Let's get educated about the American welfare programs

[Loren Pechtel]

Not fantasy. Just a bit of to real for some



You are right. he was barely functional

A native of Iowa, Muilenburg earned a bachelor's degree in aerospace engineering and an honorary doctor of science degree from Iowa State University, as well as a master's degree in aeronautics and astronautics from the University of Washington.

pump up exercise: I started at MDC one year after he started at Boeing, but I was a PhD with a post Doc when I started there and I had more than 8 years experience in aerospace by that time.

I guess he got ahead by not making stupid mistakes like the ones I just managed. He caught up quick.

You don't see the difference between $80 million and billionaire??

 

[Kusa]

I don’t think you understand this. My tax deductions do not “put more money” in my pocket. How is that you say? Well, after paying taxes all year, I still always get a tax bill at tax time. All the deductions do is slightly lower the amount of money that I am forced to pay.



If they have a difficult position that pays low wages then they should consider doing something more lucrative. That’s what I did.

In any case, society benefits from the EIC. It allows businesses to pay lower wages because the government is going to help out at the end of the tax season by rewarding hard work with a cash benefit.

Cash taken from me.

Some might consider the EIC welfare for employers. What business is it of yours, how that money is spent!

It is money that I earned and was taken from me.

Most are using the money to pay down debt., or perhaps to purchase a much needed item for their home. They don't pay federal taxes because they don't make enough money to pay them!

I don’t care if they don’t pay federal taxes. I just don’t want to have to pay them personally out of my pocket.

And, why the fuck do you care if a small percentage buy a little weed with this benefit? That sounds so petty to me. Dog forbid that low income families should ever be able to afford the things that the rest of us take for granted. In any event, these people are spending the money, which benefits the economy.

It doesn’t benefit my personal economy. In fact, it has a negative effect.

I bet there are things that you do with your money, including the extra money that you benefit from due to you being eligible to deduct certain expenses from your tax return. But, what you do with your money is none of my business or concern, anymore then how people spend their EIC benefit is any of your business.

It is my business what happens to the money I earn, regardless of who spends it.

It has never ceased to amaze me that some people have such disdain for those who are stuck in the lower socio economic classes.

I have no contempt for people that are in different classes.

I certainly do understand it. In fact the expression, "it put more money if my pocket" was a direct quote from my affluent brother in law. He was speaking about the Trump tax break that allowed him to have more money. You are the one who doesn't seem to get it. Your tax liability is lower due to the special deductions that you can take. Without those deductions that are the privilege of the middle and upper classes, you'd be paying more taxes and you would have less money. Why is that so hard to understand?

Thank you for your reply.

The truth is that it takes less money out of my pocket vs. putting money in my pocket.

Those who make more money should pay more taxes. It's as simple at that. Those who barely make enough to live on, benefit from the EIC, a reward to workers for taking on the low paying jobs. That is why I consider it welfare for employers. The employers benefit from the EIC just as much if not more than the workers do. Why? Because they are able to get workers to do that often difficult, but low paying jobs that are vitally important. I'm not sure that you understand that.

The workers who I knew personally, who benefitted from the EIC were aides in an assisted living facility. Don't you think these women, who have to bathe older people with dementia, clean their rooms, cook for them, help them into their wheelchairs, and sometimes take physical abuse from those who become agitated, should be paid more than 8 dollars an hour? If the employer isn't willing to pay them more, the EIC at least helps them at the end of the tax cycle. That benefits the employer as much or more than it benefits the workers. Why aren't you angry at the employers instead of the workers?

If the government didn’t offer EIC, the employers would be forced to pay more in wages. Why? Because the workers would eventually decide to do something different. Contrary to what you might believe, people do have choices. I’ve worked fast food and worked as a laborer in very physically demanding jobs. I didn’t like it one bit so I made choices to open up different opportunities for me. It took years but I’m finally where I want to be.

