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Lack of Knowledge = God

Ramaraksha

Senior Member
Joined
Jun 16, 2009
Messages
667
Location
Chicago, IL
Basic Beliefs
Rational, Down-to-Earth
Back in the day when humans knew little about the universe, they believed the sun circled the earth because that is what they saw. the stars were little light-bulbs, it was a nice cozy place. And as Science got better and better and we knew more and more about the Universe, God has receded back and now it seems he hides behind the Big Bang. Since Science can't explain the antecedents of the Big Bang or how it was caused, well, God did it

Sadly, that is what theists have been reduced to - Lack of Knowledge = God

We see that a lot in posts and articles - Science doesn't know this, Science cannot explain this - therefore it must be God - the God of the Gaps

Magic and Miracles are explained the same way - since we can't predict random events, which is why they are random events in the first place, people are happy to give credit to God to the delight of religions who are happy to see this brainwashed talk

Of course misfortunes are never attributed to God - funny how that works. But then these people view God as a Sugar Daddy - one who is ready and waiting with a bucket of chicken after death and will keep them in comfort - Hotel Hawaii ready and waiting with their room booked. We don't want to make him angry by blaming him, do we?

A Slave mentality dominates - in the 21st century, no less
 
You're preaching to the choir. Try posting that on facebook or something.
 
People are irrational, and while we don't think with perfect logic, that we don't think with perfect logic is how we work, and that's ok.

There's a quote by Voltaire that I love and that I think is relevant here and many other places in this forum:

"Men will always be mad, and those who think they can cure them are the maddest of all"
 
People are irrational, and while we don't think with perfect logic, that we don't think with perfect logic is how we work, and that's ok.

There's a quote by Voltaire that I love and that I think is relevant here and many other places in this forum:

"Men will always be mad, and those who think they can cure them are the maddest of all"

Not sure i agree - do we then give up? This is the way things are? People do change - once Egypt dominated the world, then Greece. Where are they now? Once Islamic lands, situated between India, China on one side and Europe on the other was the center of all Science and knowledge. Where are they now?

My fear is climate change and the fear and hatred that religions can encourage - if we want a better society, we will have to fight for it
 
People are irrational, and while we don't think with perfect logic, that we don't think with perfect logic is how we work, and that's ok.

There's a quote by Voltaire that I love and that I think is relevant here and many other places in this forum:

"Men will always be mad, and those who think they can cure them are the maddest of all"

Not sure i agree - do we then give up? This is the way things are? People do change - once Egypt dominated the world, then Greece. Where are they now? Once Islamic lands, situated between India, China on one side and Europe on the other was the center of all Science and knowledge. Where are they now?

My fear is climate change and the fear and hatred that religions can encourage - if we want a better society, we will have to fight for it

Fighting for change is what people do. We're naturally productive so it's always been, and always will be happening. But there are a few caveats:

1) People's desire to change their environment versus their actual ability to actually change their environment are two separate variables. While I'd argue that an individual can initiate change, there's definitely a limit on that change. So the result is that social change largely moves slowly.

2) The over-arching direction of society is more powerful than human will. Get back to basics.. we're billions of energy burners, producing carbon, and living in a super-structure that individually we don't have a lot of control over. Most of the world as we know it today is a direct result of random geographic features of earth. Things will change.. that's what the universe does, but it's kind of just.. happening.

As for people being mad, point being is that the idea humans can be 'cured' of their ignorance seems incorrect to me. Finite, incomplete, and incorrect information about the world seems to be our natural state, even if we eventually agree that God doesn't exist.
 
God has always been a substitute for real knowledge.

If you don't know something, the only correct answer is "I don't know," but unfortunately most people are uncomfortable with admitting that to others or themselves, so they would rather accept an unverifiable answer than live without any answer at all. Every religion and every myth/fable tradition is replete with just-so stories (ad hoc fallacies) for just this reason.
 
"I don't know" is unacceptable to the human brain.. usually. It is better to be cautious and assign agency to that movement in the corner of your eye.
Often, a shadow will be mistaken for a stalking tiger, and there is no harm in that. you get startled, call out your alarm, and then recover almost immedialty. Never will a human brain mistake a stalking tiger for a harmless shadow. That would be too costly.
 
