Let's Invade Russia!

[barbos]

This all started with Russia finally getting some kind of break economy wise and then spending some much needed money on defense update. West interpreted it as planning to invade. The fact that in the 90s military (and really everything) were in utter crap does not bother West, they can't bear a thought that Russia would eventually get into some kind of relative normalcy. Organized crime in the 90s was filled with former KGB an millitary guys, that's how bad it was. West wants Russia being in perpetual crap.

 

[DrZoidberg]

This time it's all of NATO plus Ukraine and Georgia against Putin's Russia. Byelorussia remains neutral. So does China.

A win is getting to Moscow and deposing Putin.

No nukes.

Could NATO succeed where Bonaparte and Hitler failed? There's less space to conquer without Ukraine and Byelorussia and the Baltics. But of course Hitler captured all of them fairly quickly and then got bogged down. But Hitler's problem was manpower vs space to conquer. He had to control Ukraine. He pissed off the locals as well and they kept quite a few divisions tied up. Plus he was distracted by his Antisemetic policies which tied up huge numbers of troops. But still I just watched a special on Operation Bagration. What a horror show for the Germans. Even if it could be done it would be rough.

SLD

I think conquering Russia will be fairly easy. Not, Iraq easy. But not China hard either. Russia is a fairly split country. There's a lot of Russians who hate Putin. There's a lot of communists, who don't love the west, but they think that Putin is same-same. A lot of support from Eastern Europe, who will be happy about not being under the thumb of Russia anymore.

Sure, nukes is a problem. But will they use them? We might lose Washington DC, New York and London. But I don't think a worst case scenario will get apocalyptic.

But I think it will solve nothing. It'll be another Iraq or Afghanistan. While Russia is split today, there still are plenty of nationalists. They will make any occupying force bleed. And once that force is withdrawn we'll likely go back to what we have today. So all-in-all, a complete waste of time and effort.

For all of Putins evils, he could be a lot worse. While I want to see Putin go, I'm still wary about fucking with something that works.

 

[DrZoidberg]

This all started with Russia finally getting some kind of break economy wise and then spending some much needed money on defense update. West interpreted it as planning to invade. The fact that in the 90s military (and really everything) were in utter crap does not bother West, they can't bear a thought that Russia would eventually get into some kind of relative normalcy. Organized crime in the 90s was filled with former KGB an millitary guys, that's how bad it was. West wants Russia being in perpetual crap.

Ehm... Ukraine? From my end the West's interpretation was correct. Last time I checked the Crimea still belonged to Russia. He's a loose cannon.

 

[barbos]

This all started with Russia finally getting some kind of break economy wise and then spending some much needed money on defense update. West interpreted it as planning to invade. The fact that in the 90s military (and really everything) were in utter crap does not bother West, they can't bear a thought that Russia would eventually get into some kind of relative normalcy. Organized crime in the 90s was filled with former KGB an millitary guys, that's how bad it was. West wants Russia being in perpetual crap.

Ehm... Ukraine? From my end the West's interpretation was correct. Last time I checked the Crimea still belonged to Russia. He's a loose cannon.

What about Ukraine? Yes, Crimea belongs to Russia and should belong to Russia. And US ambassador to Russia agrees. Ukraine shit started long before Crimea getting back where it belongs. Russia expressed their utter displeasure about US meddling in Ukraine and Georgia in spring 2008. US ignored and kept pushing and then instigated Georgia invasion in South Ossetia. I am sorry, but you have been warned that there is a price to pay for NATO expansion long time ago.

 

[DrZoidberg]

Ehm... Ukraine? From my end the West's interpretation was correct. Last time I checked the Crimea still belonged to Russia. He's a loose cannon.

What about Ukraine? Yes, Crimea belongs to Russia and should belong to Russia. And US ambassador to Russia agrees. Ukraine shit started long before Crimea getting back where it belongs. Russia expressed their utter displeasure about US meddling in Ukraine and Georgia in spring 2008. US ignored and kept pushing and then instigated Georgia invasion in South Ossetia. I am sorry, but you have been warned that there is a price to pay for NATO expansion long time ago.

