Kissing in public and consent

[Toni]

When that kiss happened, people didn't realize that the soldier was drunk and just grabbed the first women he saw. The kiss was glamorized because nobody knew the truth about it.

Nearly everyone always knew he just grabbed the first women he saw. That is what made it so popular and glamorous to people, because it was a spontaneous act of joy and celebration. Since I first saw and heard of it in the 70's it has always been described that way. If it was just a guy and his girlfriend, no one would really have cared.
And the other people smiling and at laughing at it in the street around them (including Mendoza's girlfriend and future wife) saw him just walk up and grab the nurse. So, people knew it was non-consensual, they just didn't really think about it in those terms, especially given the context. It's also important to put it in it's context (that thing over-reacting dogmatists of all stripes love to ignore). People were engaged in spontaneous joy in the streets with lots of hugging of strangers and the kiss wasn't about sex. There are also reports of many similar acts that day, which reflect both the context of that day and the larger cultural norms, such as the fact that most leading-men in film grabbed and kissed women, not merely without consent but under protest.

I don't think it would happen today. If it did, it would be condemned.

For sure, but that's not entirely a good thing. It is a good that on a normal day, a guy grabbing and kissing a stranger would be more condemned than in the 40's when that kind of thing was standard leading-man behavior. It's not so good that many people today would condemn it just as strongly, even in this similar context of an extremely uncommon moment of spontaneous public celebration, and tell the women she should feel assaulted even if she didn't mind and thought "It's just a kiss and he meant no harm."
Today he would likely be arrested and/or fired, even if he had just hugged her in that situation.

He didn’t just grab the first woman he saw. He was on a date with another woman; they were seeing a movie when an announcement was made that the Japanese had surrendered. Everyone from the theatre poured into the streets. At the beginning of the war, (Pearl Harbor maybe?? Don’t remember that detail) the sailor had helped pull others to safety and had witnessed many nurses rushing in to treat wounded soldiers and sailors. When he saw the woman in what he took to be a nurse’s uniform, he just spontaneously grabbed and kissed her, in what for him was a shared sense of joy, comradely, and also gratitude—and doubtless, relief.

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

He didn’t just grab the first woman he saw. He was on a date with another woman; they were seeing a movie when an announcement was made that the Japanese had surrendered. Everyone from the theatre poured into the streets. At the beginning of the war, (Pearl Harbor maybe?? Don’t remember that detail) the sailor had helped pull others to safety and had witnessed many nurses rushing in to treat wounded soldiers and sailors. When he saw the woman in what he took to be a nurse’s uniform, he just spontaneously grabbed and kissed her, in what for him was a shared sense of joy, comradely, and also gratitude—and doubtless, relief.

Grabbing random women and kissing them is grabbing random women and kissing them. This background history doesn't excuse the behaviour. Its not like she freely and knowingly entered into a "kissing random strangers zone".

 

[Toni]

He didn’t just grab the first woman he saw. He was on a date with another woman; they were seeing a movie when an announcement was made that the Japanese had surrendered. Everyone from the theatre poured into the streets. At the beginning of the war, (Pearl Harbor maybe?? Don’t remember that detail) the sailor had helped pull others to safety and had witnessed many nurses rushing in to treat wounded soldiers and sailors. When he saw the woman in what he took to be a nurse’s uniform, he just spontaneously grabbed and kissed her, in what for him was a shared sense of joy, comradely, and also gratitude—and doubtless, relief.

Grabbing random women and kissing them is grabbing random women and kissing them. This background history doesn't excuse the behaviour. Its not like she freely and knowingly entered into a "kissing random strangers zone".

It wasn’t a ‘random woman.’ It was someone he saw as a comrade in arms—he grabbed her because he thought she was a nurse. She did not feel the same way about the experience. As is often the case. There seems to be no actual sexual motivation but rather spontaneous celebration. Similar spontaneous hugs and embraces happen at much less emotionally charged events such as concerts, and sporting events and even parades. And of course sometimes at tragedies or accidents. Not long ago I stopped to see if
my aide was needed at a multiple vehicle accident. There were definitely embraces and reassurances being offered there. No kissing but it wasn’t the end of a world war.

