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Kent Hovind: Broccoli man

In science we aren't supposed to ask 'why' questions. Only 'how' questions.
Appealing to spontaneity of the gaps because the how (agent/mechanism) is undetected is tantamount to invoking magic.

We have a natural mechanism that explains how simple molecules made of constituents found in the Earth's crust began to self replicate in the presence of energy gradients found in undersea hydrothermal vents (see my previous post). Just like we have natural mechanisms that explain how relatively small localized gradients in temperature and moisture content in the Earth's atmosphere can give rise to Cat 5 hurricanes. The problem is not that answers don't exist, but that you don't like the answers.

It's the scientific equivalent of saying evolution works in mysterious ways.

The natural processes which drive evolution are well understood, and can be quantified using mathematical models. There is no mystery here, other than in the minds of creationists who either don't like the answers, or are too lazy and/or too dishonest to do some research in search of the facts.

HOW did rocks turn into living creatures?

How does god turn rocks into living creatures?
 
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Trees are made entirely out of sunshine, air, and dirt.

Evolution notwithstanding, if you consider the idea that living things could be 'made from dirt' to be 'crazy' or even 'surprising', then you are demonstrating a deep and horrifying ignorance of reality.
 
Appealing to spontaneity of the gaps because the how (agent/mechanism) is undetected is tantamount to invoking magic.

Every day, all around us, water spontaneously evaporates from oceans and lakes to form rain clouds, which, upon releasing a critical state, spontaneously release their moisture in the form of rain and snow. Water spontaneously flows downhill, as do massive bodies in the presence of curved spacetime. Seeds spontaneously germinate in soil to form plants. The vast populations of bacteria living in our bodies spontaneously change to become resistant to antibiotics. Small variations in atmospheric temperature and pressure spontaneously give rise to hurricanes and typhoons, terrifying in their ferocity and energy. The universe spontaneously and relentlessly moves from a state of low entropy to a state of higher entropy, and it has been doing so since its inception. In fact, never once in the history of science have we ever come to the conclusion that supernatural magic is required to explain some phenomenon we observe in the natural world.

But here you are, apparently making the claim that there exists an invisible supernatural creature that nobody has ever seen or heard from, constantly moving dials on a magic control panel to adjust every aspect of our universe. Stupid idea? No. I'd say we left the realm of stupid ideas behind some time ago. We are now front and center witnesses to a reenactment of Hovind's classic work, "The Story Of How Stupid Ideas Went On Parade Down Main Street"!
 
In fact, never once in the history of science have we ever come to the conclusion that supernatural magic is required to explain some phenomenon we observe in the natural world.
The difference there being:

1) We don't know...yet.

and

2) You don't know, therefore, GOD!
Not to be confused with the other idiot:
3) You don't know, therefore ALLAH!
and
4) You don't know, therefore LIZARDMEN!
5) through 30000)...Therefore etc.
 
Trees are made entirely out of sunshine, air, and dirt.

Evolution notwithstanding, if you consider the idea that living things could be 'made from dirt' to be 'crazy' or even 'surprising', then you are demonstrating a deep and horrifying ignorance of reality.

He would also be demonstrating an ignorance of Biblical scripture, namely Genesis 2:7:

then the Lord God formed the man of dust from the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living creature.
 
“Let the earth bring forth living creatures..."
 
“Let the earth bring forth living creatures..."

You do know about it. Why were you making such a fuss then?

So, are you going to tell us how Biblegod created life from non-life? How he designed the first self-replicating molecules, how he figured out what elements he needed to form the first strands of RNA or whatever he used to communicate genetic information, how he gave this proto-cell a membrane to hold it together? And why he chose to burden our cells with a horribly complex, inefficient, multi-step process to turn food into energy?

I have plenty of other questions, but I don't want to overwhelm you. If you would be gracious enough to share some of your knowledge with us, we can move on to the others later.
 
“Let the earth bring forth living creatures..."

You do know about it. Why were you making such a fuss then?

So, are you going to tell us how Biblegod created life from non-life? How he designed the first self-replicating molecules, how he figured out what elements he needed to form the first strands of RNA or whatever he used to communicate genetic information, how he gave this proto-cell a membrane to hold it together? And why he chose to burden our cells with a horribly complex, inefficient, multi-step process to turn food into energy?

I have plenty of other questions, but I don't want to overwhelm you. If you would be gracious enough to share some of your knowledge with us, we can move on to the others later.

I'll add...when did gawd realize that his creation of life from dirt was horribly flawed, and that he'd better stuff an endosymbiotic bacterium in there to sort out energy production?
 
“Let the earth bring forth living creatures..."

You do know about it. Why were you making such a fuss then?

