Legal definition of woman is based on biological sex, UK supreme court rules

[seanie]

Yes, seanie insisted it was an "obvious biological reality", bit when I asked how such a law could be enforced, they insisted that everyone's sex is written on the person's birth certificate, and that this is their legal sex.

I said birth certificates were a good starting point, because they’re a very reliable indication of someone’s sex, because correctly recording most baby’s sex is not remotely difficult.

And it was the Scottish Government’s losing position in the Supreme Court that sex in the Equality Act meant legal sex. For Women Scotland were arguing that sex meant biological sex, not legal sex.

 

[seanie]

Scotland is about to have the same problem, an explosion of social unrest and legally challenged arrests that will drain their treasury and accomplish nothing.

How is a tiny minority going to cause an explosion in social unrest?

 

[Toni]

Nobody said the .02% don’t matter. I’m just pointing out that ambiguity about a baby’s biological sex is very rare. It’s usually correctly observed at the 12 week scan.

And frankly, it could be twice that much and it would still be a small fraction of a percent.
Tom

And those people would still matter just as much as anyone else.

 

[TomC]

Nobody said the .02% don’t matter. I’m just pointing out that ambiguity about a baby’s biological sex is very rare. It’s usually correctly observed at the 12 week scan.

And frankly, it could be twice that much and it would still be a small fraction of a percent.
Tom

And those people would still matter just as much as anyone else.

I agree.
It's people like Politesse who don't think people matter if they don't agree with his gender ideology that are the problem. I'm nothing like a woman. But I care about them, and care about the concerns that they have. Even if I can't identify with them personally because I am not a woman.

It's the trans activist ideologues who are telling me what women need to accept because men want it!
Fuck those guys.
Tom

 

[seanie]

And those people would still matter just as much as anyone else

Nobody said they didn’t.

 

[Politesse]

Scotland is about to have the same problem, an explosion of social unrest and legally challenged arrests that will drain their treasury and accomplish nothing.

How is a tiny minority going to cause an explosion in social unrest?

Have you not been reading the news? Far right wing movements have thrown Europe and much of the English- and Spanish-speaking world into chaos, and have unseated or threatened to unseat multiple national governments over the past decade. That the specific minority groups they target pose no real threat is irrelevant, they jsut need them to be scary enough to motivate the dupes, and too few in number to raise a singificant political defense.

 

[Politesse]

I agree.
It's people like Politesse who don't think people matter if they don't agree with his gender ideology that are the problem.

What do you mean by "matter"? Agree with everything you claim that they want? That's not what it means to matter to someone. I don't have to swear fealty to someone to care about them.

 

[Politesse]

I said birth certificates were a good starting point, because they’re a very reliable indication of someone’s sex, because correctly recording most baby’s sex is not remotely difficult.

So you don't think birth certificates can be used to establish or prove a legal sex. What can? What do you think should happen next after someone you are arrested for using a gym locker room and are accused of being the wrong sex to use that facility?

 

[Politesse]

because correctly recording most baby’s sex is not remotely difficult.

And "most babies" don't grow up to be members of the minority group whose rights you're making the target of a unjustifiable smear campaign, and surrendering your own rights just so you can get the police to knock them around a little bit more.

But those who aren't a member of that group, or more importantly, the still small but much larger group of people whose apparent sex may not match their genetic sex, have nothing to do with this discussion. If we were talking about the problem of businesses that don't have wheelchair ramps, would you think it relevant or justifiable to claim that only 1.9% of the population uses a wheelchair, so their rights are unimportant? Like, yeah, not very many people use wheelchairs, but no one is claiming that the reason it's wrong to discriminate against wheelchair users is because they are the majority of citizens. If they were, we wouldn't be having the discussion. Your specific number is made up out of whole cloth as near as I can tell, but no one is denying that intersex conditions are relatively rare. Literally no one has ever claimed otherwise. Likewise, no one claims that most people use wheelchairs, worship satan, worship Allah, listen to death metal, or whatever other groups arte currently being made bait for the neo-Thatcherites to chew on. Yes, we all know that minorities are minorities. That's why they're called minorities. Those of us with a moral backbone simply do not accept the argument "discrimination is okay as long as it is against minorities". That is a terrible, terrible philosophy, and everyone who espouses it should be forced by their grandmothers to walk around in public with a little sign around their neck that says "I am an antisocial jerk who disappointed my family, please do not do business with me."

