Legal definition of woman is based on biological sex, UK supreme court rules

[Arctish]

Young boy who likes Barbie, pink, dresses and sparkles.

Obviously a girl.

We should sterilise and castrate them.

So progressive.

Who the fuck is talking about castrating boys???

How the fuck did you get that out of anyone's post, and why the fuck are you linking it to being progressive?

That's an utterly regressive, authoritarian, slave- and chattel-owning mentality that should have finally died in Western culture when the Nazis were defeated but still persists in certain flavors of Christianity and other religions, none of which are represented or endorsed here.

 

[ZiprHead]

Do expand on what you mean by “living and acting as a man” and “living and acting as a women”.

I’d be enthralled to know just how exactly men and women are supposed to live and act.

What makes you think you are a male human?

 

[TomC]

Do expand on what you mean by “living and acting as a man” and “living and acting as a women”.

I’d be enthralled to know just how exactly men and women are supposed to live and act.

What makes you think you are a male human?

Are your questions purely rhetorical or are you trying to have a serious discussion about sex, gender, and social customs?

Sincerely,
Tom

 

[laughing dog]

Your reality-free opinions lend an entertaining and whimsical air to the proceedings.

I don't see how the Talmud is relevant, but the opinions of the parent of a trans child are not. But clearly you think that is "reality-free".

I know your response is reality-free because it is yet dumbass straw man.

And once again, you dance around the question asked. You retreat to vague insults, and the reasons for that are obvious.
Tom

There was no question asked. And your straw men are relentlessly tiresome.. I did use “dumbass” because it was clear you’d finally get a message.

 

[Toni]

Your reality-free opinions lend an entertaining and whimsical air to the proceedings.

I don't see how the Talmud is relevant, but the opinions of the parent of a trans child are not. But clearly you think that is "reality-free".

I expect the HCIC to come along shortly and agree with you.
Tom

Think back 30 or 40 years ago.

Would you be writing the same sentences if the parent of a child who was gay was espousing conversion therapy or shunning their child or sending him to military camp to toughen him up?

I don’t know what your personal story was and I’m not asking you to share it unless you decide you want to. I’m asking you to think back and see how you would have felt as a young teen or young man and were reading similar comments by someone who was the parent of a gay child and was certain that it was outside influences or mental health issues that made him think he was gay.

 

[TSwizzle]

Young boy who likes Barbie, pink, dresses and sparkles.

Obviously a girl.

We should sterilise and castrate them.

So progressive.

Who the fuck is talking about castrating boys???

How the fuck did you get that out of anyone's post, and why the fuck are you linking it to being progressive?

That's an utterly regressive, authoritarian, slave- and chattel-owning mentality that should have finally died in Western culture when the Nazis were defeated but still persists in certain flavors of Christianity and other religions, none of which are represented or endorsed here.

What do think “gender affirming” treatments consist of?

 

[Arctish]

Young boy who likes Barbie, pink, dresses and sparkles.

Obviously a girl.

We should sterilise and castrate them.

So progressive.

Who the fuck is talking about castrating boys???

How the fuck did you get that out of anyone's post, and why the fuck are you linking it to being progressive?

That's an utterly regressive, authoritarian, slave- and chattel-owning mentality that should have finally died in Western culture when the Nazis were defeated but still persists in certain flavors of Christianity and other religions, none of which are represented or endorsed here.

What do think “gender affirming” treatments consist of?

An entire range of care designed to help people struggling with gender and identity issues to acknowledge and validate their gender identity. It includes counseling, social services, and guidance as they make adjustments to their social networks. It might include hormone therapy. In rare cases it might include surgery, but only on people who consent to it after psychologists have confirmed they understand the procedure, know the potential drawbacks and possibility of complications, and that the consent is valid - not on boys who like the color pink or whatever horseshit reason seanie thinks the Progressive Boogeyman thinks is valid.

What do you think gender affirming care consists of? The immediate removal of a boy's sex organs if he likes My Little Pony, or a girl's if she likes climbing trees?

 

[TSwizzle]

I haven’t laughed this hard since my granny got her tits caught in the wringer.

Sure, dress it up all you like but “gender affirming” treatment consists of nasty, irreversible stuff perpetrated against sexually confused adolescents. I guess that’s why they stopped doing it in much of Europe.

 

[Arctish]

I haven’t laughed this hard since my granny got her tits caught in the wringer.

Wow. That says a lot about you, and none of it nice.

Sure, dress it up all you like but “gender affirming” treatment consists of nasty, irreversible stuff perpetrated against sexually confused adolescents. I guess that’s why they stopped doing it in much of Europe.