I never liked my taxes going to help support our huge and wasteful military budget, but we don't get to decide where our taxes go. Our so called representative leaders get to make those decisions. You don't like that the government helps poor workers. I don't like that the government spends a huge amount of money on military equipment, which is often unnecessary. It's pretty much a hand out to big businesses that make military equipment, regardless of whether it's needed or not. But, I digress.

If you don' t like the EIC, then you should be an advocate for a much higher minimum wage so that fewer people will need the EIC. It's really pretty simple. You made what I consider a poorly informed comment when you said these workers should do something more lucrative. What if they don't have the same opportunities that you did? And, who will do these difficult low paying jobs if everyone gets the type of education or training to do a higher paying job? Sheesh. I'm pretty sure I once got a very small EIC benefit back in the late 70s when I was working as a public health nurse. So, even people with degrees sometimes are under paid and receive EIC benefits.

I get the impression that you hate paying taxes. Well, I'm sorry to inform you that taxes are a necessity to keep the government running, to support the military, to maintain our national parks, and federal buildings and workers, to keep our infrastructure intact, ( yeah, I know we need to spend a lot more money on that ) to. help the poorest among us survive etc. Nobody is crazy about paying taxes, but they are a necessity, despite all the wasteful spending. Does it bother you that our current president has spent absurd amounts of our tax dollars on personal travel etc.? Or does it only bother you when poor people get a little money from the government?

I certainly don’t mind paying taxes. I don’t like paying the amount of taxes that are forced on me. I also don’t like redistribution of wealth. Why should my money be taken from me and given to another person? This is fundamentally wrong. The only thing the government gives to people are things that it takes from other people.

Imagine a government agent coming in your house to confiscate a TV from you and give it to your neighbor because your neighbor didn’t have one. You obviously think this would be fair.

You say that you don't dislike any class of people, but the fact that you resent that a tiny percentage of your tax dollars go to help support the poorest workers say otherwise. I appreciate your input to this thread, but I see no point in continuing to try to convince you that your position is wrong. I've told you what I think and if that doesn't convince you, nothing will. Just stop assuming that I'm the one who doesn't understand. . Basically you've stated that you don't like any of your tax dollars going to help poorly paid workers with children. Got it.

I think you should assess all the excess wealth and assets you have and give it to the government for redistribution.

 

[Elixir]

Imagine a government agent coming in your house to confiscate one of your 400 TVs and give it to your neighbor because your neighbor didn’t have one. You obviously think this would be unfair. And maybe you're correct in some purely technical world. But IMHO it's only right in the real world.

 

[Jason Harvestdancer]

Imagine a government agent coming in your house to confiscate one of your 400 TVs and give it to your neighbor because your neighbor didn’t have one. You obviously think this would be unfair. And maybe you're correct in some purely technical world. But IMHO it's only right in the real world.

Imagining a person with 400 televisions? I think I can see the basis of many of your positions.

 

[DBT]

The role of government is to provide services, infrastructure, social security, etc, for the common good of society. For that to happen, taxes have to be collected. Many of the super rich and their supporters, it appears, want to reduce or avoid their responsibility to society.

 

[Half-Life]

That is very similar to what I said about your neighbor saying to you, "I can't afford my cable and internet bill this month. Since you have a lot of money, can't you just pay my bill? It would be very selfish of you if you chose not to pay my bill. Why do you always have to think of yourself? I need cable and internet, too! Why is yours more important than mine?!?!?"

When one understands that this whole conversation would just be a neighbor whining for a handout trying to manipulate you with guilt, you will realize how socialists sound to conservatives.

 

[ZiprHead]

Imagine a government agent coming in your house to confiscate one of your 400 TVs and give it to your neighbor because your neighbor didn’t have one. You obviously think this would be unfair. And maybe you're correct in some purely technical world. But IMHO it's only right in the real world.

Imagining a person with 400 televisions? I think I can see the basis of many of your positions.

Your lack of imagination is your problem, not Elixir's.



One of the Uber founders just bought this for $72.5 million while many of his employees are actually living in their cars and the company has yet to turn a "profit".