Anyone who has spent any time with apologetics arguments with Christians and Muslims, but they love argument from ignorance fallacies and use them constantly.

  • I don't understand where morality comes from, therefore God
  • I don't understand why things are true, therefore God
  • Science can't prove science, therefore God
  • I don't understand why 2+2=4, therefore God
  • Tide goes in, tide goes out, therefore God

This would be funnier if not for the fact that millions of those people own weapons and use arguments like the above to make decisions about the real world.
 
Underseer you could, and as I recall do make countless statements that end with "therefore there is no God". Sorry if I'm wrong but this goes both ways. What does anyone actually know? Nah, I mean seriously... what do we know?

It is a shame that stupid people love God and it is a shame that God is a compensatory monster for the weak, confused and suffering. I may have used compensate in the wrong way but you do get it.

It is also a shame that they have weapons but do you think they are out to get you? You're probably safer with stupid Christians holding all the ammo than just plain stupid people hoarding it. It is a shame and I agree that there are some frighteningly stupid Christians but please don't say Christians in general are stupid people. I don't know if that is what you meant but if you did, I respectfully disagree. Unlike the members of freethought, members of the atheist religion can be dumb as hell and you know this. I'd dare say the atheist to Christian I.Q ratio is even.
 
Underseer you could, and as I recall do make countless statements that end with "therefore there is no God". Sorry if I'm wrong but this goes both ways. What does anyone actually know? Nah, I mean seriously... what do we know?

It is a shame that stupid people love God and it is a shame that God is a compensatory monster for the weak, confused and suffering. I may have used compensate in the wrong way but you do get it.

It is also a shame that they have weapons but do you think they are out to get you? You're probably safer with stupid Christians holding all the ammo than just plain stupid people hoarding it. It is a shame and I agree that there are some frighteningly stupid Christians but please don't say Christians in general are stupid people. I don't know if that is what you meant but if you did, I respectfully disagree. Unlike the members of freethought, members of the atheist religion can be dumb as hell and you know this. I'd dare say the atheist to Christian I.Q ratio is even.

That would be a very bad assumption on your part. Christians are statistically far more likely to commit violent crime than atheists. In fact, in all the theist world, only a handful of religions from the far East are less likely than atheists to commit violent crime.

- - - Updated - - -

Why would you come to the conclusion that Christians are less likely to commit violent crime when it's obvious that you never looked at the actual data for this? Why would you accept a conclusion when you made no effort to find out if the conclusion is true?

There are lots of things I don't know about, which is why I refrain from forming conclusions about any of those topics.
 
I guessed because I am usually right, Underseer. Christians are not foaming at the mouth and this is not World War Z. WWC? I practice Christianity regularly and I see a lot. I have no actual Christian friends, though. My people are mostly low functioning atheists. They have nothing inside and I see them as dangerous. I know you're full of things and I don't know you well enough to make any further assumptions, so that is a generalization that has nothing to do with you or your people. I spoke on my own experience and I don't run to some imaginary facts and figures to back up a point. This is my world and my reality. You're welcome to prove me right, so fetch some statistics that are based in a lie that someone evil wants you to believe. Keep in mind I'm coming from a southern Baptist bible noose region and I do see a lot. I process what I see and I speak from impeccable intuition. It can sometimes be wrong, but rarely.

The only statistic I actually threw out was the I.Q of atheists, which is quite low, present company excluded. Christians are quite stupid too, myself included. We are dumb, just like 95% of the population of the country. There are so many stupid people running around doing jack shit for anyone but themselves, and the only consolation I can give for that chilling fact is that they are very easy to control. Fortunately the apparatus is in place and there is no amount of intellectualizing that will change it. It is not perfect but noting is perfect because stupid people need stupid stories and promises to prevent them from killing themselves and others. Does THAT sound like airy conjecture?

I don't mean to seem hostile and I in no way intend to insult you. I think we are speaking from different plateaus of consciousness, education and life experience. Neither place is right or wrong. They are just different.
 