Please note that I was not excusing his actions in my earlier post. Then, as now, I was merely correcting inaccuracies in the telling of events.

As I stated earlier, it would be seen differently today. On multiple levels.

 

[J842P]

Actually, something sort of similar still occurs, and that is the New Years kiss.

I actively hide when the ball drops because everyone is trying to get other people to kiss, and I am a bundle of neuroses that can't handle that shit.

 

[TSwizzle]

Actually, something sort of similar still occurs, and that is the New Years kiss.

I actively hide when the ball drops because everyone is trying to get other people to kiss, and I am a bundle of neuroses that can't handle that shit.

Well it was handy when I was young, free and single but as an adult I can't stand it either.

 

[ruby sparks]

In about 20 years, someone in a hologram or virtual reality discussion will post an old picture of two people kissing under the mistletoe, and there will be general agreement that it would be 'viewed very differently now'.

Public order advice will be given on New Year's Eve, such as “If you bump into that special someone under the mistletoe tonight, remember that without consent it is rape #SeasonsGreetings”.

No wait. That's already happened.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/20...e-say-kissing-mistletoe-without-consent-rape/

 

[ruby sparks]

On a related note, I found this after googling, 'are hugs sexual harassment':

[YOUTUBE]https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=336&v=TMfStd3v330[/YOUTUBE]

 

[ruby sparks]

And on kissing (cheek-kissing) in particular:

[YOUTUBE]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T-VWbV6TJxU[/YOUTUBE]

 

[ruby sparks]

And here's an interesting one:

The Day I Went Around Giving Free Hugs to Strangers
https://personalexcellence.co/blog/hug/

Obviously, she asked first, so consent was obtained if there was a hug. But is it even ok to go around asking strangers in the street to hug with you? How does this differ, in principle from asking them to smile?

And it's not just women who do it.















and last but not least....





Free Hugs Campaign
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_Hugs_Campaign

Now, I admit that to me, the woman (in the 'The Day I Went Around Giving Free Hugs to Strangers' article) is not doing anything wrong, in fact to me she's doing mostly good (allowing that she may irritate or embarrass some 'targets'). Ditto for Novak Djokovic when he asked everyone in his audience to hug the person beside them. But somehow, the 'staff hugs' policy at fashion retailer Ted Baker is not ok, and a man in the street who says 'hey smile' to a passing woman is not good, and maybe someone who uses a certain brand of shaving razors could go up to such a guy and say, 'not cool, bro, not cool'. But I'm not sure why I say that. I guess it's because I think it more likely that the man's intent is somehow less....'right'.

The 'free hugs' people aren't so potentially iffy, imo, because they are standing passively, not approaching, physically, or perhaps verbally (though for all I know, they may actually ask passers-by as well as holding up a sign).

This is all slightly away, obviously, from the scenario of actually grabbing someone or kissing them, or trying to kiss them, without consent. And I guess we could end up saying, as several already have (including for the OP photo) that context and intent are important, which would cover the issue in principle, if not always in everyday practice, since contexts are often nuanced or part of social rituals/conventions, and intent uncertain.

Are there any 'golden rules' here, such as 'if someone feels it's wrong, it's wrong. Otherwise it's ok'? Even that may have limitations. Some people may have trouble discriminating, and not just someone with Down Syndrome, for example.

I myself have never, to my knowledge, had any problems navigating such situations in my own life, allowing that it's possible (though I hope not and don't think it's the case) that I may have done something another person thinks is a wrong, by which I suppose I mean a harassment.

 

[ruby sparks]

Actually, something sort of similar still occurs, and that is the New Years kiss.

I actively hide when the ball drops because everyone is trying to get other people to kiss, and I am a bundle of neuroses that can't handle that shit.

Well it was handy when I was young, free and single but as an adult I can't stand it either.