What sources of information did you use to reach that conclusion?

If it was Meta and X, then I can understand the point-of-view that starts at outrageous and then gets even wilder. If was something else I would really like to read those reports. Please share them.

 

[Bomb#20]

Semenya has a vagina. For a lot of people, that is the defining trait of a woman - not her ovaries, not her uterus, not her breasts. It doesn't matter if she's had a radical hysterectomy and itty-bitty man titties. If she has a vagina, men will treat her as a woman.

Setting aside the question of whether what Semenya has is a vagina, you seem to be saying men will treat a person with a penis, testicles and a vagina as a woman. If so, that appears on its face to be an argument that men tend to be misogynistic jerks instead of an argument that having a vagina is the correct criterion for womanhood -- it sounds like those men are relying on the "women are failed men" definition of womanhood. What makes how "men will treat" someone the truth-maker here? Do women typically consider a person with a penis, testicles and a vagina to match the criteria for womanhood?
...

You are conflating sex with gender. They are not the same thing.

"Is there a vagina?" is a question about sex.

I was following your lead! You're the one who proposed asking a hundred men about a vagina to settle a gender question. So if I'm conflating sex with gender, so are you.

The question about what women typically consider a person with a penis, testicles and a vagina to be has a list of sex attributes but the embedded question is about gender.

Hey, I'm just correcting the imbalances in your focus group approach. Men don't have any more expertise on "What is a woman?" than women have, so let's have a co-ed focus group.

My neighbor bringing his wife flowers after she gave birth to each of their first 6 children, all girls, and a fur coat after she gave birth to a boy was more about sexism in our society than anything else.

Maybe. Funny story about that -- the last time my mom was in labor my dad told us kids he'd take us out to celebrate when the baby was born -- to our favorite expensive steakhouse if it was a girl and to McDonald's if it was yet another boy. So maybe your neighbor was into diversity, not sexism.

What Semenya made clear was about gender identity, not about gender. Gender ideology equivocates between those constantly. Gender is a social construct. That means your gender is up to the collective, not up to you. People do not get their choice about what's the correct pronoun to use to refer to them.

Can you exhibit any language in the world where noun classes are based on personal choice and speakers are expected to learn and take into account the preferences of the referents of pronouns? For a language to work that way would defeat the entire point of having noun classes and pronouns in the first place -- languages evolve such features because they relieve the burden on memory.

I never studied languages, and I really don't know how noun classes are set in any of them. But I have read a bit about Native American cultures and how some of them recognized more than two different gender presentations, how some of them had specific words for "men who live as women", "women who live as men", etc. And I have read several articles about We'wha that attested to the fact that people who knew him/her used different pronouns for him/her, the choice of which reflected whether he/she was living as a man or a woman at that time.

Sometimes We'wha was a he and sometimes We'wha was a she.

Zuni has no words for "he" and "she" -- it has no third person pronouns at all -- so the people who called We'wha those things were presumably speaking English. And they were presumably speaking it as a second language since they were evidently trying to map Zuni cultural concepts into English. "Sometimes a he and sometimes a she" is evidently what they thought was the closest approximation they could find in Anglo culture. That doesn't tell us anything about whether gender works that way in the Anglosphere; it just tells us different cultures do gender differently and some categories aren't easily translatable.

Apparently Caster Semenya is a she all of the time but not everyone acknowledges or respects that. Some people want her to be a he regardless of her thoughts about herself.

Why is it that you call Semenya's take on gagwe* gender "is", but call other people's take on it "want"? You could equally well describe the situation as "Apparently Caster Semenya wants to be a she all of the time but not everyone judges such things by wishful thinking. Some people acknowledge Semenya is a he regardless of what anyone wants."

(* Sepedi for "his or her".)

 

[seanie]

Do expand on what you mean by “living and acting as a man” and “living and acting as a women”.

I’d be enthralled to know just how exactly men and women are supposed to live and act.

That’s also a standing question.

Feel free to enlighten us.

Men and women live and act in societies. It almost never happens that someone is completely isolated from a society, and when it does happen it's terrible for their mental health. Societies have expectations of behavior, and ones that have been around for a while have developed social roles.

If a society deems hunting a male activity, then a woman who hunts is acting as a male according to the social norms of that society.

If their religion teaches that men should shave their facial hair, put on dresses and make themselves pretty to please a goddess and secure her blessings, then men who do that are acting like men in that society even though they are dressing like women.