 

[Politesse]

You know, the thought of Scotland of all places surrendering to neofascist ideology is incredibly disturbing to me. I remember once when I was a kid, I was in Edinburgh with the family and we came upon a familiar scene: a busker wailing on a bagpipe in front of St Giles' Cathedral, while passersby almost paid attention and occasionally dropped a coin in his instrument case. A police officer of some kind wandered by this scene of blatant illegality, and do you know what happened? He didn't arrest the busker. Didn't kick him, didn't lecture him, didn't even steal his money as "witness to a crime". No, he just gently nosed the instrument case shut with his foot and wandered on. Message clear without being said, "no more of that now", and nothing more needed to be said. The piper kept blowing, and didn't reopen the case, at least not while I was there. Although Edinburgh is a small metropolis and I grew up in the sticks, I knew even at fifteen that such an interaction would have gone so much more poorly in my hometown, would have involved yelling and cameras and possibly a temporary detention without a charge if the "perp" refused to leave, and I thought about that for years.

I like that Scotland better than the one conservatives want, the American-style police state they so plainly salivate for. I like a society that functions, and where people generally trust one another to be decent adult human beings, better than one which eats itself and passes the savings on to whoever can claim them. Why you would want what we have when you had something so much better baffles me utterly.

 

[seanie]

Have you not been reading the news? Far right wing movements have thrown Europe and much of the English- and Spanish-speaking world into chaos, and have unseated or threatened to unseat multiple national governments over the past decade. That the specific minority groups they target pose no real threat is irrelevant, they jsut need them to be scary enough to motivate the dupes, and too few in number to raise a singificant political defense.

There’s no far right movement to speak of in Scotland. Their numbers are miniscule.

 

[Politesse]

Have you not been reading the news? Far right wing movements have thrown Europe and much of the English- and Spanish-speaking world into chaos, and have unseated or threatened to unseat multiple national governments over the past decade. That the specific minority groups they target pose no real threat is irrelevant, they jsut need them to be scary enough to motivate the dupes, and too few in number to raise a singificant political defense.

There’s no far right movement to speak of in Scotland. Their numbers are miniscule.

Then why the fuck would you invite them in? Don't wreck what you have, it's much harder to get back once you've lost it than it is to keep what you've got.

 

[seanie]

So you don't think birth certificates can be used to establish or prove a legal sex. What can? What do you think should happen next after someone you are arrested for using a gym locker room and are accused of being the wrong sex to use that facility?

I never said they were. I said they were a very reliable starting point. Not conclusive, but a good guide. Birth certificates can be amended with the acquisition of a GRC after all, so they’re not foolproof.

And if someone’s been arrested, as soon as they’re identified, their sex will be a matter of record.

Look up the database.

 

[Politesse]

And it was the Scottish Government’s losing position in the Supreme Court that sex in the Equality Act meant legal sex. For Women Scotland were arguing that sex meant biological sex, not legal sex.

Are you somehow missing the part where FWS won the case?

 

[Politesse]

So you don't think birth certificates can be used to establish or prove a legal sex. What can? What do you think should happen next after someone you are arrested for using a gym locker room and are accused of being the wrong sex to use that facility?

I never said they were. I said they were a very reliable starting point. Not conclusive, but a good guide. Birth certificates can be amended with the acquisition of a GRC after all, so they’re not foolproof.

And if someone’s been arrested, as soon as they’re identified, their sex will be a matter of record.

Look up the database.

What database? What kind of investigations are done to ensure that it is accurate?

"As soon as they are identified" is exactly what I'm asking about. What's this process of identification you're submitting yourself and others to?

 

[seanie]

Then why the fuck would you invite them in? Don't wreck what you have, it's much harder to get back once you've lost it than it is to keep what you've got.

This is delusional.

The gender critical movement in Scotland, and the UK is, for the most part but not entirely, a grass roots movement driven by left/liberal women.

 

[seanie]

You think the government and it’s various agencies hold no data about the public?

 

[seanie]

Are you somehow missing the part where FWS won the case?

Not at all.

I agree wholeheartedly that sex in the Equality Act should mean biological sex not legal sex.

I’m pointing out that, for the most part, birth certificates are pretty accurate about a person’s sex. After all, the majority of trans women don’t have GRCs, so their birth certificates will accurately record them as being male.

Even with a GRC, a birth certificate indicates if it’s been amended.

 

[seanie]

People are most commonly identified by their name, date of birth, and maybe address.

That’s enough for the police usually.

 

[seanie]

I mean be serious, the government holds vast amounts of data about people, including their sex. It matters for healthcare, taxation, benefits etc.