Last time I checked the US president is a Russian stooge. So, sorry if I don't give a flying fuck about what the US ambassador to Russia thinks about it. I'm sure Russia expressed US meddling in Ukraine. But the very fact that Russia had a problem with it just proves the Western powers right. Putin was treating the Ukraine as Russia's backyard. US/EU meddling is about giving Ukraine some freedom to settle their own affairs. It's no surprise that Ukraine went to total shit after independence = all Russias fault. The problems they have now, are also all Russia's fault. The entire civil war wasn't. It was all a Russian invasion.

Ehe... countries in NATO get more freedom. It's not a problem for those countries. It's pure benefit. While on the other hand, the countries in the Russian "sphere of influence" are made Russia's bitch. Countries around Russia need protection from Russia. USA hasn't got a perfect track record. But you can't compare USA and Russia when it comes to evil.

Crimea belongs to the Ukraine. Why? Because ethnicity and nationality are just artificial constructs anyway. The more we can keep borders fixed, the better it is for everyone. I think we should do what we did against Iraq and Kuwait. Invade the Crimea, give it back to the Ukraine, and then pull our troops back. Make Russia understand that trying to grab countries is more trouble than it's worth.

I think anybody trying to grab land from anyone, for any reason, should be stopped. Everybody has a claim to everything anyway. History is messy. Sweden used to rule half of Europe. How about giving it back to Sweden? No? It's the same logic.

 

[barbos]

What about Ukraine? Yes, Crimea belongs to Russia and should belong to Russia. And US ambassador to Russia agrees. Ukraine shit started long before Crimea getting back where it belongs. Russia expressed their utter displeasure about US meddling in Ukraine and Georgia in spring 2008. US ignored and kept pushing and then instigated Georgia invasion in South Ossetia. I am sorry, but you have been warned that there is a price to pay for NATO expansion long time ago.

Last time I checked the US president is a Russian stooge. So, sorry if I don't give a flying fuck about what the US ambassador to Russia thinks about it. I'm sure Russia expressed US meddling in Ukraine.

First of all, current US president is not a Russian stooge, he just a stooge. Second of all I am not talking about current ambassador, I am talking about Matlock.

But the very fact that Russia had a problem with it just proves the Western powers right.

Yeah, the whole foreign policy is based on harassing Russia.

Putin was treating the Ukraine as Russia's backyard.

No, he was not, he was paying them for being nice.

US/EU meddling is about giving Ukraine some freedom to settle their own affairs.

Puh-leeeze, stop this nonsense. No one among EU/US politicians gave a fuck about Ukraine. The whole thing was about Russia.

It's no surprise that Ukraine went to total shit after independence = all Russias fault.

Nope, It's EU and current Ukrainian regime fault. EU-Ukraine agreement stopped most trade with Russia and the rest was stopped by Ukraine unilaterally and by their own will. "Free" EU-Ukraine trade is only free for EU, Ukraine is allowed to sell freely only stuff which they don't have.
This is the reason why Yanukovich decided not to sign that bullshit EU was offering him, he knew it was total and utter bullshit. And it was specifically designed that way.

The problems they have now, are also all Russia's fault. The entire civil war wasn't. It was all a Russian invasion.

Nope. there was no invasion.

Ehe... countries in NATO get more freedom. It's not a problem for those countries. It's pure benefit.

I don't generally dispute that. But Ukraine was not offered the usual deal. They were offered shit.

While on the other hand, the countries in the Russian "sphere of influence" are made Russia's bitch.

It's actually other way around. Russia pays big bucks to Belarus and were paying even bigger bucks to Ukraine for their loyalty.
I would personally cut all them loose, but that's me.

Countries around Russia need protection from Russia.

They need protection from each other too. I mean Ukraine versus Poland, Lithuania versus Latvia. Ukraine versus Hungary, Ukraine versus Romania.

USA hasn't got a perfect track record. But you can't compare USA and Russia when it comes to evil.

When it comes to foreign policy evils nobody comes close to US, I excluded Nazi Germany of course, it's a special case.

Crimea belongs to the Ukraine. Why? Because ethnicity and nationality are just artificial constructs anyway.

