Leaving evidence of intelligent design to complex conscious species we create

[Kharakov]

We create a complex system of evolving interactions using a base set of parameters (call them the natural laws of the system).

We have consciousness (assume we master physical consciousness and can inject it into the system) as one of the basic elements of the system, primordial at first, which evolves into more complex forms along with the system.

We lack the ability to focus upon every single event in the system, although we can focus on specific elements at specific times, and influence the system in specific ways.


How do we indicate that the system itself was created to intelligent species that evolve to deal with the natural laws of the system?

Would we put signs within the system that are extremely unlikely to evolve from the system?

 

[bilby]

We create a complex system of evolving interactions using a base set of parameters (call them the natural laws of the system).

We have consciousness (assume we master physical consciousness and can inject it into the system) as one of the basic elements of the system, primordial at first, which evolves into more complex forms along with the system.

We lack the ability to focus upon every single event in the system, although we can focus on specific elements at specific times, and influence the system in specific ways.


How do we indicate that the system itself was created to intelligent species that evolve to deal with the natural laws of the system?

Would we put signs within the system that are extremely unlikely to evolve from the system?

If they can't tell, then why does it matter? To us or to them?

 

[Valjean]

We would put signs within the system that cannot have evolved by natural means -- like a watch.
Signs like a cat, which is eminently capable of evolving by natural means, wouldn't do at all.

 

[bilby]

We would put signs within the system that cannot have evolved by natural means -- like a watch.
Signs like a cat, which is eminently capable of evolving by natural means, wouldn't do at all.

I had a watch; but I dropped it on a heath, and was unable to distinguish it from the surrounding living things because they all had the same appearance of design, so that was the end of that.

 

[Kharakov]

If they can't tell, then why does it matter?

Why can't they tell?

There are certain things you can do within the system you design to show that the species you focus your attention on are not the only intelligent agents involved.

 

[Kharakov]

We would put signs within the system that cannot have evolved by natural means -- like a watch.
Signs like a cat, which is eminently capable of evolving by natural means, wouldn't do at all.

I had a watch; but I dropped it on a heath, and was unable to distinguish it from the surrounding living things because they all had the same appearance of design, so that was the end of that.

Of course you'd believe a watch came from the creator of this universe if someone told you that, right? Wouldn't it have to be something a bit more impressive than a watch?

 

[zorq]

Direct communication with the conscious inhabitants of the system might go a long way. We could just tell them, each of them, one at a time. If some of them desire evidence that we are the creators, we could provide examples of our designs and limitations and ability to influence the system including adjusting the basic laws in certain ways that no member of the system would be able to do. Pretty easy really.

 

[rousseau]

Doesn't intelligent design presume that there's something rational and intelligent about life? A little anthropocentric, don't you think?

 

[Kharakov]

We would put signs within the system that cannot have evolved by natural means -- like a watch.
Signs like a cat, which is eminently capable of evolving by natural means, wouldn't do at all.

Ok. Would you think a watch on the moon indicated that aliens planted it, the creator of the universe planted it, or someone was lying?

 

[bilby]

If they can't tell, then why does it matter?

Why can't they tell?

I don't know; it's your thought experiment.

But if they can tell, then these questions are moot:

"How do we indicate that the system itself was created to intelligent species that evolve to deal with the natural laws of the system?

Would we put signs within the system that are extremely unlikely to evolve from the system?"

So I presume, given that you bothered to ask them, that the idea is that they can't tell without us "indicating" with "signs".

There are certain things you can do within the system you design to show that the species you focus your attention on are not the only intelligent agents involved.

Yes, presumably there would be; but my question stands: If they can't tell, then why does it matter?

 

[Kharakov]

Direct communication with the conscious inhabitants of the system might go a long way. We could just tell them, each of them, one at a time.

What if they have an ingrained belief system centered around the "fact" that anyone who believes we exist or receives communications from us is insane?

If some of them desire evidence that we are the creators, we could provide examples of our designs and limitations and ability to influence the system including adjusting the basic laws in certain ways that no member of the system would be able to do. Pretty easy really.

Yeah. Assuming that different balances of natural laws that wouldn't fuck the whole thing up existed.

Temporary adjustment of Earth's gravitational field strength (assuming local focus could be done) may result in crazy ass weather, tidal catastrophes, earthquakes, volcanic eruptions, etc.

If you were to lower Sol's gravitational influence for a period of time, to let the Earth drift a measurable distance outwards, you would first need to create some sort of greenhouse effect on Earth, so that the increased distance from Sol would not cause a massive ice age. How would you create the greenhouse effect? Get environmentalists to talk in order to create enough hot air?

 

[Kharakov]

Doesn't intelligent design presume that there's something rational and intelligent about life? A little anthropocentric, don't you think?

Umm, indicating to beings in a universe that we create that there is an intelligence behind the design of the universe has little to do with anthropo.. wait a second. It would be completely anthropomorphic to indicate that humans designed a universe.

Ok.. so.. yes?

 

[Kharakov]

So I presume, given that you bothered to ask them, that the idea is that they can't tell without us "indicating" with "signs".

I thought your question meant that you thought they would not be able to tell even if there were deliberate signs.

There are certain things you can do within the system you design to show that the species you focus your attention on are not the only intelligent agents involved.

Yes, presumably there would be; but my question stands: If they can't tell, then why does it matter?

Why couldn't they tell that a universe was designed by an intelligent agent if we place deliberate hints in the universe that it was designed by an intelligent agent?

Are you assuming they would automatically assume that it was an agent that evolved within the universe that is posing as a spokesperson for the creator of the universe?

 

[bilby]

I thought your question meant that you thought they would not be able to tell even if there were deliberate signs.

