Man mansplains to other men about women's rage

[Toni]

There is a difference between not reading an article and just clearly not understanding an article. That shouldn't be mistaken as a defense for Trausti's opinion, rather just an indication I believe they read the blog post.

Ah, the practice of the religious fundamentalist. Dear Atheist, you may have read the Bible or Koran, but you do not understand it.

Yeah, Jimmy is a real gender traitor here. Real men don’t feel empathy for women.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

There is a difference between not reading an article and just clearly not understanding an article. That shouldn't be mistaken as a defense for Trausti's opinion, rather just an indication I believe they read the blog post.

Ah, the practice of the religious fundamentalist. Dear Atheist, you may have read the Bible or Koran, but you do not understand it.

Your remarks on it indicate you are clearly oblivious to their point. Trying to parallel this with the bible evangelism is just... well lazy on your part.

 

[Gun Nut]

Not sure I completely understand the point being made...

Is the point that being sexually assaulted hurts? A point to address those people (that I never heard of) that claim it feels good to be raped, therefore it is a good thing to do to people?

OR, is the point that the emotional pain of existence of Woman in a male-dominated society akin to a kick in the balls?

If the former, then I don't know what cartoon character they are addressing...
If the latter, then bullshit... emotional pain and physical pain are too different to compare... as if a woman getting a smile from a man that they do not find attractive causes them to writhe on the floor in debilitating pain. equivalently, a woman leading a man on to believe they will be having sex, and then not, is like menstrual cramps... so get woke women!

Is a "kick to the balls" all women think men understand on the topic of discomfort? That's pretty silly.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Not sure I completely understand the point being made...

Is the point that being sexually assaulted hurts? A point to address those people (that I never heard of) that claim it feels good to be raped, therefore it is a good thing to do to people?

No.

OR, is the point that the emotional pain of existence of Woman in a male-dominated society akin to a kick in the balls?

Not that either.

He is trying to create an awareness about how sexual harassment to sexual assault in many cases is a normalized behavior. The idea that your Dad will take you aside and tell you that people will repeatedly kick you in the downstairs, and you'll just have to accept it is ridiculous. If you got kicked in the crotch, no one is going to ask you, "What were you wearing?" Yet, women have had to accept the reality of being sexually harassed or assaulted, with absolutely no recourse. They have been told to second guess their own actions, not those of the perpetrator. And goodness help them if they speak up! *Imagining Derec starting threads about how men lie about getting punched in the crotch*

Is a "kick to the balls" all women think men understand on the topic of discomfort? That's pretty silly.

The person who came up with the analogy is a man.

 

[Gun Nut]

No.
Not that either.

He is trying to create an awareness about how sexual harassment to sexual assault in many cases is a normalized behavior. The idea that your Dad will take you aside and tell you that people will repeatedly kick you in the downstairs, and you'll just have to accept it is ridiculous. If you got kicked in the crotch, no one is going to ask you, "What were you wearing?" Yet, women have had to accept the reality of being sexually harassed or assaulted, with absolutely no recourse. They have been told to second guess their own actions, not those of the perpetrator. And goodness help them if they speak up! *Imagining Derec starting threads about how men lie about getting punched in the crotch*

Is a "kick to the balls" all women think men understand on the topic of discomfort? That's pretty silly.

The person who came up with the analogy is a man.

Yes, I do realize it was a man. OK, thank you for explaining that it was supposed to be about victim blaming... I must have read a totally different article than you... or all the ads on the page tricked me into thinking I read the whole article, but there was more after / behind the ads. Not revisiting, though.

usually there is a reason for getting kicked in the balls... or punched in the face... or yelled at... it rarely comes out of nowhere. I think this is the wrong message. Ask a man the last time his balls were stuck by someone and it will either be an accident, or they said or did something to invite an assault. Is that the message... rape is either an accident or they asked for it?

 

[Tom Sawyer]

No.
Not that either.

He is trying to create an awareness about how sexual harassment to sexual assault in many cases is a normalized behavior. The idea that your Dad will take you aside and tell you that people will repeatedly kick you in the downstairs, and you'll just have to accept it is ridiculous. If you got kicked in the crotch, no one is going to ask you, "What were you wearing?" Yet, women have had to accept the reality of being sexually harassed or assaulted, with absolutely no recourse. They have been told to second guess their own actions, not those of the perpetrator. And goodness help them if they speak up! *Imagining Derec starting threads about how men lie about getting punched in the crotch*

Is a "kick to the balls" all women think men understand on the topic of discomfort? That's pretty silly.

The person who came up with the analogy is a man.