Crimea belongs to Russia, Why? Because the first thing current regime did when they got into power was to get rid of it. Yes, they literally got rid of Crimea by proclaiming their plan to get rid of all soviet legacy Yes, Crimea ironically IS soviet legacy, along with ..... Eastern Ukraine

The more we can keep borders fixed, the better it is for everyone.

Tell that to NATO.

I think we should do what we did against Iraq and Kuwait. Invade the Crimea, give it back to the Ukraine, and then pull our troops back. Make Russia understand that trying to grab countries is more trouble than it's worth.

Are you high or something?

I think anybody trying to grab land from anyone, for any reason, should be stopped.

Well, Then you should have stopped Ukrainian government from grabbing Crimea from Russia around 1992.

Everybody has a claim to everything anyway. History is messy. Sweden used to rule half of Europe. How about giving it back to Sweden? No? It's the same logic.

Yes, history is messy. Ukraine ruled Crimea for 25 years (illegaly so)

 

[LordKiran]

Something else to consider is to play the winter game with Russia:

Take land during the spring

Destroy as much property and infrastructure to the point of uselessness as you can possibly manage

Retreat during the winter


Wash, rinse, repeat until the Russian Federation is bled white through sheer attrition.

Bonus points if you destroy anything and everything that would make life during the Russian winter that much more bearable through tactical bombardment during.

 

[DrZoidberg]

Last time I checked the US president is a Russian stooge. So, sorry if I don't give a flying fuck about what the US ambassador to Russia thinks about it. I'm sure Russia expressed US meddling in Ukraine.

First of all, current US president is not a Russian stooge, he just a stooge. Second of all I am not talking about current ambassador, I am talking about Matlock.

But the very fact that Russia had a problem with it just proves the Western powers right.

Yeah, the whole foreign policy is based on harassing Russia.

Putin was treating the Ukraine as Russia's backyard.

No, he was not, he was paying them for being nice.

US/EU meddling is about giving Ukraine some freedom to settle their own affairs.

Puh-leeeze, stop this nonsense. No one among EU/US politicians gave a fuck about Ukraine. The whole thing was about Russia.

It's no surprise that Ukraine went to total shit after independence = all Russias fault.

Nope, It's EU and current Ukrainian regime fault. EU-Ukraine agreement stopped most trade with Russia and the rest was stopped by Ukraine unilaterally and by their own will. "Free" EU-Ukraine trade is only free for EU, Ukraine is allowed to sell freely only stuff which they don't have.
This is the reason why Yanukovich decided not to sign that bullshit EU was offering him, he knew it was total and utter bullshit. And it was specifically designed that way.

The problems they have now, are also all Russia's fault. The entire civil war wasn't. It was all a Russian invasion.

Nope. there was no invasion.

Ehe... countries in NATO get more freedom. It's not a problem for those countries. It's pure benefit.

I don't generally dispute that. But Ukraine was not offered the usual deal. They were offered shit.

While on the other hand, the countries in the Russian "sphere of influence" are made Russia's bitch.

It's actually other way around. Russia pays big bucks to Belarus and were paying even bigger bucks to Ukraine for their loyalty.
I would personally cut all them loose, but that's me.

Countries around Russia need protection from Russia.

They need protection from each other too. I mean Ukraine versus Poland, Lithuania versus Latvia. Ukraine versus Hungary, Ukraine versus Romania.

USA hasn't got a perfect track record. But you can't compare USA and Russia when it comes to evil.

When it comes to foreign policy evils nobody comes close to US, I excluded Nazi Germany of course, it's a special case.

Crimea belongs to the Ukraine. Why? Because ethnicity and nationality are just artificial constructs anyway.

Crimea belongs to Russia, Why? Because the first thing current regime did when they got into power was to get rid of it. Yes, they literally got rid of Crimea by proclaiming their plan to get rid of all soviet legacy Yes, Crimea ironically IS soviet legacy, along with ..... Eastern Ukraine

The more we can keep borders fixed, the better it is for everyone.

Tell that to NATO.

I think we should do what we did against Iraq and Kuwait. Invade the Crimea, give it back to the Ukraine, and then pull our troops back. Make Russia understand that trying to grab countries is more trouble than it's worth.

Are you high or something?

I think anybody trying to grab land from anyone, for any reason, should be stopped.