I guessed because I am usually right, Underseer. Christians are not foaming at the mouth and this is not World War Z. WWC? I practice Christianity regularly and I see a lot. I have no actual Christian friends, though. My people are mostly low functioning atheists. They have nothing inside and I see them as dangerous. I know you're full of things and I don't know you well enough to make any further assumptions, so that is a generalization that has nothing to do with you or your people. I spoke on my own experience and I don't run to some imaginary facts and figures to back up a point. This is my world and my reality. You're welcome to prove me right, so fetch some statistics that are based in a lie that someone evil wants you to believe. Keep in mind I'm coming from a southern Baptist bible noose region and I do see a lot. I process what I see and I speak from impeccable intuition. It can sometimes be wrong, but rarely.

The only statistic I actually threw out was the I.Q of atheists, which is quite low, present company excluded. Christians are quite stupid too, myself included. We are dumb, just like 95% of the population of the country. There are so many stupid people running around doing jack shit for anyone but themselves, and the only consolation I can give for that chilling fact is that they are very easy to control. Fortunately the apparatus is in place and there is no amount of intellectualizing that will change it. It is not perfect but noting is perfect because stupid people need stupid stories and promises to prevent them from killing themselves and others. Does THAT sound like airy conjecture?

I don't mean to seem hostile and I in no way intend to insult you. I think we are speaking from different plateaus of consciousness, education and life experience. Neither place is right or wrong. They are just different.

Can you provide the source of your information (IQ levels by demographic, crime rates by demographic, etc..)?

If you are able to, you will have educated us.
If you are unable to, you will be reinforcing the notion that outspoken Christians are all just drooling idiots echoing the lies they have been indoctrinated into believing.

My mind is open... school me.
 
Religious people are dumber than non-religious people:
from http://www.skeptictank.org/hs/iq_relig.htm
Paraphrased and summarized from The Effect of Intelligence on Religious Faith, Burnham P. Beckwith, Free Inquiry, Spring 1986:

1. Thomas Howells, 1927
Study of 461 students showed religiously conversative students "are, in general, relatively inferior in intellectual ability."

2. Hilding Carlsojn, 1933
Study of 215 students showed that "there is a tendency for the more intelligent undergraduate to be sympathetic toward ... atheism."

3. Abraham Franzblau, 1934
Confirming Howells and Carlson, tested 354 Jewish children, 10-16. Negative correlation between religiosity and Terman intelligence test.

4. Thomas Symington, 1935
Tested 400 young people in colleges and church groups. He reported, "there is a constant positive relation in all the groups between liberal religious thinking and mental ability...There is also a constant positive relation between liberal scores and intelligence..."

5. Vernon Jones, 1938
Tested 381 stydents, concluding "a slight tendency for intelligence and liberal attitudes to go together."

6. A. R. Gilliland, 1940
At variance with all other studies, found "little or no relationship between intelligence and attitude toward god."

7. Donald Gragg, 1942
Reported an inverse correlation between 100 ACE freshman test scores and Thurstone "reality of god" scores.

8. Brown and Love, 1951
At U. of Denver, tested 613 male and female students. Mean test scores of non-believers = 119, believers = 100. Percentile NBs = 80, BBs = 50. Their findings "strongly corroborate those of Howells."

9. Michael Argyle, 1958
Concluded that "although intelligent children grasp religious concepts earlier, they are also the first to doubt the truth of religion, and intelligent students are much less likely to accept orthodox beliefs."

10. Jeffrey Hadden, 1963
Found no correlation between intelligence and grades. This was an anomalous finding, since GPA corresponds closely with intelligence. Other factors may have influenced the results at the U. of Wisconsin.

11. Young, Dustin and Holtzman, 1966
Average religiosity decreased as GPA rose.

12. James Trent, 1967
Polled 1400 college seniors. Found little difference, but high-ability students in his sample group were over-represented.

13. C. Plant and E. Minium, 1967
The more intelligent students were less religious, both before entering college and after 2 years of college.

14. Robert Wuthnow, 1978
Of 532 students, 37% of christians, 58% of apostates, and 53 percent of non-religious scored above average on SATs.

15. Hastings and Hoge, 1967, 1974
Polled 200 college students and found no significant correlations.

16. Norman Poythress, 1975
Mean SATs for strongly antireligious (1148), moderately anti-religious (1119), slightly antireligious (1108), and religious (1022).