There are certain things you can do within the system you design to show that the species you focus your attention on are not the only intelligent agents involved.

Yes, presumably there would be; but my question stands: If they can't tell, then why does it matter?

Why couldn't they tell that a universe was designed by an intelligent agent if we place deliberate hints in the universe that it was designed by an intelligent agent?

Are you assuming they would automatically assume that it was an agent that evolved within the universe that is posing as a spokesperson for the creator of the universe?

No, I am asking why it matters.

there are two possibilities in your thought experiment:

1) The universe is designed by an intelligence. This can be determined by those who inhabit it. The inhabitants know they are living in an intelligently designed universe.
2) The universe is designed by an intelligence. This cannot be determined by those who inhabit it. The inhabitants do not know whether or not they are living in an intelligently designed universe.

In case 1, there is no uncertainty, and nothing further to discuss.

In case 2, there is uncertainty on the part of the inhabitants as to whether or not the universe was designed. This leads to two questions: 'Why does this matter to the designer?' and 'Why does this matter to the inhabitants?'

If we live in a designed universe, and there is no way to tell that this is the case, how are our lives different in any way from those we would live in a naturally occurring universe? What is the difference between an undetectable designer and a non-existent designer?

 

[Valjean]

We would put signs within the system that cannot have evolved by natural means -- like a watch.
Signs like a cat, which is eminently capable of evolving by natural means, wouldn't do at all.

Ok. Would you think a watch on the moon indicated that aliens planted it, the creator of the universe planted it, or someone was lying?

I would think it was intelligently designed. Watches, unlike life, do not reproduce themselves. They're one-off, de novo creations.
How it got to the Moon would remain an open question.

 

[zorq]

What if they have an ingrained belief system centered around the "fact" that anyone who believes we exist or receives communications from us is insane?

If some of them desire evidence that we are the creators, we could provide examples of our designs and limitations and ability to influence the system including adjusting the basic laws in certain ways that no member of the system would be able to do. Pretty easy really.

Yeah. Assuming that different balances of natural laws that wouldn't fuck the whole thing up existed.

Temporary adjustment of Earth's gravitational field strength (assuming local focus could be done) may result in crazy ass weather, tidal catastrophes, earthquakes, volcanic eruptions, etc.

If you were to lower Sol's gravitational influence for a period of time, to let the Earth drift a measurable distance outwards, you would first need to create some sort of greenhouse effect on Earth, so that the increased distance from Sol would not cause a massive ice age. How would you create the greenhouse effect? Get environmentalists to talk in order to create enough hot air?

When you communicate with everyone individually, then they must all conclude that they are all insane or there is something else going on. If they emerged from an evolving system they would be hard wired for survival and won't give up hope every time they experience something unusual. My bet is that most of them would accept the communication at face value.

Further, There are all sorts of tweaks I can imagine happening in our universe, especially localized ones, that would be convincing evidence that someone is out there. In our universe an interesting tweak might be to shift the visible light spectrum up and down in a fun pattern. We might be looking at a green apple and suddenly it starts looking yellow, then it starts looking blue then it goes back to green. Red apples would fade and bounce between orange and grey/warm. Hopefully a limited demonstration like this in such a limited band of the electromagnetic spectrum wouldn't destabilize the sun leading to a supernova.

This thought experiment is really to vague for me to be able to pick an example of a universal law that could be tweaked without destroying the system because the hypothetical system is hypothetical.

 

[rousseau]

Doesn't intelligent design presume that there's something rational and intelligent about life? A little anthropocentric, don't you think?

Umm, indicating to beings in a universe that we create that there is an intelligence behind the design of the universe has little to do with anthropo.. wait a second. It would be completely anthropomorphic to indicate that humans designed a universe.

Ok.. so.. yes?

I guess it's not the point you were going for, but I just find the concept of 'intelligent design' non-sensical. That's probably obvious to you and assumed in this thread, but once you get past that there's nothing at all intelligent or rational about life, there's no need for an intelligent designer, and asking how one theoretical 'designer' would leave clues is like .... well I don't know what it's like, but it's probably just not a very useful discussion.

 

[Tom Sawyer]

It would be nice to have. That way, if we develop interstellar transport we could come to a new place, stick a probe up one of their butts to get a DNA sample and be able to say "Oh crap, this is another one of those species that was designed by Steve" and then just leave without making contact because Steve is an incompetent dipshit in regards to designing species. We don't need to deal with that kind of bullshit.

 

[Kharakov]

1) The universe is designed by an intelligence. This can be determined by those who inhabit it. The inhabitants know they are living in an intelligently designed universe.
2) The universe is designed by an intelligence. This cannot be determined by those who inhabit it. The inhabitants do not know whether or not they are living in an intelligently designed universe.

1) 1, 1, 1
2) 1, 0, 0
3) 1, 1, 0....
In any of the cases, the knowledge of the inhabitants of the systems would be of the same sort that we have, non-gravitational apples floating past any claims of absolute knowledge.

 

[Kharakov]

When you communicate with everyone individually, then they must all conclude that they are all insane or there is something else going on. If they emerged from an evolving system they would be hard wired for survival and won't give up hope every time they experience something unusual. My bet is that most of them would accept the communication at face value.

Yeah. No psychopath who enjoys power would evolve in the system to pose as you when you are not communicating with the beings directly.

In our universe an interesting tweak might be to shift the visible light spectrum up and down in a fun pattern. We might be looking at a green apple and suddenly it starts looking yellow, then it starts looking blue then it goes back to green.

Brain tweak would not result in some sort of catastrophe for all the systems in the universe.

If photons all over the universe switched energy levels... don't know what would happen. Seems reckless.