Kamala the hypocrite

[Toni]

And yet—that has not happened yet. That change in mindset that would result in police and the justice system and society st large to value women and children and gay boys and young men enough to think that it was not only wrong, but criminally wrong to abuse women and children and young gay boys and men.

I completely disagree with this. Who in particular are you accusing? Everyone? Society in general? No. Abuse of children, gay boys and men, women, and men, and anyone else is wrong. Society knows this. Corruption exists, but it is corruption. It isn't mainstream accepted culture. And if we didn't go chasing after consenting adults, and didn't have such sex-negative preachy religious or quasi-religious attitudes about sex, a lot more of this could be brought into the open and a lot more resources could be freed up to rescue the abused. As Tom noted, this is already happening in Toronto pretty well. The folks I know who work in the sex industry here haven't been and don't know anybody who has been arrested, despite the law having changed to make their activities (well those of their clients) illegal. The police have their priorities right.

I'm not 'accusing' anyone.

You are among those who claim that legalization allows cops to pursue crimes against prostitutes. Why can't they do that now?

There is no reason that they cannot.

I'm interested in the reasons they do not. And why it is that you are so certain that everybody's mind will change or even just law enforcement will change its mind if prostitution is legalized.

The truth is that law enforcement pursues criminal cases that they think matter. Ask any Indigenous woman in Canada.

 

[Toni]

Can you please post some links that support your claims that legalization reduces assaults and murders of prostitutes?

Ya, try every other thread on the topic. I won't be googling anything about prostitution at work to repost links, but it's basically about their being able to screen clients, interact with them without having to meet them in risky places, have a regulated work environment and a whole bunch of other stuff. You can start by searching anything said by any sex workers' rights organization ever if you're interested in ignoring them on your own.

I won’t ask you to explain why it us that the legal system takes seriously crimes against legal prostitutes but not crimes against illegal prostitutes.

Well, that's good because I never made any such claim, so not having to explain something I'm not arguing makes things easier for me. I don't really know what you're saying here.

Prostitutes can and do screen clients now. Unless they are controlled by pimps and brothels. Those won't disappear under legalization.

FWIW, I've read information put out by sex worker's rights organizations, by former prostitutes and current prostitutes (for and against legalization, including some who oppose legalization because it wasn't effective at protecting them when they worked as legal prostitutes.)

I've only ever posted links on my own time. I've never read or posted on this forum from work. So, I know it's possible to do both outside of work and still have a family life/personal life, even with long ass commutes.

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

And STD testing. Have legalized brothels where they can work and make them known so johns can use them without fear of getting into trouble or of supporting sex trafficking etc.

Also, make the STD testing of the sex workers known in these legalized brothels. That's 3 good reasons for a john to go to one of these brothels. Safer from STD, completely legal, and clearer conscience knowing low likelihood of abuse to the girls.

Johns seem to have zero problem locating prostitutes now.

Sure. Its not hard. Usually they are on the street, where they are in grave danger. They are there because its been made illegal to have brothels, security, etc. This was a pivotal point in Bedford. Forcing them into dark alleyways and removing their ability to vet clients by making their work illegal, taking away forums like Backpage, etc, puts them in MORE danger, not less. They will tell you this themselves if you care to listen.

If I could find a prostitute, I'm damn sure every cop in town knows who is in the trade and where they are and what they are doing and with whom. And yet no one is ever busted for prostitution in my town.

And why should they be? You arrest the hooker (the johns will flee and you'll need to organize stings to catch them) and she'll be back out on the street again not long after you release her. If the cops can really get a good sense of what they are doing with whom (which isn't all THAT easy) that's actually a tool they can use for catching trafficking and abuse.

STD testing is available now and for free for those who need it at no cost.

That's great if true. Is this known to the sex workers?

STD testing at brothels protects clients only, not the prostitutes.

First, that's not true. The guys who see sex workers tend to see multiple sex workers, so it is protecting sex workers. Second, even if this was true, it would still be a big benefit. Protect the clients from STD and you protect their future sex partners from STD.