If their society accepts gender fluidity then the gender identity they are expressing at any given time isn't necessarily the one they will always have. They might hunt as a man and take care of babies as a woman and it's all good because their society respects both sides of their gender identity.

It's not that hard to figure out the basics of gender roles in societies and how/why those roles are not strictly linked to biological sex if you really want to give it some thought.

So you are saying that societal gender stereotypes determine how people should be regarded as to whether they're female or male.

So why doesn't a bit of lippy, a wig, stockings and a dress, make a biological male female?

They're conforming to a societal expectation of how a female presents, in a way that a male isn't expected to.

Why doesn't this meet your criteria for considering males female?

 

[seanie]

Or do you concede that males "acting" as females are still male?

In which case we come right back to the circumstances in which we separate spaces and services by sex. Which is commonplace.

Why should a male "acting" as a female have a right to enter a female only space?

 

[seanie]

I haven’t laughed this hard since my granny got her tits caught in the wringer.

Wow. That says a lot about you, and none of it nice.

Sure, dress it up all you like but “gender affirming” treatment consists of nasty, irreversible stuff perpetrated against sexually confused adolescents. I guess that’s why they stopped doing it in much of Europe.

What sources of information did you use to reach that conclusion?

If it was Meta and X, then I can understand the point-of-view that starts at outrageous and then gets even wilder. If was something else I would really like to read those reports. Please share them.

Well the UK, Denmark, Sweden, Finland and France have all adopted a more cautious approach to the Gender Affirming model.

The UK's Cass report has had some influence.

 

[Emily Lake]

The genetics have been explaining Ned multiple times elsewhere in this thread.

No they haven't. Seriously, what the hell genetics do you have in mind that somehow makes a karyotypically normal, phenotypically normal, and reproductively normal male somehow a female? Honest to fucking god, on what planet is Eddie Izzard "genetically" a woman?

Genetics is not confined to chromosomes.

Yes it is. Chromosomes are the carriers of genes. I suspect what you mean to say is that genetics is not confined to *sex* chromosomes - that would be true. Most of our chromosomes are not sex chromosomes, but the pair that *are* sex chromosomes are pretty damned important, as well as being absolutely necessary for a fetus to develop at all.

The sry gene is crucial in determining maleness. If it has migrated to another part of a chromosome, this function does not occur properly.

This is some wonky language, and while it likely sounds good at a high level, it's quite misleading.

Yes, the SRY gene is responsible for sex determination, along with the fetus' ability to receive and process testosterone. Specifically, SRY prompts the differentiation of gonads at about 6 weeks of development. Once the gonads have differentiated, SRY is also responsible for signalling the release of large amounts of testosterone by the testes, which triggers the fetus to follow the wolffian process, and simultaneously results in the dissolution of the preliminary mullerian ducts.

There is one specific DSD that is related to the translocation of the SRY gene - de la Chapelle syndrome. In this case, the fetus will develop gonads comprised of testicular tissue, and will develop a male phenotype. They're considered males, even though they have an XX karyotype... because sex is not defined by karyotype.

On the other end of DSDs is Complete Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome, CAIS. In this situation, the SRY gene is present on the Y chromosome as is normal for humans, but the fetus is lacking the ability to process androgens. It's important to note that the ability to process androgens is NOT sex-linked; normally both males and females have the ability to do so, and testosterone occurs naturally in both sexes. It's produced in small amounts by the adrenal glands in both sexes, as well as very small amounts in normal, healthy ovaries. But because people with CAIS can't process androgens at all... they never enter the wolffian process, and their development follows the mullerian path. But because the SRY is present, their gonads differentiate to testicular tissue. This makes CAIS one of the more controversial DSDs. Some people consider CAIS individuals to be male, because they have sterile testicular tissue. Others consider CAIS to be female, because they develop a female reproductive system with no male components. Medically speaking, CAIS individuals have a cervix and a uterus and fallopian tubes so they're going to need a gynecologist. They do NOT have a prostate. I fall into the camp of considering CAIS to be female despite having an XY karyotype.

All of which is interesting... but none of which supports your assertion that transgender identity is genetic. It certainly doesn't support your assertion that a karyotypically male, phenotypically male, and developmentally male person can be a woman because of genetics.

 

[Emily Lake]

I am unaware of any poll or study results. I’m aware of anecdotes which run the gamut from hardcore antitrans bigots to sore losers to females who they believe are men to people concerned with fairness.

Wow. Talk about narrative framing.

Apparently, if female humans object to letting males compete on female teams... it's only because those females are bigots or sore losers.

Couldn't possibly be about fairness and the recognition that males and females have different bodies. Nah, it's all just some made-up bigotry and we've got a hundred years of sports stats that someone invented to support that grand lie.