So, are you going to tell us how Biblegod created life from non-life? How he designed the first self-replicating molecules, how he figured out what elements he needed to form the first strands of RNA or whatever he used to communicate genetic information, how he gave this proto-cell a membrane to hold it together? And why he chose to burden our cells with a horribly complex, inefficient, multi-step process to turn food into energy?

I have plenty of other questions, but I don't want to overwhelm you. If you would be gracious enough to share some of your knowledge with us, we can move on to the others later.

I'll add...when did gawd realize that his creation of life from dirt was horribly flawed, and that he'd better stuff an endosymbiotic bacterium in there to sort out energy production?

Easy now, creationists are a skittish bunch. You want to sneak up on them, not just bang them over the head with a blunt instrument like "So what about those mitochondria and chloroplasts then? Is that a daft idea or what?"
 
The gap is where you insert the word "spontaneous" instead of "cause(s) unknown".

...unlike in biblical theism where God is the known cause. (No gap to fill.)

Example?
 
I'll add...when did gawd realize that his creation of life from dirt was horribly flawed, and that he'd better stuff an endosymbiotic bacterium in there to sort out energy production?

Easy now, creationists are a skittish bunch. You want to sneak up on them, not just bang them over the head with a blunt instrument like "So what about those mitochondria and chloroplasts then? Is that a daft idea or what?"


Nah...the only way to get a cretinist's attention is beating over the head with a blunt biology text book. They have the attention span of a mayfly in a hurricane. And the IQ of Hovind's broccoli.
 
So what about those mitochondria and chloroplasts then? Is that a daft idea or what?"

This is fantastic news - Science has discovered something here. Now man can fix this (apparently) flawed idea , although in scientific terms i.e. non-creation: it should have taken eons and eons of years by the process called "natural selection", which somehow isn't quite a natural-selection process but is rather a : very lucky to still be here process... against such great great odds (considering it being a daft design).
 
So what about those mitochondria and chloroplasts then? Is that a daft idea or what?"

This is fantastic news - Science has discovered something here. Now man can fix this (apparently) flawed idea , although in scientific terms i.e. non-creation: it should have taken eons and eons of years by the process called "natural selection", which somehow isn't quite a natural-selection process but is rather a : very lucky to still be here process... against such great great odds (considering it being a daft design).

There is nothing to fix. We were talking about the fact that eukaryotic cells contain mitochondria which power the energy needs of the cell. And, plant cells contain chloroplasts which are used to convert energy from the Sun into sugar. Both mitochondria and chloroplasts are believed to have started out as free living bacteria which were assimilated into the cells of other living things at some point in the history of life. In fact, mitochondria still contain their own DNA, distinct from the nucleic DNA of the organism.

If you believe an intelligent designer is responsible for the design and creation of living organisms, you would have to explain why this designer started out with a flawed design, then apparently realized it had fucked up, and proceeded to stuff bacteria into the cells of organisms to fix the original design flaws.

I have no idea what you are talking about with regard to natural selection. I don't know if this is caused by a lack of clear thinking, or a poor grasp of basic composition skills. Natural selection filters genetic changes in populations of living things, and increases the survival odds of changes that increase the fitness of the animal. Most creationists do not believe natural selection happens, and yet you seem to arguing that it is a design process?
 
There is nothing to fix. We were talking about the fact that eukaryotic cells contain mitochondria which power the energy needs of the cell. And, plant cells contain chloroplasts which are used to convert energy from the Sun into sugar. Both mitochondria and chloroplasts are *believed to have started out as free living bacteria which were assimilated into the cells of other living things at some point in the history of life. In fact, mitochondria still contain their own DNA, distinct from the nucleic DNA of the organism.

I don't pretend I am clever enough to have any in-depth dialogue in this particular department but curiosly : Does still containing their own DNA becoma a hindrance somehow? Mitocondria and cloroplasts seem to be functioning and working quite well from your discription of the two.

If you believe an intelligent designer is responsible for the design and creation of living organisms, you would have to explain why this designer started out with a flawed design, then apparently realized it had fucked up, and proceeded to stuff bacteria into the cells of organisms to fix the original design flaws.

Original design flaws according to: the "believed to have started out "theory". Only just recently in our own time we realised "junk DNA" is not actually junk DNA after all. Having our appendix removed not-so-long-ago with the "belief" that the appendix was a useless part of the anatomy ... a previous flaw designed argument no doubt , and in fact it was later realised in our lifetime , the appendix is part of the immune system.

Sort of what Lion highlighted
The gap is where you insert the word "spontaneous" instead of "cause(s) unknown".

...unlike in biblical theism where God is the known cause. (No gap to fill.)


I have no idea what you are talking about with regard to natural selection. I don't know if this is caused by a lack of clear thinking, or a poor grasp of basic composition skills. Natural selection filters genetic changes in populations of living things, and increases the survival odds of changes that increase the fitness of the animal. Most creationists do not believe natural selection happens, and yet you seem to arguing that it is a design process?