There is nothing--not one goddamn thing that prevents any of the protections you suggest from being in place now. Except that it cuts into the profit margins of those who exploit sex workers.

And they can exploit said sex workers more easily because it is tucked away in the shadows, the abused women fear and distrust the police, and the culture is sex-negative.

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

You are among those who claim that legalization allows cops to pursue crimes against prostitutes. Why can't they do that now?

They do.

They could do it more if more victims came forward and more johns came forward who witnessed or suspected such abuse. Making the industry illegal makes that less frequent. By making johns criminals, how many do you think will come forward to help abused women? More or less than if you don't threaten them with prison and public shame for doing so?

I'm interested in the reasons they do not. And why it is that you are so certain that everybody's mind will change or even just law enforcement will change its mind if prostitution is legalized.

Everybody's mind won't change immediately. That will take time and a shift in culture. Take the shame and fear of police away over time though, and I think you'd see quite a big difference.

The truth is that law enforcement pursues criminal cases that they think matter.

Do you think that branding people as criminals makes them climb or descend this heirarchy of who you say people including the police think matters?

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

Prostitutes can and do screen clients now. Unless they are controlled by pimps and brothels. Those won't disappear under legalization.

Seriously, read Bedford. Read the research on this. Backpage was a HUGE screening tool. It wasn't perfect, but it sure did help. Walking the street isn't easy and it isn't safe.

 

[southernhybrid]

I don't have time to read the very long study, as I have an appointment soon. So, I will only highlight a tiny bit and if some of you have the time, please read it.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5529480/

The Harmful Workings of Criminalization
There is a steadily growing literature evincing how a repressive approach toward commercial sex is at odds with public health and human rights principles (cf. Platt & Grenfell, 2016). The direct and indirect pathways through which criminalization exerts harm are becoming increasingly understood. One of the key principles is that criminalization fuels stigma, by framing commercial sex as immoral, illicit, and unlawful, by declining sex workers’ (human and worker) rights and by powering negative opinions. Stigmatized people imputed a “spoiled identity” (Goffman, 1963) run a higher risk of being undervalued, socially excluded, and discriminated against. Some of the specificities at work in the case of sex workers are described below.

Let me see if I can find something else before I have to leave.

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

One of the key principles is that criminalization fuels stigma, by framing commercial sex as immoral, illicit, and unlawful, by declining sex workers’ (human and worker) rights and by powering negative opinions. Stigmatized people imputed a “spoiled identity” (Goffman, 1963) run a higher risk of being undervalued, socially excluded, and discriminated against. Some of the specificities at work in the case of sex workers are described below.

Exactly what I'm saying.

 

[southernhybrid]

https://www.harpersbazaar.com/culture/politics/a20067359/why-prostitution-should-be-legal/

At least, it isn’t the case in the United States. There are a great many countries where sex work is legal, such as New Zealand, which decriminalized sex work in 2003. The results of the Prostitution Reform Act have been beneficial for sex workers. A study from the Christchurch School of Medicine found that “90 percent of sex workers believed the PRA gave them employment, legal and health and safety rights. A substantial 64 percent found it easier to refuse clients. Significantly, 57 percent said police attitudes to sex workers changed for the better.” Prostitutes also reported being able to go to the police when they were hurt or threatened, and one sex worker successfully sued a brothel owner for sexual harassment.

I almost forgot about the fact that when sex work is legal, the workers are more likely to report any assaults to the police. This rarely happens when it's illegal.

 

[Toni]

https://www.harpersbazaar.com/culture/politics/a20067359/why-prostitution-should-be-legal/

At least, it isn’t the case in the United States. There are a great many countries where sex work is legal, such as New Zealand, which decriminalized sex work in 2003. The results of the Prostitution Reform Act have been beneficial for sex workers. A study from the Christchurch School of Medicine found that “90 percent of sex workers believed the PRA gave them employment, legal and health and safety rights. A substantial 64 percent found it easier to refuse clients. Significantly, 57 percent said police attitudes to sex workers changed for the better.” Prostitutes also reported being able to go to the police when they were hurt or threatened, and one sex worker successfully sued a brothel owner for sexual harassment.