17. Wiebe and Fleck, 1980
Studied 158 male and female Canadian university students. The reported "nonreligious S's tended to be strongly intelligent" and "more intelligent than religious S's.

On religion and crime, from http://hubpages.com/religion-philosophy/Religion-Atheism-and-Crime

On an international, national or sub-national level, greater religiosity does not inevitably lead to a more peaceful society. Increasing rates of atheism and agnosticism do not and have not correlated with increasing crime rates. In fact, in many instances, the opposite has been true: increased religious adherence is correlated with more violence and social instability.


So feel free to browse through these resources and comment while we wait for another1 to substantiate or retract their conflicting statements
 
Personally I think that it's a fool's errand to attempt to describe some correlation between intelligence and skepticism vs theism. Intelligence is (among other things) largely a measure of one's ability to process information. The biggest brain on the planet would be useless if it were not provided any information. Likewise it would reasonably be expected to reach invalid conclusions if it was given invalid information to process. Intelligent people who are fed religious input all their lives are not to be faulted for drawing conclusions that support the input they have received any more than Neo should be faulted in "The Matrix" for failing to realize that he was living in an artificially simulated world.

And I'm not even necessarily suggesting that all religions are de-facto invalid conclusions by saying that. But the fact that there are many differing religions often populated with highly intelligent people (among others) creates the logical necessity that many of the conclusions reached by these intelligent people are incorrect.

Humans are complex creatures. Each of us have a unique place on the scales of many qualities, not the least of which is the scale between trusting and skeptical. Each time our willingness to trust is exploited by someone who takes advantage of it we tend to adjust our place on that scale more towards the side of skepticism. And there will inevitably be some people we are more willing to trust and others we are less willing to trust. To complicate that even further there are some people we might trust implicitly to give us advice on car maintenance but we'd never trust that person to give us tax advice.

Many of us don't have time or inclination to question the assertions of people we've trusted all our lives about such matters as religion. Personally I found myself growing more skeptical as I grew older and I did begin to question things. It was that very questioning that led me to eventually realize how wrong I was about matters I believed very deeply. I try to avoid falling into the trap of assuming that just because I was wrong then and I think in very different patterns today I must be right now. But at least I fancy myself to be willing to listen to what others say in hopes of increasing my understanding now. Back then if someone said something I didn't already believe to be true I just assumed they didn't know what the hell they were talking about.
 
I agree with what you are saying, Atheos. The result of religious thinking leads to a lack of intelligence, not that a lack of intelligence leads to religious thinking.
And you are absolutely right that it comes down to who you trust for knowledge... or even understanding what it is to have knowledge ('just knowing', versus 'learning').
 
I agree with what you are saying, Atheos. The result of religious thinking leads to a lack of intelligence, not that a lack of intelligence leads to religious thinking.
I gotta rant here, but not specifically at you, Malintent, but the whole conversation.

I think it's both. I don't think you can separate the impingement of external ideological culture from the operation of individual minds within the culture. It's a two-way street, or more accurately, a mulitple way street.

Two important facts about human brains that I find useful to remember, plasticity and energy conservation, explain a lot about belief and behavior. There's much more, of course, but these neurological realities go a long way in shaping our lives and entire cultures. They're the drivers behind our "echo chamber" tendencies. We seek out confirmation because it's more comfortable than the stuff that challenges our beliefs, and we allow the resulting echo chamber to further strengthen our beliefs because that, too, is more comfortable than venturing out into the unfamiliar.

Religious ideology that eschews questioning and rewards wishful thinking and other cognitive pitfalls only strengthens the neural pathways that support such thinking and weakens other intellectual functions such as creativity.

An ideology or culture that encourages questioning strengthens different pathways and functions such as openness and curiosity unfettered by fear of punishment, and that alone impacts overall perception as well as specific aspects of intelligence, one being the ability to consider many possibilities in problem solving. (In some ideological groups, just learning about how one's brain works is itself a sin!)

On the other hand, most cognitive pitfalls that affect our views and choices are just lazy ways of thinking, which doesn't mean the person is lazy, but rather our lazy, energy-hog brains, which don't like spending resources to change those pathways of thinking that do not threaten survival and well being (including the sense of well being of the self image).