So, maybe (hypothetically) either or both of you would decline if offered. Perhaps you will face mild disapproval of the 'oh come on, it's only festive fun' variety or perhaps you won't even get that. Or, if you reluctantly accept an offer, for whatever reason, you probably wouldn't report the offerer in any official way, as a harasser.

But if someone were to repeatedly come up to you and dangle mistletoe above the space between the two of you and lean in with puckered lips, and you have declined each time, and it wasn't a drunken aunt staying at your house but a colleague at work, you might eventually report it, I guess.

As for scenarios in between those two, I guess that in some ways it's less clear when a 'reasonable threshold' is crossed. I guess anyone, at work on in the street, is able to complain in whatever way they choose, and it then becomes a matter for someone else, with authority or responsibility, to make a call. And there may be cases where people validly 'feel wronged' but it is not deemed by a (hopefully impartial) third party that they were. I'm not at all sure we want to get to a situation where something is 'wrong' just because a recipient thinks it is. At the same time, too many instances of wrong have been swept under the carpet in the past, with the victim's perceptions and perspective not heeded sufficiently.

Overall, I think it is, on balance, a good thing that we (societies) are becoming more sensitive to such issues, even if it's complicated and there are some drawbacks, even drawbacks which are potentially and actually very problematic, such as teachers (probably usually men but not always) not feeling able to comfort a distressed pupil, or people (usually men) not feeling they can go to the aid of someone (usually a child or woman).

 

[ruby sparks]

Just for illustration, a pic from around the same era or time as the OP pic, which I'm guessing most people would have no problem with, allowing that we would have to assume certain things, though it appears not to be the man's own child (pic was entitled 'Italian girl kisses soldier')



This, on the other hand, is surely very creepy:

[YOUTUBE]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z6Fe3cNWbQQ[/YOUTUBE]

And the video gets comments such as "This man belongs in hell. He is a sicko."

Others have noted, with surprise, that the mothers (who were sitting beside their children) did not seem to do anything about it. Yes, it might look surprising, to us, modern viewers, but I think we can understand why they didn't intervene, even if (as seems likely to be the case) they had misgivings.

This is the guy:

Bob Barker
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bob_Barker#Lawsuits

Now for all we know, the soldier in the above pic might have been a 'Bob Barker type', though for lack of evidence we tend to assume not, I suppose.

 

[TSwizzle]

Actually, something sort of similar still occurs, and that is the New Years kiss.

I actively hide when the ball drops because everyone is trying to get other people to kiss, and I am a bundle of neuroses that can't handle that shit.

Well it was handy when I was young, free and single but as an adult I can't stand it either.

So, maybe (hypothetically) either or both of you would decline if offered. Perhaps you will face mild disapproval of the 'oh come on, it's only festive fun' variety or perhaps you won't even get that. Or, if you reluctantly accept an offer, for whatever reason, you probably wouldn't report the offerer in any official way, as a harasser.

Women that know me are aware that I am uncomfortable with the ritual and back off.

But if someone were to repeatedly come up to you and dangle mistletoe above the space between the two of you and lean in with puckered lips, and you have declined each time, and it wasn't a drunken aunt staying at your house but a colleague at work, you might eventually report it, I guess.

Do people still do that with mistletoe ? How quaint. It was a thing at high school dances and that's the last time I saw mistletoe xx years ago. Depends on how fit the colleague is and if my wife is present.

 

[Lion IRC]

We still see TV and movie first kisses where neither party has explicitly sought and received consent for what they are about to do. They sort of just...go for it and hope it doesn't end badly.

 

[thebeave]

We still see TV and movie first kisses where neither party has explicitly sought and received consent for what they are about to do. They sort of just...go for it and hope it doesn't end badly.

And that's not the way it still is in real life?

 

[Lion IRC]

Amazingly enough the feminazis and PC SJW's haven't yet managed to overwhelm our heterosexual, natural, Darwinian impulses to make the first move and to have the first move made on us.

'Faint heart never won fair lady' sounds old-fashioned because it is - thousands of years old.