I almost forgot about the fact that when sex work is legal, the workers are more likely to report any assaults to the police. This rarely happens when it's illegal.

It doesn't stop illegal sex work and it doesn't protect illegal sex workers. Or children.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12025066

- - - Updated - - -

https://www.harpersbazaar.com/culture/politics/a20067359/why-prostitution-should-be-legal/

At least, it isn’t the case in the United States. There are a great many countries where sex work is legal, such as New Zealand, which decriminalized sex work in 2003. The results of the Prostitution Reform Act have been beneficial for sex workers. A study from the Christchurch School of Medicine found that “90 percent of sex workers believed the PRA gave them employment, legal and health and safety rights. A substantial 64 percent found it easier to refuse clients. Significantly, 57 percent said police attitudes to sex workers changed for the better.” Prostitutes also reported being able to go to the police when they were hurt or threatened, and one sex worker successfully sued a brothel owner for sexual harassment.

I almost forgot about the fact that when sex work is legal, the workers are more likely to report any assaults to the police. This rarely happens when it's illegal.

For one thing, police aren't likely to do much about it, just as 20 years ago, they did little about women who were assaulted by their husbands.

 

[southernhybrid]

https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2016/05/amnesty-international-publishes-policy-and-research-on-protection-of-sex-workers-rights/

One more before I leave. I am a member of Amnesty International. It's one of a few charities that I support with small financial donations. I greatly respect its work. So, I'm point their view on this topic.

Extensive research, including four geographically specific reports published alongside Amnesty International’s policy today, shows that sex workers are often subject to horrific human rights abuses. This is in part due to criminalization, which further endangers and marginalizes them and impedes their ability to seek protection from violence and legal and social services.

“Sex workers have told us how criminalization enables the police to harass them and not prioritise their complaints and safety,” said Tawanda Mutasah.

Rather than focusing on protecting sex workers from violence and crime, law enforcement officials in many countries focus on prohibiting sex work through surveillance, harassment and raids.

Amnesty International’s research shows that sex workers often get no, or very little, protection from abuse or legal redress, even in countries where the act of selling sex itself is legal.

Of course, nothing, including legalization will protect sex workers all of the time, but imo, it's better to make it legal than for it to remain criminalized. Apparently, from my links and many other things I've read, sex workers feel safer when their work is legal. Plus, I do agree with with JP, that the people that engage in this type of work should be treated more respectfully.

 

[Tom Sawyer]

For one thing, police aren't likely to do much about it, just as 20 years ago, they did little about women who were assaulted by their husbands.

But they do seem to be doing something about it. Every few weeks I see a new article about the Toronto police making a new arrest involving human trafficking. That indicates they're taking it pretty seriously and devoting resources to the matter. If the police in your town aren't doing anything about the obvious sex slavery happening out in the open, that would seem to be an issue to bring up with the police in your town, not an issue with policing in general.

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

For one thing, police aren't likely to do much about it, just as 20 years ago, they did little about women who were assaulted by their husbands.

But they do seem to be doing something about it. Every few weeks I see a new article about the Toronto police making a new arrest involving human trafficking. That indicates they're taking it pretty seriously and devoting resources to the matter. If the police in your town aren't doing anything about the obvious sex slavery happening out in the open, that would seem to be an issue to bring up with the police in your town, not an issue with policing in general.

And maybe the police aren't coming to rescue them there because as Toni said, they are devalued and not prioritized. And maybe, as southernhybrid just linked to, that's because they are marginalized and branded as immoral and criminal because of their job and the societal attitudes against it and criminalization of it. Maybe Toronto has a more sex-positive culture than wherever Toni's town is? Do people there care more about victims of human trafficking or about pay-for-play sex shaming?

 

[Toni]

Also, make the STD testing of the sex workers known in these legalized brothels. That's 3 good reasons for a john to go to one of these brothels. Safer from STD, completely legal, and clearer conscience knowing low likelihood of abuse to the girls.

Johns seem to have zero problem locating prostitutes now.