Within an ideological group where everyone pretty much agrees on certain beliefs and assumptions, no one cares if the assumptions are wrong if they're not challenged by discomfort in day to day life or by events that bring dissonance enough for the brain to rework its pathways for relief. And often that relief is sought by rewiring in the direction of digging in rather than exploration because it's less socially risky.

This is why, when religious tenets demonize aspects of our marvelous humanness, those individuals with those unauthorized traits or behaviors suffer, some for their whole lives and others up until their brains give up the glucose and they begin actively seeking a more humane worldview.

At the risk of conflating the issue, I'd add that compartmentalization plays a huge role in belief. We see this in scientists with supernatural beliefs as well as devout religionists who are also wicked sharp in cognitive ability in other areas.

Furthermore, some belief systems are called religions but are more accurately called philosophies, such as some forms of Buddhism wherein questioning and self reflection are valued over dogma.

I'm not a Buddhist, but I respect the hell out of the Dali Lama when he says “If scientific analysis were conclusively to demonstrate certain claims in Buddhism to be false, then we must accept the findings of science and abandon those claims.”

And you are absolutely right that it comes down to who you trust for knowledge...

That's social influence in a nutshell, yes. Very powerful, no matter who you are or how enlightened or smart or aware or independent you think you are.

or even understanding what it is to have knowledge ('just knowing', versus 'learning').
This line of philosophizing requires spending some glucose, and within religious ideologies, it's hit or miss whether someone uses such intellectual pondering to find their way to more realistic means of determining truth or if they just use it to devise more clever mental tap dancing to defend the indefensible.

So if your belief system, at its core, values questioning and willingness toange beliefs, your brain is built to go along with that and as a result, you have a massive intellectual advantage over those who spend their lives within an ideological collective that says change and doubt are sins punishable by eternal torture.

Religion is dumb and makes us dumber. Critical thinking means questioning and being open to possibilities. It's the anti-religion, not because it's just another, opposing belief system, but because critical thinking threatens the cognitive functions that give rise to religious belief at its root as well as drive further propogation.

End rant. If you read this far, I thank you. :)
 
I read to the end... no need to thank us.. we thank you for the input.
It seems you are saying that humans are justified for thinking the way they do, from a naturalistic point of view... and I do not disagree with the reasons you state. What I'm commenting on is that, while naturalistically justified, the religious approach is inferior to gaining knowledge, therefore those that rely on it are 'dumber' than those that do not.. .which i guess by 'dumber' I mean more animalistic? less human? more ape-like? I'll stick with dumber.
 
I read to the end... no need to thank us.. we thank you for the input.
It seems you are saying that humans are justified for thinking the way they do, from a naturalistic point of view... and I do not disagree with the reasons you state. What I'm commenting on is that, while naturalistically justified, the religious approach is inferior to gaining knowledge, therefore those that rely on it are 'dumber' than those that do not.. .which i guess by 'dumber' I mean more animalistic? less human? more ape-like? I'll stick with dumber.

Yeah, I agreed with that. I just don't agree that it's one or the other. It's both religious ideology making us dumber and our dumbness making us more susceptible to religious ideology. And it is mainly social influences and brain operation that drive it.

But I'm not really saying it's justified as much as I'm saying it's just the reality of how we operate. Numerous other factors are relevant as well. We're not stuck in a static intelligence by any means, but we are not often given to consciously changing how we think even though we have wicked brilliant potential to do so.

The most fascinating thing about this information age, for me, is noticing how those driving forces of brain function, social influence, self image, ideology, irrational thinking, emotion, curiosity, etc., help or hinder us in adapting to a tribe of billions, something we've never experienced in our long eons of evolution until just the latest nano-second of history.

In a very real sense, all of humanity is right now in a state of sudden shock. Technology and population increase have instantly (in the grand scheme of things) transformed the environment. And brains are nothing if not machines for modeling and interacting with the environment.

It's like being transported from a familiar place to a strange new one in an instant, and all the competing parts of your mind are responding differently. One is angry, one is in surprised stupor, one looks for someone in charge, one wants to run away and hide, one lashes out, etc. all in a fraction of a second. And that fraction of a second is not over yet.

That's how I see our species. :D
 
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