Creationist believe in some much smaller form of evolution not like the natural-selection proposed by atheists.

I was also posting tongue-in-cheek trying to be ironic (not so well apparently) but I can take and accept the above: lack of clear thinking or poor grasp of basic composition skills but.... I will NOT tolerate : I lack a sense of humour!!!
 
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This is fantastic news - Science has discovered something here. Now man can fix this (apparently) flawed idea , although in scientific terms i.e. non-creation: it should have taken eons and eons of years by the process called "natural selection", which somehow isn't quite a natural-selection process but is rather a : very lucky to still be here process... against such great great odds (considering it being a daft design).

That post doesn't make any sense...especially in "scientific terms". As is often the case, it is "Not Even Wrong", which to quote RationalWiki, implies...

that not only is someone not making a valid point in a discussion, but they don't even understand the nature of the discussion itself, or the things that need to be understood in order to participate.
 
Scientific terms .. ok then maybe I can use "Atheist belief" which is often about having a discussion with two opposite povs regardless of "nature of discussion".
 
I don't pretend I am clever enough to have any in-depth dialogue in this particular department but curiosly : Does still containing their own DNA becoma a hindrance somehow? Mitocondria and cloroplasts seem to be functioning and working quite well from your discription of the two.

Original design flaws according to: the "believed to have started out "theory". Only just recently in our own time we realised "junk DNA" is not actually junk DNA after all. Having our appendix removed not-so-long-ago with the "belief" that the appendix was a useless part of the anatomy ... a previous flaw designed argument no doubt , and in fact it was later realised in our lifetime , the appendix is part of the immune system.

I don't think you understand what is being discussed. Free living (prokaryotic) bacteria were assimilated into prokaryotic organisms to form endosymbiotic systems, and this happened billions of years ago. All complex organisms today use cells that evolved from these basic prototypes. The systems that evolved were more efficient at performing certain cellular functions like providing energy, using radiant energy to build sugars etc than the original prokaryotic cells that existed before the formation of the eukaryotic cells. This is not to say that the eukaryotic cells are perfect, they are not. The way even modern eukaryotic cells get energy from food is complex and involves many convoluted steps. If you were to argue that living cells were designed by an intelligent entity, you would have to explain why:


1. a designer would first design prokaryotic cells, than change his mind 500 million years later, and inject some prokaryotic cells into other prokaryotic cells to form the first eukaryotic cells, and
2. why the energy producing mechanism in even modern eukaryotic cells are so unnecessarily involved and inefficient, i.e. NOT intelligently designed.

And while you are at it, you might want to explain why human and chicken embryos, among many others, start off with gill arches. Or why whales live in water but have lungs, and some of them even have small vestigial legs. Or why God created at least a dozen human-like species in the last 6 million years before he got to us, and then killed them all off. All of these things are explained by evolution, but are absurd in the context of an intelligent designer.

The much more reasonable explanation is that there is no intelligent designer involved, that modern eukaryotic cells evolved from older less sophisticated cells, and while they get the job done, they are not perfect. Which is how evolution works.



Sort of what Lion highlighted
The gap is where you insert the word "spontaneous" instead of "cause(s) unknown".

...unlike in biblical theism where God is the known cause. (No gap to fill.)

Theists don't KNOW that God is the cause; theists BELIEVE God is the cause. Big fucking difference! Theists don't have a lick of evidence to support their beliefs other than some stories written 2,000 years ago. Saying Goddidit doesn't actually answer real questions, it avoids them.

Example: Why is the sky blue?
Theist: Because God made it blue
Scientist: The sky is blue because certain portions/wavelengths of the light spectrum reaching the Earth gets scattered by dust and moisture in the atmosphere, and these wavelengths correspond to the part of the color spectrum we call blue.

There is no "spontaneity of the gaps", that was just Lion trying to be glib. Lion is glib a lot, but he almost never has anything factually meaningful to say.

Example: (a) I don't know who ate the last cookie. (b) Therefore, God ate last cookie.
(b) does NOT follow from (a).

Meanwhile, we are still waiting for LionIRC to step up and tell us how God turned rocks into living things. He wasn't just making up shit when he said he knows this, right? Right?

...unlike in biblical theism where God is the known cause. (No gap to fill.)

Go on, fill in the gap.
 
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I don't think you understand what is being discussed. Free living (prokaryotic) bacteria were assimilated into prokaryotic organisms to form endosymbiotic systems, and this happened billions of years ago. All complex organisms today use cells that evolved from these basic prototypes. The systems that evolved were more efficient at performing certain cellular functions like providing energy, using radiant energy to build sugars etc than the original prokaryotic cells that existed before the formation of the eukaryotic cells. This is not to say that the eukaryotic cells are perfect, they are not. The way even modern eukaryotic cells get energy from food is complex and involves many convoluted steps.