Sure. Its not hard. Usually they are on the street, where they are in grave danger. They are there because its been made illegal to have brothels, security, etc. This was a pivotal point in Bedford. Forcing them into dark alleyways and removing their ability to vet clients by making their work illegal, taking away forums like Backpage, etc, puts them in MORE danger, not less. They will tell you this themselves if you care to listen.

Where I live they are not on the street.

There is nothing that prevents prostitutes from vetting clients now that would be easier if prostitution were legal. Unless you can explain to me how legalization changes the vetting process.

If I could find a prostitute, I'm damn sure every cop in town knows who is in the trade and where they are and what they are doing and with whom. And yet no one is ever busted for prostitution in my town.

And why should they be? You arrest the hooker (the johns will flee and you'll need to organize stings to catch them) and she'll be back out on the street again not long after you release her. If the cops can really get a good sense of what they are doing with whom (which isn't all THAT easy) that's actually a tool they can use for catching trafficking and abuse.

STD testing is available now and for free for those who need it at no cost.

That's great if true. Is this known to the sex workers?[/quote]

Why would they not know? And please explain to me how free STD testing protects prostitutes? It protects johns, who, btw, are not required to be tested prior to engaging in sex with a certified clean prostitute.

STD testing at brothels protects clients only, not the prostitutes.

First, that's not true.[/quote]

It is. The prostitute is required to have a 'clean' test to work. The client is not tested.

The guys who see sex workers tend to see multiple sex workers, so it is protecting sex workers.

No, the fact that guys who see sex workers tend to see multiple sex workers further endangers sex workers. It increases their risk of exposure because their clients are not tested and certified 'clean' or disease free.

There is also a lag between when an individual is infected and when the infection is detectable by the newest, best testing available. This period of time happens to be the period of time when say, HIV is most transmittable. Please don't challenge me about this. I have professional expertise. It was my job for many years to know this.

Second, even if this was true, it would still be a big benefit. Protect the clients from STD and you protect their future sex partners from STD.

You mean the little woman at home, right?

Sex workers typically engage in sex with dozens of partners in a given week, exposing themselves dozens of times to the potential of contracting any number of STIs, including some which are not curable and some which have a serious negative impact on future health and reproductive health. If you only test the sex workers, you only protect the clients. You are not advocating testing the clients. You are not actually serious about protecting sex workers.

And they can exploit said sex workers more easily because it is tucked away in the shadows, the abused women fear and distrust the police, and the culture is sex-negative.

Being opposed to sexual exploitation is not the same thing as being sex negative. In fact, it's sex positive. Prostitutes don't work in shadows if I can identify how to find a sex worker in my small town with zero problem. Zero. It's not a secret.

 

[Toni]

For one thing, police aren't likely to do much about it, just as 20 years ago, they did little about women who were assaulted by their husbands.

But they do seem to be doing something about it. Every few weeks I see a new article about the Toronto police making a new arrest involving human trafficking. That indicates they're taking it pretty seriously and devoting resources to the matter. If the police in your town aren't doing anything about the obvious sex slavery happening out in the open, that would seem to be an issue to bring up with the police in your town, not an issue with policing in general.

I thought prostitution was legal in Canada?

If it is, why is there an issue with sex trafficking?

My apologies if I misunderstood that prostitution was legal in Canada.

 

[Tom Sawyer]

For one thing, police aren't likely to do much about it, just as 20 years ago, they did little about women who were assaulted by their husbands.

But they do seem to be doing something about it. Every few weeks I see a new article about the Toronto police making a new arrest involving human trafficking. That indicates they're taking it pretty seriously and devoting resources to the matter. If the police in your town aren't doing anything about the obvious sex slavery happening out in the open, that would seem to be an issue to bring up with the police in your town, not an issue with policing in general.

And maybe the police aren't coming to rescue them there because as Toni said, they are devalued and not prioritized. And maybe, as southernhybrid just linked to, that's because they are marginalized and branded as immoral and criminal because of their job and the societal attitudes against it and criminalization of it. Maybe Toronto has a more sex-positive culture than wherever Toni's town is? Do people there care more about victims of human trafficking or about pay-for-play sex shaming?

