Let's Hear It For the Girls

[krypton iodine sulfur]

Um, no? What would gay men be lying about?

Being gay.

A transgender woman is a man who identifies as a woman.

Not really. A transgender woman experiences a persistent discrepancy between physical sex characteristics and gender identity (likely--though not conclusively--as a result of neurological development). In limited cases, people who are intersex also identify as transgender for the same reason.

 

[Metaphor]

Um, no? What would gay men be lying about?

Being gay.

Sometimes gay men lie and pretend they're straight, I suppose.

Not really. A transgender woman experiences a persistent discrepancy between physical sex characteristics and gender identity (likely--though not conclusively--as a result of neurological development). In limited cases, people who are intersex also identify as transgender for the same reason.

Fixed it for you below:

A transgender woman is a man who experiences a persistent discrepancy between physical sex characteristics and gender identity (likely--though not conclusively--as a result of neurological development).

 

[krypton iodine sulfur]

A transgender woman is a man who experiences a persistent discrepancy between physical sex characteristics and gender identity (likely--though not conclusively--as a result of neurological development).

No, you didn't fix it. You altered it in a way which demonstrates either lack of comprehension, or that you are simply being disingenuous.

 

[Metaphor]

A transgender woman is a man who experiences a persistent discrepancy between physical sex characteristics and gender identity (likely--though not conclusively--as a result of neurological development).

No, you didn't fix it. You altered it in a way which demonstrates either lack of comprehension, or that you are simply being disingenuous.

Trans women are men. If you are born with the external genitals of a male, and the cells in your body are XY, and at puberty you would take on the secondary sexual characteristics of a male unless you are specifically put on female hormones, you are a man.

I understand that there are trans-identified males who have gender dysphoria and who want to be women. Their dysphoria is a result of their biological sex (male) and the sex they wish they were (female).

Now, here's the thing. I am willing, out of courtesy, to use gender pronouns that are obviously, well, a courtesy.

But I'm not willing to deny biological reality. I'm not willing to entertain the complete and unadulterated madness of segregating sports by sex but also pretending that biological males who want to be women do not have the sporting advantages that biological males have that caused society to segregate sports by sex in the first place.

I'll tell you something for nothing. If you want to lose the goodwill of normies on trans acceptance, keep up the delusional arguments that trans women don't have an advantage over women in sports. For additional alienation points, also argue that men who went through a male puberty and then transitioned in their twenties or later lose all the biological advantages of a male puberty as soon as they decide to identify as women. Also, emphasise the ultimate goal: for any person to identify into the sex-segregated sport of their choosing, without a medical transition or even a diagnosis of gender dysphoria. Self-identification only! Everything else is transphobic gatekeeping!

 

[krypton iodine sulfur]

I understand that there are trans-identified males who have gender dysphoria and who want to be women.

Trans-identified males would be transgender men (generally), not transgender women, as seems to be implied by your statements.

If you are born with the external genitals of a male, and the cells in your body are XY, and at puberty you would take on the secondary sexual characteristics of a male unless you are specifically put on female hormones, you are a man.

You are arguing against nothing. No one is denying physical sex characteristics and the role they have in biology or sexual reproduction.

Their dysphoria is a result of their biological sex (male) and the sex they wish they were (female).

The dysphoria is a result of a disconnect between physical sex and the mental/ neurological sense of gender identity. That is what it is. This is not a debate. Playing semantics or shifting definitions scores you no point.s

I'll tell you something for nothing. If you want to lose the goodwill of normies on trans acceptance, keep up the delusional arguments...

I'll tell you something for nothing. The reason you will be increasingly left behind as the world moves forward is not due to some activist agenda or 'woke' something or other. It's because you take no time to understand what is actually being argued.

 

[Jason Harvestdancer]

Perhaps to be fair, all transgenders should compete in the more demanding league. There are already no actual barriers to women competing in mens sports, but there are necessary barriers to men competing in womens sports.

Either that or a trans league if the population grows enough for that.

 

[Rhea]

I understand that there are trans-identified males who have gender dysphoria and who want to be women. Their dysphoria is a result of their biological sex (male) and the sex they wish they were (female).

This is at odds with scientifiC evidence and An insult that surprises me to come from someone who is homosexual.
It is not what they “wish” they were, it is what they are on a biological level. The parts of the body that concern genitalia, sexuality and gender identity are not i the same place, nor do they develop at the same time. They exist physically in different places in the body and brain. So if you want to discuss whether a person has a hormonal advantage in sports, you can do that without denying the biological reality of gender or sexual dysphoria.

But I'm not willing to deny biological reality.

But you just did. So... something to learn there.

I'm not willing to entertain the complete and unadulterated madness of segregating sports by sex but also pretending that biological males who want to be women do not have the sporting advantages that biological males have that caused society to segregate sports by sex in the first place.

Just did it again.