The Beverly Hills mansion purchase by Camp was completed mere weeks after Uber’s IPO further enriched its wealthy investors and founders. Camp, a Canadian entrepreneur with an estimated net worth of $4.2bn, already owns a portfolio of luxury properties in Los Angeles, San Francisco and Manhattan.

Camp’s purchase has drawn the ire of activists and drivers who have long been protesting about Uber’s labor practices and advocating for better working conditions

“This is a perfect example of the 1% stealing from the rest of us,” Nicole Moore, a ride-share driver in Los Angeles, said of Camp’s $72.5m purchase. “Drivers are living in their cars. We’re fighting for fair wages. At least share that wealth with the people who have actually built your company.”

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2019/jul/02/los-angeles-mansion-sales-homelessness-increase

 

[Jason Harvestdancer]

That is a mansion, not 400 televisions.

You can tell the difference, right?

 

[Elixir]

Your lack of imagination is your problem, not Elixir's.

Metaphors seem really difficult for Jason. He can't possibly see televisions as proxies for anything else. Add it to the list that already includes satire, facetiousness etc..
If had been addressing him I would have converted it all to currency so he might be able to wrap his head around it. But the comment was in response to Kusa, and I'm not going to dumb everything down just in case Jason might read it...

 

[DBT]

That is a mansion, not 400 televisions.

You can tell the difference, right?

Analogy and metaphor no longer exist?

 

[RVonse]

I'm saying the billionaires create the most jobs for people. Everyone always complains that the top 1% owns 50% of the wealth, but they never stop and look at how many jobs the top 1% creates for everyone.

Without places like Home Depot, Walmart, Amazon, Facebook, Microsoft, Apple, most people wouldn't have any jobs.

Shouldn't the response be "thank you" instead of hatred and spitting on them?

Actually, most job creation is in growing business, not big businesses.

And you're not addressing the reality at all--the tax cuts didn't produce jobs. Much of the money went into stock buybacks--good for anyone who owns the stock, useless for the worker.

Actually, what was sold to us was that the corporate tax cuts were going to make the US more competitive with China and Germany rates. The goal of more high value jobs brought back to a de-industrialized rust belt.

Perhaps they were full of crap but we will see.

So far, Trump policy appear to be working extremely well though. Best job numbers in our lifetime. https://youtu.be/zKuEBt4DQzg

 

[ZiprHead]

I'm saying the billionaires create the most jobs for people. Everyone always complains that the top 1% owns 50% of the wealth, but they never stop and look at how many jobs the top 1% creates for everyone.

Without places like Home Depot, Walmart, Amazon, Facebook, Microsoft, Apple, most people wouldn't have any jobs.

Shouldn't the response be "thank you" instead of hatred and spitting on them?

Actually, most job creation is in growing business, not big businesses.

And you're not addressing the reality at all--the tax cuts didn't produce jobs. Much of the money went into stock buybacks--good for anyone who owns the stock, useless for the worker.

Actually, what was sold to us was that the corporate tax cuts were going to make the US more competitive with China and Germany rates. The goal of more high value jobs brought back to a de-industrialized rust belt.

Perhaps they were full of crap but we will see.

So far, Trump policy appear to be working extremely well though. Best job numbers in our lifetime. https://youtu.be/zKuEBt4DQzg

[URL="https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2019/05/att-promised-7000-new-jobs-to-get-tax-break-it-cut-23000-jobs-instead/]"AT&T promised 7,000 new jobs to get tax break—it cut 23,000 jobs instead
AT&T also cut capital spending despite promising $1 billion capital boost.[/URL]

 

[Jason Harvestdancer]

That is a mansion, not 400 televisions.

You can tell the difference, right?

Analogy and metaphor no longer exist?

I learned never to use them on this board.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Imagine a government agent coming in your house to confiscate one of your 400 TVs and give it to your neighbor because your neighbor didn’t have one. You obviously think this would be unfair. And maybe you're correct in some purely technical world. But IMHO it's only right in the real world.