Well, Then you should have stopped Ukrainian government from grabbing Crimea from Russia around 1992.

Everybody has a claim to everything anyway. History is messy. Sweden used to rule half of Europe. How about giving it back to Sweden? No? It's the same logic.

Yes, history is messy. Ukraine ruled Crimea for 25 years (illegaly so)

This just makes my head hurt. You've got such a warped sense of reality. When the USSR fell apart it fell apart. As in actually fell apart. Saying that one part of the ex-country grabbed another part of the ex-country... it just makes my head spin. How do you manage to convince yourself that your words make any sense?

Admitting new members into NATO is not the same thing as expanding US borders. Your sense of reality is so twisted. USA has a hegemony. The USSR had an empire. Not officially. But in practice. It's completely different.

Everybody would be better off without the kind of "help" Russia offered Ukraine. I've spoken to Swedish journalists who were in Ukraine during the war. The Eastern Ukrainian rebels were all Russian regular soldiers in other uniforms. They were handling Russian military equipment. The same equipment they'd been training with. It was an invasion by Russia. The ethnically Russian east Ukrainians in support of the rebellion weren't allowed to fight by the Russian army. They were not handed weapons or trained. it was so blatant and in-your-face. The Russian soldiers barely bothered to hide it. It was the laziest attempt of subterfuge ever. Putin denying it is like a child with his hand inside the cookie jar claiming that he's not stealing cookies.

 

[Horatio Parker]

The Russians think about NATO invading them because that's what they would do.

And NATO thinks about russian invading them because that's what they would do.

Maybe some of the eastern members.

You are correct, NATO should be disbanded, it serves no purpose other than harassing Russia.

If sending the message that attacking one is attacking all is harassing, then yes.

I'm no geostrategist, but offhand, I'd say a weaker Russia is good for Europe.

You don't see how russians could have a problem with that?

Sure. But so what? Europe and Russia will always be at odds.

Who's going to take their place? Iran? China?

China will take Russia's place regardless.

We'll see. They've got a long way to go.

 

[LordKiran]

We'll see. They've got a long way to go.

Indeed, their export-based economy may very well burn out before they ever get the chance.

 

[barbos]

This just makes my head hurt. You've got such a warped sense of reality. When the USSR fell apart it fell apart. As in actually fell apart. Saying that one part of the ex-country grabbed another part of the ex-country... it just makes my head spin. How do you manage to convince yourself that your words make any sense?

Admitting new members into NATO is not the same thing as expanding US borders. Your sense of reality is so twisted. USA has a hegemony. The USSR had an empire. Not officially. But in practice. It's completely different.

Everybody would be better off without the kind of "help" Russia offered Ukraine. I've spoken to Swedish journalists who were in Ukraine during the war. The Eastern Ukrainian rebels were all Russian regular soldiers in other uniforms. They were handling Russian military equipment. The same equipment they'd been training with. It was an invasion by Russia. The ethnically Russian east Ukrainians in support of the rebellion weren't allowed to fight by the Russian army. They were not handed weapons or trained. it was so blatant and in-your-face. The Russian soldiers barely bothered to hide it. It was the laziest attempt of subterfuge ever. Putin denying it is like a child with his hand inside the cookie jar claiming that he's not stealing cookies.

You have a real tendency to comment on stuff you should not because of having no clue.

 

[barbos]

And NATO thinks about russian invading them because that's what they would do.

Maybe some of the eastern members.

No, they don't really think that. They say they think that in order to boost their significance within NATO and in general, get favors from US.
It's US critters who really think that, and since US influence in NATO is pretty absolute...

You are correct, NATO should be disbanded, it serves no purpose other than harassing Russia.

If sending the message that attacking one is attacking all is harassing, then yes.

Prospective NATO member (Georgia) attacks Russian peacekeppers in order to get back control over region which want nothtng to do with Georgia and you call Russa a bad guy instead of Russia?

I'm no geostrategist, but offhand, I'd say a weaker Russia is good for Europe.

You don't see how russians could have a problem with that?

Sure. But so what? Europe and Russia will always be at odds.

Why should they be? Why Europe can't accept Russia existence?

Who's going to take their place? Iran? China?