I'll tell you something for nothing. If you want to lose the goodwill of normies on trans acceptance, keep up the delusional arguments that trans women don't have an advantage over women in sports. For additional alienation points, also argue that men who went through a male puberty and then transitioned in their twenties or later lose all the biological advantages of a male puberty as soon as they decide to identify as women. Also, emphasise the ultimate goal: for any person to identify into the sex-segregated sport of their choosing, without a medical transition or even a diagnosis of gender dysphoria. Self-identification only! Everything else is transphobic gatekeeping!

If you want to have this discussion, then being right on biology helps.

I agree with the premise that people who have not transitioned, or who transitioned after puberty may have hormonally driven advantages that are not fair in a hormonally differentiated sport. That can be talked about without insulting or denying the existence of gender dysphoria.

 

[Metaphor]

This is at odds with scientifiC evidence and An insult that surprises me to come from someone who is homosexual.

Why?

A homosexual is a person who is sexually attracted to the same sex. Of course, trans activists have tried to distort and destroy this meaning, by claiming people are attracted to genders (they are not). What makes me a homosexual is biological reality: I am a man and I am attracted to men. If I were a woman with the same attractions, I'd be heterosexual.

It is not what they “wish” they were, it is what they are on a biological level. The parts of the body that concern genitalia, sexuality and gender identity are not i the same place, nor do they develop at the same time. They exist physically in different places in the body and brain. So if you want to discuss whether a person has a hormonal advantage in sports, you can do that without denying the biological reality of gender or sexual dysphoria.

What does it mean to be transgender on a 'biological' level? Do you mean that dysphoric thoughts, like all thoughts, must originate in a brain?

I agree with the premise that people who have not transitioned, or who transitioned after puberty may have hormonally driven advantages that are not fair in a hormonally differentiated sport. That can be talked about without insulting or denying the existence of gender dysphoria.

Not just hormonal advantages, physiological advantages that do not and cannot be erased by any amount of transitional surgery or hormones.

 

[Metaphor]

The dysphoria is a result of a disconnect between physical sex and the mental/ neurological sense of gender identity. That is what it is. This is not a debate.

Having a mental sense that you are a woman does not make you a woman. This is not a debate.

A doctor can tell you whether you are a man or a woman without you ever opening your mouth.

I'll tell you something for nothing. The reason you will be increasingly left behind as the world moves forward is not due to some activist agenda or 'woke' something or other. It's because you take no time to understand what is actually being argued.

What's being argued is that a mental sense of being a woman makes you a woman, and that the words 'woman' and 'man' belong to gender identity and not sex, and that we can jettison the idea of sex-segregation and replace it with gender-segregation.

I reject all three.

 

[krypton iodine sulfur]

Not just hormonal advantages, physiological advantages that do not and cannot be erased by any amount of transitional surgery or hormones.

It's going to depend on the sport and the individual. When a person started hrt, what sort of training they did prior to that, what their individual physiology is like, what sport they are competing in will all change the extent to which they may or may not have an advantage. And it is not unique to transgender athletes. You aren't talking biology, neither are you talking about fairness in sports or levelling the playing field by regulating advantage. You are talking in simplified, propagandistic narratives to support the conclusion you started with.

 

[krypton iodine sulfur]

What's being argued is that a mental sense of being a woman makes you a woman

What is being argued is that gender identity is meaningful, and to that extent, the term 'woman' is meaningfully applied to transgender women. It does not override biology, neither does it seek to ignore it. But the idea that we use the terms 'man' and 'woman' to identify people by their biology in the overwhelming majority of cases is a bald-faced lie. Ordinarily, no one runs medical tests on us to recognize a person as male or female. We go by what is apparent, or what is declared, and increasingly people go by the extent to which they are able to understand gender identity and expression as meaningful concepts.

Obviously there is a connection between the terms 'male' and 'female' and biology and reproduction. But in most usages 'male' and 'female' are not being mapped to karyotype. In many cases, we will never even come face to face or see the people to whom we apply these terms. There is no extraordinary logic applied to using the term 'woman' with regard to transgender women. It belies no biological reality. It recognizes the significance and validity of identity and the simple reality that the term 'woman' is not a medicalized term.

 

[Toni]

Why?

A homosexual is a person who is sexually attracted to the same sex. Of course, trans activists have tried to distort and destroy this meaning, by claiming people are attracted to genders (they are not). What makes me a homosexual is biological reality: I am a man and I am attracted to men. If I were a woman with the same attractions, I'd be heterosexual.



What does it mean to be transgender on a 'biological' level? Do you mean that dysphoric thoughts, like all thoughts, must originate in a brain?

I agree with the premise that people who have not transitioned, or who transitioned after puberty may have hormonally driven advantages that are not fair in a hormonally differentiated sport. That can be talked about without insulting or denying the existence of gender dysphoria.

Not just hormonal advantages, physiological advantages that do not and cannot be erased by any amount of transitional surgery or hormones.