Except that's not what we are talking about. Unlike leftist fantasy the ultra-wealthy put their money to work, they don't just have it sitting around. In most cases the vast majority of that wealth is corporate stock--the value is purely what people think the company will do in the future, it doesn't represent money taken from anyone.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Your lack of imagination is your problem, not Elixir's.

View attachment 25510

One of the Uber founders just bought this for $72.5 million while many of his employees are actually living in their cars and the company has yet to turn a "profit".

The Beverly Hills mansion purchase by Camp was completed mere weeks after Uber’s IPO further enriched its wealthy investors and founders. Camp, a Canadian entrepreneur with an estimated net worth of $4.2bn, already owns a portfolio of luxury properties in Los Angeles, San Francisco and Manhattan.

Camp’s purchase has drawn the ire of activists and drivers who have long been protesting about Uber’s labor practices and advocating for better working conditions

“This is a perfect example of the 1% stealing from the rest of us,” Nicole Moore, a ride-share driver in Los Angeles, said of Camp’s $72.5m purchase. “Drivers are living in their cars. We’re fighting for fair wages. At least share that wealth with the people who have actually built your company.”

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2019/jul/02/los-angeles-mansion-sales-homelessness-increase

As you say, the company hasn't turned a profit. He didn't take that $72.5m from Uber drivers.

 

[TV and credit cards]

If they have a difficult position that pays low wages then they should consider doing something more lucrative. That’s what I did.

Well hell's bells Margaret. All this time I've been working at the tire shop, I've should have been a gotdamn aerospace engineer.

What if a low wage difficult position is all they are capable of? What if they are firing on all eight cylinders and labor intensive low wage positions that do not pay a living wage is all they can ever hope to achieve? Should an employer pay them a living wage? Do we as a society owe them healthcare? Other substance because not even a single person can make ends meet at $8-$10 an hour?

You don't see the difference between $80 million and billionaire??

No. Please explain it to me in terms of $$$. Explain to me how a person sitting on $80 million is so vastly different than one sitting on a billion if all they are doing is sitting on it or endeavor to make it larger. The difference between 80,000,000 and 1,000,000,000 is obvious. the difference between $80,000,000 and $1,000,000,000 gets a little opaque for me.

Imagine a government agent coming in your house to confiscate a TV from you and give it to your neighbor because your neighbor didn’t have one. You obviously think this would be fair.

The government would not have to. I would give my neighbor that TV. That you would call this my choice and you should be allowed to keep your two TVs if you so choose when your neighbor has none brings us to an impasse, doesn't it? I think if you cannot find it within yourself to give your neighbor a TV, that TV should be taken from you. See, in my scenario, both you and your neighbor get to watch TV. In yours, you get to watch TV, have an extra that is of no use to you and your neighbor goes with out.
We're not asking you for a kidney here. Just that you share the excesses of your life that your intelligence and talents have afforded you with those who are, shall we say, born of a lesser god.

View attachment 25510

One of the Uber founders just bought this for $72.5 million while many of his employees are actually living in their cars and the company has yet to turn a "profit".

Hum? Should I spend $72.5 million on this waste or help thousands of children who need XXX? There is something psychologically wrong with an individual who would buy such a thing.

[URL="https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2019/05/att-promised-7000-new-jobs-to-get-tax-break-it-cut-23000-jobs-instead/]"AT&T promised 7,000 new jobs to get tax break—it cut 23,000 jobs instead
AT&T also cut capital spending despite promising $1 billion capital boost.[/URL]

I was babysitting an AT&T contractor splicing some fiber in one of our buildings a couple months back. A black Trump supporter, he was. Not that guy you always see standing behind Trump at his rallies, another black Trump supporter. He was worried about loosing his job. He was eighteen months from being eligible for retirement. Those are the people that AT&T are cutting, said this Trump supporter.

 

[ZiprHead]

Your lack of imagination is your problem, not Elixir's.

View attachment 25510

One of the Uber founders just bought this for $72.5 million while many of his employees are actually living in their cars and the company has yet to turn a "profit".