I think it has to do with the fact that if you are able to make a better distinction between the consensual and non-consensual aspects of the industry, it's easier to target the non-consensual parts without worrying about the consensual ones. If police in her town just think that adults fucking each other ranks below most every other crime that its limited police resources can devote time to and they don't know if the places she's speaking of involve sex slaves or willing adults, then it's less of a priority to take the time to find that out and perhaps end up wasting a couple weeks of their time to just have to arrest some ladies who were trying to make some easy money so as to justify the department's expenditures on it. When you can better target the nefarious aspects of the industry because the legitimate parts of it operate more openly, that's less of a concern.

Then again, you also get places like Amsterdam where there's a shit ton of human trafficking but no will at all to do anything about it because nobody wants to impact tourist dollars with a bunch of articles about crack downs on the prostitution industry. So, the ability to make the distinction needs to be paired with a willingness to act upon that ability.

- - - Updated - - -

For one thing, police aren't likely to do much about it, just as 20 years ago, they did little about women who were assaulted by their husbands.

But they do seem to be doing something about it. Every few weeks I see a new article about the Toronto police making a new arrest involving human trafficking. That indicates they're taking it pretty seriously and devoting resources to the matter. If the police in your town aren't doing anything about the obvious sex slavery happening out in the open, that would seem to be an issue to bring up with the police in your town, not an issue with policing in general.

I thought prostitution was legal in Canada?

If it is, why is there an issue with sex trafficking?

My apologies if I misunderstood that prostitution was legal in Canada.

Umm ... because legalized prostitution brings with it an increase in illegal sex trafficking?

You've posted the links to those studies yourself and I've specifically referenced that point in pretty much every one of my posts.

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

Second, even if this was true, it would still be a big benefit. Protect the clients from STD and you protect their future sex partners from STD.

You mean the little woman at home, right?

I mean everyone he then has sex with. Yes, that includes the wives of married men who see sex workers. Is your moral outrage at a guy cheating on his wife and seeing hookers going to stop you from wanting to protect said wife from an STD he could catch without tested sex workers?

Sex workers typically engage in sex with dozens of partners in a given week, exposing themselves dozens of times to the potential of contracting any number of STIs, including some which are not curable and some which have a serious negative impact on future health and reproductive health. If you only test the sex workers, you only protect the clients. You are not advocating testing the clients. You are not actually serious about protecting sex workers.

Testing anybody helps. How do you propose we regulate things so that the johns are tested? Are you endorsing legalized prostitution with john licenses? Like getting a driver's license, but for banging hookers? That would present some interesting challenges in implementation and enforcement, don't you think? Not quite as practical as licensing and testing the sex workers.

And they can exploit said sex workers more easily because it is tucked away in the shadows, the abused women fear and distrust the police, and the culture is sex-negative.

Being opposed to sexual exploitation is not the same thing as being sex negative. In fact, it's sex positive.

How many times do we all have to tell you this? We all oppose sexual exploitation.

Prostitutes don't work in shadows if I can identify how to find a sex worker in my small town with zero problem. Zero. It's not a secret.

It is shamed. And in many places, it is very much a secret, and very much has vulnerable women made more vulnerable by having to walk around on dimly lit street corners. Again, read the Bedford decision. Your town doesn't represent everywhere.

Having security and a safe regulated working place (ie, a licensed brothel) further adds to safety. Having a union and sex positive society and sex workers feeling they can openly go to the police and even sue brothels like in New Zealand is even better.

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

My apologies if I misunderstood that prostitution was legal in Canada.

Just to clarify, here are the facts about Canada:

Prior to the Bedford decision (linked to above), prostitution itself was legal in Canada, but a lot surrounding it was illegal, effectively making it illegal. This included "living off the avails of prostitution", "communicating for the purposes of prostitution", and "being found in a common baudy house" (brothel). In the Bedford decision the Supreme Court of Canada struck these laws down, finding them unconstitutional, because they both put sex workers in harm's way (the bigger reason for the decision) and impinged the freedom of the sex workers without justification (the lesser reason for the decision).