China will take Russia's place regardless.

We'll see. They've got a long way to go.

Not really, China economy is strong enough to allow it.

 

[DrZoidberg]

Sure. But so what? Europe and Russia will always be at odds.

Why should they be? Why Europe can't accept Russia existence?

Stop being so willfully dumb. Russia is an old imperial power. Just like the UK and France. The UK and France stopped being imperial powers. They obviously didn't do it because of love for the world. It's just that world peace benefits everybody. While imperialism has a winner, everybody loses. We're all better off not having empires. Russia is still nurturing imperial dreams. They're still behaving like the UK and France did in the 60'ies. Russia is having trouble accepting that they just need to respect other people's stuff. It doesn't matter that the stuff used to belong to them. Now it doesn't.

As soon as Russia stops behaving like an imperial power we'll have peace. And we can go on to be friendly neighbors. To prove that it works. In Europe it used to be easier to predict wars than the weather. They were so regular. When Europeans decided to accept the borders it became mostly peaceful. BTW, this was the aim of the Congress of Vienna. While we like to look at WWI and WWII as failures of the Congress of Vienna... they aren't. The period after the Napoleonic wars was amazingly peaceful, even if we count the two world wars. That's the power of fixing borders and not worrying about on who's side stuff is. We all have a claim to everything anyway.

That's why I think we should invade Russia and give the Crimea back to the Ukraine. For that simple reason. We should all get together and collude to prevent any land grabs. Right now Russia and China are the two biggest threat to world peace, for this single reason. They're both constantly looking for weaknesses in neighbors they can exploit to expand power.

 

[LordKiran]

Why should they be? Why Europe can't accept Russia existence?

Stop being so willfully dumb. Russia is an old imperial power. Just like the UK and France. The UK and France stopped being imperial powers. They obviously didn't do it because of love for the world. It's just that world peace benefits everybody. While imperialism has a winner, everybody loses. We're all better off not having empires. Russia is still nurturing imperial dreams. They're still behaving like the UK and France did in the 60'ies. Russia is having trouble accepting that they just need to respect other people's stuff. It doesn't matter that the stuff used to belong to them. Now it doesn't.

As soon as Russia stops behaving like an imperial power we'll have peace. And we can go on to be friendly neighbors. To prove that it works. In Europe it used to be easier to predict wars than the weather. They were so regular. When Europeans decided to accept the borders it became mostly peaceful. BTW, this was the aim of the Congress of Vienna. While we like to look at WWI and WWII as failures of the Congress of Vienna... they aren't. The period after the Napoleonic wars was amazingly peaceful, even if we count the two world wars. That's the power of fixing borders and not worrying about on who's side stuff is. We all have a claim to everything anyway.

That's why I think we should invade Russia and give the Crimea back to the Ukraine. For that simple reason. We should all get together and collude to prevent any land grabs. Right now Russia and China are the two biggest threat to world peace, for this single reason. They're both constantly looking for weaknesses in neighbors they can exploit to expand power.

I mean as long as we're 'fixing' borders, you might as well have land concessions made to the Fins too. Ideally both nations will self destruct before this happens though. Its believed that these imperialist ambitions are driven primarily by internal instabilities. What's your take on that?

 

[barbos]

Why should they be? Why Europe can't accept Russia existence?

Stop being so willfully dumb. Russia is an old imperial power. Just like the UK and France. The UK and France stopped being imperial powers. They obviously didn't do it because of love for the world. It's just that world peace benefits everybody. While imperialism has a winner, everybody loses. We're all better off not having empires. Russia is still nurturing imperial dreams. They're still behaving like the UK and France did in the 60'ies. Russia is having trouble accepting that they just need to respect other people's stuff. It doesn't matter that the stuff used to belong to them. Now it doesn't.

As soon as Russia stops behaving like an imperial power we'll have peace. And we can go on to be friendly neighbors. To prove that it works. In Europe it used to be easier to predict wars than the weather. They were so regular. When Europeans decided to accept the borders it became mostly peaceful. BTW, this was the aim of the Congress of Vienna. While we like to look at WWI and WWII as failures of the Congress of Vienna... they aren't. The period after the Napoleonic wars was amazingly peaceful, even if we count the two world wars. That's the power of fixing borders and not worrying about on who's side stuff is. We all have a claim to everything anyway.