The Beverly Hills mansion purchase by Camp was completed mere weeks after Uber’s IPO further enriched its wealthy investors and founders. Camp, a Canadian entrepreneur with an estimated net worth of $4.2bn, already owns a portfolio of luxury properties in Los Angeles, San Francisco and Manhattan.

Camp’s purchase has drawn the ire of activists and drivers who have long been protesting about Uber’s labor practices and advocating for better working conditions

“This is a perfect example of the 1% stealing from the rest of us,” Nicole Moore, a ride-share driver in Los Angeles, said of Camp’s $72.5m purchase. “Drivers are living in their cars. We’re fighting for fair wages. At least share that wealth with the people who have actually built your company.”

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2019/jul/02/los-angeles-mansion-sales-homelessness-increase

As you say, the company hasn't turned a profit. He didn't take that $72.5m from Uber drivers.

Or maybe the reason the company hasn't turned a profit is because the company paid the man the $72.5 million. Salaries come before profit.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Well hell's bells Margaret. All this time I've been working at the tire shop, I've should have been a gotdamn aerospace engineer.

What if a low wage difficult position is all they are capable of? What if they are firing on all eight cylinders and labor intensive low wage positions that do not pay a living wage is all they can ever hope to achieve? Should an employer pay them a living wage? Do we as a society owe them healthcare? Other substance because not even a single person can make ends meet at $8-$10 an hour?

Eventually that will be an issue. However, for now if those who can better themselves do the supply of workers at the bottom will diminish and thus wages will rise.

No. Please explain it to me in terms of $$$. Explain to me how a person sitting on $80 million is so vastly different than one sitting on a billion if all they are doing is sitting on it or endeavor to make it larger. The difference between 80,000,000 and 1,000,000,000 is obvious. the difference between $80,000,000 and $1,000,000,000 gets a little opaque for me.

The claim was he was a billionaire. I showed the claim to be wildly false. Or am I not supposed to rebut a good rant with facts?

[URL="https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2019/05/att-promised-7000-new-jobs-to-get-tax-break-it-cut-23000-jobs-instead/]"AT&T promised 7,000 new jobs to get tax break—it cut 23,000 jobs instead
AT&T also cut capital spending despite promising $1 billion capital boost.[/URL]

I was babysitting an AT&T contractor splicing some fiber in one of our buildings a couple months back. A black Trump supporter, he was. Not that guy you always see standing behind Trump at his rallies, another black Trump supporter. He was worried about loosing his job. He was eighteen months from being eligible for retirement. Those are the people that AT&T are cutting, said this Trump supporter.

Corporate tax breaks for jobs fail badly and should not be done.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

As you say, the company hasn't turned a profit. He didn't take that $72.5m from Uber drivers.

Or maybe the reason the company hasn't turned a profit is because the company paid the man the $72.5 million. Salaries come before profit.

You realize Uber wasn't his first startup? He went into the situation loaded. I'm not finding anything showing his salary but I do find that in it's life Uber has provided stock-based compensation worth over $4 billion. That's effectively money from nowhere as startups issue shares, they don't buy them on the market like established ones do for stock options.

 

[Gun Nut]

That is very similar to what I said about your neighbor saying to you, "I can't afford my cable and internet bill this month. Since you have a lot of money, can't you just pay my bill? It would be very selfish of you if you chose not to pay my bill. Why do you always have to think of yourself? I need cable and internet, too! Why is yours more important than mine?!?!?"

When one understands that this whole conversation would just be a neighbor whining for a handout trying to manipulate you with guilt, you will realize how socialists sound to conservatives.

What if your church had a meeting that resolved for the members to put up a collection to pay the neighbor's bill? Let's say you were in that meeting, voted against it, but still wish to be a member of the church. Would you pay your share of the agreed upon contributions, which based on the size of your community, was about $0.80 each?

Is that just as unfair as being expected to personally float that person's bill all on your own? Why or why not?

Now, how does either scenario map to reality? i.e. community getting together to help the neighbor = taxes, versus you being personally responsible to pay your neighbor bill = <what, now?>