After striking the laws down, the federal government, under Harper at the time (Trudeau was elected later), enacted new anti-prostitution laws following the nordic model. Now (for the first time in Canada) buying sexual services is actually illegal, but selling them isn't. The legal community in Canada believes this to be unconstitutional for the same reasons as the old laws were, and believes these laws will eventually be struck down, but the police have been for the most part ignoring them, and to my knowledge nobody is being arrested under them. The public doesn't really know this though and there is still shame and fear of police in the sex worker communities. Its on the decline, which is good, but full legalization and regulation and making that as publicized as possible would really help things.

The loss of backpage did drive some sex workers into the streets and into dangerous situations (this has somewhat but not fully rebounded as other websites have taken its place; none is as prominent yet), especially those who are less accepted by society, such as trans sex workers. As tolerant and progressive as Toronto is, the difference between how trans street walkers in Toronto and ladyboys in Bangkok are regarded by their respective societies is vast. In Bangkok, the ladyboys are totally accepted. In Toronto, trans sex workers seem to be lacking that progressive social change for acceptance that other trans people have going for them. They are prime targets for hate crime.

Trudeau was on record a while before he was elected saying he supported legalization of prostitution, but it isn't a top priority for him. He just got marijuana legalized. Maybe he'll get prostitution legalized in the not too distant future.

 

[Tom Sawyer]

Maybe he'll get prostitution legalized in the not too distant future.

Ya, based on the latest polls resulting from his corrupt fuckups with SNC Lavalin, he's got about six months to get on that.

 

[Toni]

Umm ... because legalized prostitution brings with it an increase in illegal sex trafficking?

You've posted the links to those studies yourself and I've specifically referenced that point in pretty much every one of my posts.

Thank you.

This is the major objection that I have to legalized prostitution. It seems to increase (or at best, not significantly decrease) human sex trafficking.

 

[Toni]

My apologies if I misunderstood that prostitution was legal in Canada.

Just to clarify, here are the facts about Canada:

Prior to the Bedford decision (linked to above), prostitution itself was legal in Canada, but a lot surrounding it was illegal, effectively making it illegal. This included "living off the avails of prostitution", "communicating for the purposes of prostitution", and "being found in a common baudy house" (brothel). In the Bedford decision the Supreme Court of Canada struck these laws down, finding them unconstitutional, because they both put sex workers in harm's way (the bigger reason for the decision) and impinged the freedom of the sex workers without justification (the lesser reason for the decision).

After striking the laws down, the federal government, under Harper at the time (Trudeau was elected later), enacted new anti-prostitution laws following the nordic model. Now (for the first time in Canada) buying sexual services is actually illegal, but selling them isn't. The legal community in Canada believes this to be unconstitutional for the same reasons as the old laws were, and believes these laws will eventually be struck down, but the police have been for the most part ignoring them, and to my knowledge nobody is being arrested under them. The public doesn't really know this though and there is still shame and fear of police in the sex worker communities. Its on the decline, which is good, but full legalization and regulation and making that as publicized as possible would really help things.

The loss of backpage did drive some sex workers into the streets and into dangerous situations (this has somewhat but not fully rebounded as other websites have taken its place; none is as prominent yet), especially those who are less accepted by society, such as trans sex workers. As tolerant and progressive as Toronto is, the difference between how trans street walkers in Toronto and ladyboys in Bangkok are regarded by their respective societies is vast. In Bangkok, the ladyboys are totally accepted. In Toronto, trans sex workers seem to be lacking that progressive social change for acceptance that other trans people have going for them. They are prime targets for hate crime.

Trudeau was on record a while before he was elected saying he supported legalization of prostitution, but it isn't a top priority for him. He just got marijuana legalized. Maybe he'll get prostitution legalized in the not too distant future.

Backpage was a dangerous situation for a lot of the prostitutes, particularly the underage persons who were sold there and all those who were trafficked through Backpage.

Please tell me why you are not so concerned about all of those who were unwillingly sold and who were underage when they were sold as you are about those who are now 'forced' to go into the streets---as though it isn't easy enough to sell sex via the internet anyway, without Backpage.