That's why I think we should invade Russia and give the Crimea back to the Ukraine. For that simple reason. We should all get together and collude to prevent any land grabs. Right now Russia and China are the two biggest threat to world peace, for this single reason. They're both constantly looking for weaknesses in neighbors they can exploit to expand power.

As long as West refuses to listen to Russian concerns Russia will keep behaving the way it's behaving.

 

[Horatio Parker]

No, they don't really think that. They say they think that in order to boost their significance within NATO and in general, get favors from US.
It's US critters who really think that, and since US influence in NATO is pretty absolute...

So, Europe would be willing to "accept" Russia save for the US?

I don't think saying things gets you too many favors. Buying missile defense system, that's how you get favors.

Prospective NATO member (Georgia) attacks Russian peacekeppers in order to get back control over region which want nothtng to do with Georgia and you call Russa a bad guy instead of Russia?

I have no idea what this gibberish is supposed to mean, but can you limit your examples to real NATO members?

Why should they be? Why Europe can't accept Russia existence?

Because they're still committed to Enlightenment principles and not comfortable with the typical twisted authoritarian Russian perspective? Because they've been victimized by Russia in the past? Because Putin is clearly pursuing an expansionist agenda? Because we say they can't?

 

[barbos]

So, Europe would be willing to "accept" Russia save for the US?

What do you mean?

I don't think saying things gets you too many favors. Buying missile defense system, that's how you get favors.

You don't have to buy it, just allow it to be stationed.

Prospective NATO member (Georgia) attacks Russian peacekeppers in order to get back control over region which want nothtng to do with Georgia and you call Russa a bad guy instead of Russia Georgia?

I have no idea what this gibberish is supposed to mean, but can you limit your examples to real NATO members?

I made a typo. I was talking about Russia Georgia War of 2008. Western media does not like to discuss it too much because NATO does not look too good in it.
I can limit to NATO just fine: Current NATO members did not gave a proper response to action of Georgian government in that War.
Instead they blamed Russia as usual. Now, this obvious lie can work in the West, but it certainly can't work in Russia. People may not like Putin all they want, but they sure as hell are not buying western propaganda story about Georgia being in the right and Russia being in the wrong in that particular case.

Why should they be? Why Europe can't accept Russia existence?

Because they're still committed to Enlightenment principles and not comfortable with the typical twisted authoritarian Russian perspective? Because they've been victimized by Russia in the past? Because Putin is clearly pursuing an expansionist agenda? Because we say they can't?

That's a nice piece of theoretical bullshit you've got here.
I don't have a problem with abstract goals of the west. In fact I am sure Putin himself does not necessary disagree. I like all that western crap and wish Russia was like US/Europe. Problem I have is with practical implementation of western strategy with respect to Russia which is utterly confrontational.

Lots of people in EU are saying that strategy should be abandoned and West instead should entice Russia economically and with time it would get better. Trying to suffocate Russian economy does not get you anything but angry people who would vote for Putin.

 

[bilby]

Why should they be? Why Europe can't accept Russia existence?

Stop being so willfully dumb. Russia is an old imperial power. Just like the UK and France. The UK and France stopped being imperial powers. They obviously didn't do it because of love for the world. It's just that world peace benefits everybody. While imperialism has a winner, everybody loses. We're all better off not having empires. Russia is still nurturing imperial dreams. They're still behaving like the UK and France did in the 60'ies. Russia is having trouble accepting that they just need to respect other people's stuff. It doesn't matter that the stuff used to belong to them. Now it doesn't.

As soon as Russia stops behaving like an imperial power we'll have peace. And we can go on to be friendly neighbors. To prove that it works. In Europe it used to be easier to predict wars than the weather. They were so regular. When Europeans decided to accept the borders it became mostly peaceful. BTW, this was the aim of the Congress of Vienna. While we like to look at WWI and WWII as failures of the Congress of Vienna... they aren't. The period after the Napoleonic wars was amazingly peaceful, even if we count the two world wars. That's the power of fixing borders and not worrying about on who's side stuff is. We all have a claim to everything anyway.