I think you are not correct in your assumptions about the biology involved in being transgender/transsexual (transsexual being under the more general umbrella of transgender)

Here's a wiki link that may help:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causes_of_transsexuality

Of course you are aware that not every male who identifies as male is XY nor is every female who identifies as female XX. There are other configurations of X and Y chromosomes, the frequency of which is somewhat uncertain as few people ever have their karotype analyzed.

 

[repoman]

If you persecute enough scientific wrongthinkers then KIS and his ilk win. This is a war of attrition. You should surrender now, Metaphor.

Note that I am fully on board with human caused climate change being a thing, because that is from cold hard facts and not from psychologically confused people trying to change the world to fit themselves.

 

[krypton iodine sulfur]

If you persecute enough scientific wrongthinkers then KIS and [her] ilk win. This is a war of attrition. You should surrender now, Metaphor.

It is not a war of attrition. With further research, medical professionals and associations are increasingly recognizing the significance of gender identity, what treatments are suitable to address gender dysphoria, and what factors lead to good or poor health. Legislators are increasingly acting in response to that.

...and not from psychologically confused people...

Seems like an odd way to characterize Psychiatric and Medical professionals and associations.

 

[Axulus]

In fighting sports like MMA and boxing, we already separate the competition by a non-gender trait: weight.

The gender neutral solution would be to separate athletic competition by some metric or group of metrics that give a strong advantage in that sport and create different classes of competitors, similar to how heavier competitors are separated from their lighter competitors in fighting sports. Then, if a transgender woman has a high measure on the relevant features, they will be put in the competition class as someone else with similar features, which would presumably include mostly biological males.

 

[repoman]

That would insult their sense of womanhood.

 

[krypton iodine sulfur]

The gender neutral solution would be to separate athletic competition by some metric or group of metrics that give a strong advantage in that sport and create different classes of competitors, similar to how heavier competitors are separated from their lighter competitors in fighting sports.

Pretty much. If the concern is advantage, then what needs to be addressed is advantage.

 

[Bomb#20]

No, they propose girls who are transgender compete with girls.

Transgender girls are boys.

You mean like gay men are liars who chose sin?

Um, no? What would gay men be lying about?

Being gay.

Sometimes gay men lie and pretend they're straight, I suppose.

I think you're misunderstanding what KrIS is saying here. KrIS does not appear to be talking about gay men actually lying, but instead appears to be alluding to a meme endemic to a subculture of conservative Christians that holds that there's really no such thing as gay people. According to the meme, being gay isn't an orientation, or an experience of feeling sexual attraction to people of your sex but not to people of the opposite sex, or anything else like this that just happened to you so you could plausibly blame God for it. Rather, it's those people's own choice to prefer the forbidden fruit because it's forbidden fruit. The theory is that so-called "gays" are choosing to go against their natural sexual inclination to couple with the opposite sex, in order to act out their rebellious urges, and are just lying (perhaps to themselves) about their motivation. The point of the theory is to argue that it's entirely their own fault, so Christians are justified in punishing them.

KrIS appears to be expressing the opinion that your view, that M2Fs not really female but male, is analogous to those conservative Christians' view, that men who lie with mankind as with womankind are not really gay but rebellious.

 

[Metaphor]

No, they propose girls who are transgender compete with girls.

Transgender girls are boys.

You mean like gay men are liars who chose sin?

Um, no? What would gay men be lying about?

Being gay.

Sometimes gay men lie and pretend they're straight, I suppose.

I think you're misunderstanding what KrIS is saying here. KrIS does not appear to be talking about gay men actually lying, but instead appears to be alluding to a meme endemic to a subculture of conservative Christians that holds that there's really no such thing as gay people. According to the meme, being gay isn't an orientation, or an experience of feeling sexual attraction to people of your sex but not to people of the opposite sex, or anything else like this that just happened to you so you could plausibly blame God for it. Rather, it's those people's own choice to prefer the forbidden fruit because it's forbidden fruit. The theory is that so-called "gays" are choosing to go against their natural sexual inclination to couple with the opposite sex, in order to act out their rebellious urges, and are just lying (perhaps to themselves) about their motivation. The point of the theory is to argue that it's entirely their own fault, so Christians are justified in punishing them.

KrIS appears to be expressing the opinion that your view, that M2Fs not really female but male, is analogous to those conservative Christians' view, that men who lie with mankind as with womankind are not really gay but rebellious.

I don't think M2Fs are rebelling against anything. I think many of them have gender dysphoria. They're just not women. They're men.

 

[Metaphor]

What's being argued is that a mental sense of being a woman makes you a woman

What is being argued is that gender identity is meaningful, and to that extent, the term 'woman' is meaningfully applied to transgender women. It does not override biology, neither does it seek to ignore it. But the idea that we use the terms 'man' and 'woman' to identify people by their biology in the overwhelming majority of cases is a bald-faced lie.

Of course it's not a lie. We've been using words to refer to sex for thousands of years. Except for people disguising their sex, the terms 'man' and 'woman' have had a very good correspondence to people's biological sex.

We haven't referred to human 'gender' before the 20th century.