airplane from the same airline in an unrelated incident thousands of miles away and several months later?

Try again.

Operation Northwoods involved suggestions to hijack and making disappear a commercial airliner and then for some reason months later somehow managing to replace a commercial flight from the same airline with the airplane you hijacked and disappeared months earlier, and somehow managing to conspire to hide the hundreds of bodies and airplane that came from whichever flight you aren't using the bodies and aircraft from?

How in the name of everything that is sensible and good does any of this make sense? Hijacking and disappearing a commercial plane months ago because you want to blow up a different plane months later in an entirely different place in order to implicate the Russians in it? What exactly could have been achieved by hijacking and disappearing MH370 that would have made a false flag operation against MH17 make any sense? Either you've got to hide/murder hundreds of crew and passengers (and bodies) from one flight, replace an airplane with another in a major airline for some reason (why?) without the airline staff know or whistleblow, hide the extra plane, use MH370 for some reason as the false flag attack plane instead of MH17 plane (again, for reasons that I fail to grasp), etc. etc.

Why not just blow up the plane you want to blame the Russians for instead of this bizarre convulted scenario involving extra complexity, an extra commercial airline, extra hundreds of people you have to murder and hide bodies (or hide and not reveal the location of hundreds of people who survived one of the flights (or indeed have all 500+ bodies on one plane and hope the investigators don't notice hundreds of extra dead bodies or are they on the payroll of the guilty part?).

Are you serious or what?

Try harder.

Try hard enough, and you can make the facts fit any crazy idea you like. If you have to try that hard, it is a good indication that your idea is indeed crazy.

 

[tupac chopra]

But if you say you're not parroting Kremlin propaganda, then it should be very easy to prove. Simply provide an substantive example of where you disagree with what the Kremlin is saying.

Sadly you won't quote me...so it makes it difficult to respond. Why not be a good chap and do so? Maybe you are misrepresenting me...bah..I couldn't be bothered if you are. Who cares.

But m'eh....none of those things are only being said by the Kremlin. As I pointed out, we have an ex CIA analyst saying the same things...so it's hardly Kremlin propaganda. We also have an ex Wall street journal editor saying , and countless other Americans who know their government routinely lies.

Lot's of people are arriving independently at the same conclusions.
Get over it Ford, your government is a bullshitter. And their "friends" such as some people in Kiev are too.

 

[Ford]

I couldn't be bothered if you are. Who cares.

Apparently you care very much, as you keep responding.

I get it. That's your job. Whether paid by the Kremlin or self appointed out of fear.

The thing is, I don't have to fear that my government will kill me for not agreeing with the official story.


Enjoy your tea.