 

[seanie]

Young boy who likes Barbie, pink, dresses and sparkles.

Obviously a girl.

We should sterilise and castrate them.

So progressive.

Who the fuck is talking about castrating boys???

How the fuck did you get that out of anyone's post, and why the fuck are you linking it to being progressive?

That's an utterly regressive, authoritarian, slave- and chattel-owning mentality that should have finally died in Western culture when the Nazis were defeated but still persists in certain flavors of Christianity and other religions, none of which are represented or endorsed here.

What do think “gender affirming” treatments consist of?

An entire range of care designed to help people struggling with gender and identity issues to acknowledge and validate their gender identity. It includes counseling, social services, and guidance as they make adjustments to their social networks. It might include hormone therapy. In rare cases it might include surgery, but only on people who consent to it after psychologists have confirmed they understand the procedure, know the potential drawbacks and possibility of complications, and that the consent is valid - not on boys who like the color pink or whatever horseshit reason seanie thinks the Progressive Boogeyman thinks is valid.

What do you think gender affirming care consists of? The immediate removal of a boy's sex organs if he likes My Little Pony, or a girl's if she likes climbing trees?

Trans away the gay.

 

[Emily Lake]

There’s polling that suggests the overwhelming majority of female athletes, when asked, want sex testing reintroduced.

Given the repercussions for speaking out publicly, it’s no surprise that current athletes tend to stay quiet.

Do you have link to the alleged evidence?

Americans have grown more supportive of restrictions for trans people in recent years

Two-thirds of U.S. adults favor laws and policies that require trans athletes to compete on teams that match their sex assigned at birth.

www.pewresearch.org

NYT poll finds majority of Democrats oppose transgender athletes in women’s sports

The issue drew widespread opposition in 2024.

nypost.com

 

[Emily Lake]

This is actually a great question and shouldn't be asked sarcastically. Especially the "why" part. I don't think the answer is available yet and won't be for a while

I think that the main problems here are two things. Sex and gender are two different things. That's one, and it doesn't fit the trans activists ideology.

The one we're talking about here (this post, not the whole thread) is semantics. For all of human history, until very recently, sex and gender were so tightly entwined there was little point to making a distinction between male and man or female and woman. A person's birth sex determined a ton of stuff about their life, including their gender. That's not the case anymore, at least not here in places with resources and secular values. We've got therapy and advanced treatment options. It's become important to make a distinction between sex and gender, at least under a few circumstances. Our language, however, hasn't kept up. It's gotten a bit obsolete. The difference is utterly unimportant in all but a tiny few circumstances, but sometimes it is important. "Male' and "woman" , sometimes, are opposites.
Tom

This is true for western society but in fact, as has been noted earlier in this thread, many societies recognized more than two genders:

Cultures That Recognize More than Two Genders | Britannica

Curious about genders that defy the binary? Learn more about cultures around the world that recognize nonbinary identities.

www.britannica.com

In the Talmud, seven genders are recognized:

The Seven Genders in the Talmud | My Jewish Learning

Thought nonbinary gender was a modern concept? Think again. The ancient Jewish understanding of gender was far more nuanced than ...

www.myjewishlearning.com

I know that gender and sex are not equivalent. I’m just providing links to a couple of descriptions of how other societies view gender or did in the past.

I always find this approach interesting. Yes, you're right - some cultures do recognize more than two social roles that are associated with sex. What often gets overlooked when appealing to these alternate gender roles is that this occurs in cultures that have pretty strict enforcement of those gender roles. Fa'afafine and hijra and similar such categories occur in part because those cultures have male work and female work, and there are many things that female members of those cultures are forbidden from doing at all.

 

[Emily Lake]

This is true for western society but in fact, as has been noted earlier in this thread

Which is where we live and where our language evolved.

What other cultures did isn't important to me. And frankly, I doubt that you (with your modern sensibilities) would find most primitive old cultures particularly attractive. You, as a mere female, would generally be restricted to cooking and cleaning and popping out babies.
As God intended!
Tom

Yes, yes... but if Toni lived in that culture, then there would be some males who are downgraded from the social status of "man" and end up being situated somewhere above women. So you know... apparently that's better than having a culture that has embraced equality of the sexes in social function? I don't know. I don't know what the point of bringing hijra and such into the discussion is at all.

 

[seanie]

Sports was always a massive overreach.

However sympathetic, or accepting, or "live and let live", most people are, biological males in female sports was never gonna fly.

But the Trans lobby had to have it all.

With no debate.