That's why I think we should invade Russia and give the Crimea back to the Ukraine. For that simple reason. We should all get together and collude to prevent any land grabs. Right now Russia and China are the two biggest threat to world peace, for this single reason. They're both constantly looking for weaknesses in neighbors they can exploit to expand power.

I am confused.

You say you like fixed borders, and that is your justification for an invasion to move the current borders. That's... interesting.

At what date should we declare the borders 'fixed'? Clearly you don't mean today, if you think an invasion is justified to restore the borders to their fixed positions; So when do you think they should have been fixed, and why should everyone (or anyone) be expected to agree with your choice of date?

Should we invade whichever countries we need to in order to enforce a return to the borders as they were in 2010? 2000? 1990? 1930? 1910? 1810? 1610? Last Tuesday?

 

[barbos]

Stop being so willfully dumb. Russia is an old imperial power. Just like the UK and France. The UK and France stopped being imperial powers. They obviously didn't do it because of love for the world. It's just that world peace benefits everybody. While imperialism has a winner, everybody loses. We're all better off not having empires. Russia is still nurturing imperial dreams. They're still behaving like the UK and France did in the 60'ies. Russia is having trouble accepting that they just need to respect other people's stuff. It doesn't matter that the stuff used to belong to them. Now it doesn't.

As soon as Russia stops behaving like an imperial power we'll have peace. And we can go on to be friendly neighbors. To prove that it works. In Europe it used to be easier to predict wars than the weather. They were so regular. When Europeans decided to accept the borders it became mostly peaceful. BTW, this was the aim of the Congress of Vienna. While we like to look at WWI and WWII as failures of the Congress of Vienna... they aren't. The period after the Napoleonic wars was amazingly peaceful, even if we count the two world wars. That's the power of fixing borders and not worrying about on who's side stuff is. We all have a claim to everything anyway.

That's why I think we should invade Russia and give the Crimea back to the Ukraine. For that simple reason. We should all get together and collude to prevent any land grabs. Right now Russia and China are the two biggest threat to world peace, for this single reason. They're both constantly looking for weaknesses in neighbors they can exploit to expand power.

I am confused.

You say you like fixed borders, and that is your justification for an invasion to move the current borders. That's... interesting.

At what date should we declare the borders 'fixed'?

I think it should be August 21 1770

 

[J842P]

Why should they be? Why Europe can't accept Russia existence?

Stop being so willfully dumb. Russia is an old imperial power. Just like the UK and France. The UK and France stopped being imperial powers. They obviously didn't do it because of love for the world. It's just that world peace benefits everybody. While imperialism has a winner, everybody loses. We're all better off not having empires. Russia is still nurturing imperial dreams. They're still behaving like the UK and France did in the 60'ies. Russia is having trouble accepting that they just need to respect other people's stuff. It doesn't matter that the stuff used to belong to them. Now it doesn't.

As soon as Russia stops behaving like an imperial power we'll have peace. And we can go on to be friendly neighbors. To prove that it works. In Europe it used to be easier to predict wars than the weather. They were so regular. When Europeans decided to accept the borders it became mostly peaceful. BTW, this was the aim of the Congress of Vienna. While we like to look at WWI and WWII as failures of the Congress of Vienna... they aren't. The period after the Napoleonic wars was amazingly peaceful, even if we count the two world wars. That's the power of fixing borders and not worrying about on who's side stuff is. We all have a claim to everything anyway.

That's why I think we should invade Russia and give the Crimea back to the Ukraine. For that simple reason. We should all get together and collude to prevent any land grabs. Right now Russia and China are the two biggest threat to world peace, for this single reason. They're both constantly looking for weaknesses in neighbors they can exploit to expand power.

Lol the US and NATO invaded Afghanistan, something that wasn't theirs. Why don't you support invading Afghanistan and restoring it to the Taliban? The US, UK and various NATO members invaded Iraq and occupied Iraq, entirely unprovoked. And you expect people to give a shit about the Crimea? To help out a bunch of Ukrainian Nazis? Get real.

Lol. Yeah, the period after the Napoleonic wars was "peaceful" even including the two world wars! How can you expect to be taken seriously?