If you were to argue that living cells were designed by an intelligent entity, you would have to explain why:

Theists would automatically say cells were designed simply by the theology i.e. the Creation. But to explain the theology via science obviously has always been a more or less one-sided affair , but arguments are morphing out of old concepts into new ones today for example: modern day apologists are engaging in quite good discussions and debates and getting better as we start to understand more and more each day. Using your (non-theist) notions of billions of years ago logical theories against you ...so to speak.

1. a designer would first design prokaryotic cells, than change his mind 500 million years later, and inject some prokaryotic cells into other prokaryotic cells to form the first eukaryotic cells, and
2. why the energy producing mechanism in even modern eukaryotic cells are so unnecessarily involved and inefficient, i.e. NOT intelligently designed.

1. The logic here seems to be certain to be sure of itself that this happened without out actual recorded data let alone be any available repeatable method . Otherwise (which also goes for no.2 ) it really is just a-jumping-the-gun like the notion of the "appendix" that was once thought to be useless while people had them removed.

And while you are at it, you might want to explain why human and chicken embryos, among many others, start off with gill arches. Or why whales live in water but have lungs, and some of them even have small vestigial legs.

Well I would need to find a little more on this but at the moment I'd say : Human and chicken embryos may look like every other sort of animal / creature embryo that look like having gill arches if all creatures have them ( I think I got that from one of Hovinds talks) . So curiously, I would wonder: do all creatures have them? If all embryos of all (or most) creatures have them and some creatures develope gills and others dont then perhaps these are just arches and not soley gill-arches.

I'll have to go for Kent Hovinds explanation which I thought made sense as I remember one of his talks, in regards to the whales vestigal legs which are not quite what people thought they were (vestigal legs). These parts are in the position of the pelvic area where it helped whales with positioning themsleves for mating and reproduction. Also studies mentioned at the smithsonian.com (of all places) agrees with Hovind here.

Or why God created at least a dozen human-like species in the last 6 million years before he got to us, and then killed them all off. All of these things are explained by evolution, but are absurd in the context of an intelligent designer.

The much more reasonable explanation is that there is no intelligent designer involved, that modern eukaryotic cells evolved from older less sophisticated cells, and while they get the job done, they are not perfect. Which is how evolution works.

The bible does say God destroyed the earth and the many creatures human-like and dinosaur-like in the great flood but not 6 million years ago of course.
Theists don't KNOW that God is the cause; theists BELIEVE God is the cause. Big fucking difference! Theists don't have a lick of evidence to support their beliefs other than some stories written 2,000 years ago. Saying Goddidit doesn't actually answer real questions, it avoids them.

It doesn't avoid them because its a different answer - when we say Goddit . The whole theme of the creation theology is NOT based on topics like the discussion of ukaryotic cells - or the lack of knowing much in this regard like myself. Besides .. No argument for Creation is lost - there are many reasons people have faith i.e. many various events in the biblical discriptions not forgetting variable personal experiences.

Belief ... that interesting state-of-mind seems to be a shared thing for theists and non-theists alike (just as YOU mention in your own post). With lines like : Both mitochondria and chloroplasts are "believed" to have started out as ... or with a certainty-like claim e.g. that 500 million years ago this would happen and that would turn into this etc. Unfortunately Its NOT as good enough nowadays as the very arguments used to be (like Junk DNA not so useless as first thought) . Not good evidence but a theory at best imo.
Example: Why is the sky blue?
Theist: Because God made it blue
Scientist: The sky is blue because certain portions/wavelengths of the light spectrum reaching the Earth gets scattered by dust and moisture in the atmosphere, and these wavelengths correspond to the part of the color spectrum we call blue.
Once upon a time maybe but now, in keeping with current times , with a slight alteration (updates on data, if you will) :

Example: Why is the sky blue?
Theist: Because God made it blue and do you know why its blue?
Scientist: The sky is blue because certain portions/wavelengths of the light spectrum reaching the Earth gets scattered by dust and moisture in the atmosphere, and these wavelengths correspond to the part of the color spectrum we call blue.
Theist: Yes that's right.



There is no "spontaneity of the gaps", that was just Lion trying to be glib. Lion is glib a lot, but he almost never has anything factually meaningful to say.

We'll I'll have to admit here (not that it was a hidden thing) and as coming from a different angle, I never knew much about the cosmological argument and a few others, (if I did at all) not untill I read Lion's and Remez's posts (plus others in discussion) and believe it or not : discovered who William Lane Craig was (genuine thanks to members on the forum ) I leave other theists to it , not needing to attempt to try and understand if I think its a little complex to delve into (I'm converted anyway).
 
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