Yes, I do realize it was a man. OK, thank you for explaining that it was supposed to be about victim blaming... I must have read a totally different article than you... or all the ads on the page tricked me into thinking I read the whole article, but there was more after / behind the ads. Not revisiting, though.

usually there is a reason for getting kicked in the balls... or punched in the face... or yelled at... it rarely comes out of nowhere. I think this is the wrong message. Ask a man the last time his balls were stuck by someone and it will either be an accident, or they said or did something to invite an assault. Is that the message... rape is either an accident or they asked for it?

This is what is called overextending the analogy. It's not meant to be a 1:1 comparison about all aspects of it, but simply framing the pain experienced by women as a result of these situations as a type of pain that men can relate to, regardless of how much they know or care about sexual assault. That's it. That's the analogy. When you take the analogy beyond that, you are no longer discussing anything that anybody but yourself is saying.

 

[Gun Nut]

Yes, I do realize it was a man. OK, thank you for explaining that it was supposed to be about victim blaming... I must have read a totally different article than you... or all the ads on the page tricked me into thinking I read the whole article, but there was more after / behind the ads. Not revisiting, though.

usually there is a reason for getting kicked in the balls... or punched in the face... or yelled at... it rarely comes out of nowhere. I think this is the wrong message. Ask a man the last time his balls were stuck by someone and it will either be an accident, or they said or did something to invite an assault. Is that the message... rape is either an accident or they asked for it?

This is what is called overextending the analogy. It's not meant to be a 1:1 comparison about all aspects of it, but simply framing the pain experienced by women as a result of these situations as a type of pain that men can relate to, regardless of how much they know or care about sexual assault. That's it. That's the analogy. When you take the analogy beyond that, you are no longer discussing anything that anybody but yourself is saying.

OK, I appreciate that... I'm totally onboard with keeping analogies scoped to their purpose... back to my original response, corrected, then;

Is a "kick to the balls" all women the audience think men understand on the topic of discomfort? That's pretty silly.

 

[Tom Sawyer]

It's not "all" they think we understand, it's just a very straightforward and easily understood concept of intense pain. Given that this is exactly the type of pain that the analogy was trying to reference, anything else they chose would have been a worse example than this obvious example.

 

[Gun Nut]

It's not "all" they think we understand, it's just a very straightforward and easily understood concept of intense pain. Given that this is exactly the type of pain that the analogy was trying to reference, anything else they chose would have been a worse example than this obvious example.

OK, I get it... color me unimpressed.

I view this like telling a woman that denying a man sex is like giving them menstrual cramps... because they just can't possibly understand that blue balls are uncomfortable.

 

[Tom Sawyer]

Ok ... good luck with all that, I guess?

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

Few men want to be kicked in the balls ever. Plenty of women do enjoy sex, and rape is a question of whether or not it is invited or forced. Not a very good analogy at all. Why do people think men can't understand rape itself being a horrible thing? Men also can get raped. And when they do, even less empathy is shown to them and they are believed less often than when women get raped.

 

[Metaphor]

I've heard girl and woman used as a term of belittlement, used by cowards who cannot defend their 'ideas.' Also the terms 'black' and 'gay' and a lot of other terms. Do you really believe that's what Floof was doing here?

Do you really believe that Floof meant to use 'mansplain' as a neutral term for ... 'explain'?

What is absurd is the number of men who haven't and who will not read the article but who nonetheless who make assumptions about the article and who continue to post gibberish rather than actually read and consider the viewpoint of the article. The absurdity start ed in post #2 and continues.

What is so scary about reading the article and then considering and discussing the premise of the article?

Not only did I read the article this time, I'd read the thing before. Needless to say, it didn't convince me the first time, much less the second.

The article starts with some amateur evolutionary psychology. Psychology certainly has a place to measure things like individual and group differences in empathy, though the author didn't refer to any psychological studies, only his own experience.

The real problem was his choice of analogy. I'd say it's a real problem not just because the analogy is absurd, but it was poorly chosen in terms of rhetoric meant to persuade. If a man already thinks sexual harassment is a non-issue, he is not going to be persuaded that a drunken leer at a woman's chest or a sleazy invitation to a hotel room is like being kicked in the nuts really hard. Because, well, it isn't.

 

[Toni]

Few men want to be kicked in the balls ever. Plenty of women do enjoy sex, and rape is a question of whether or not it is invited or forced. Not a very good analogy at all. Why do people think men can't understand rape itself being a horrible thing? Men also can get raped. And when they do, even less empathy is shown to them and they are believed less often than when women get raped.

Very few men are willing to entertain the possibility of being raped themselves.

I know of no one who denies that being hit or kicked in the balls is painful or argues that the victim wanted it.

Unfortunately, a lot of people don't believe that rape happens outside of scary man/dark alleyway, unless it's priests raping little boys. A lot of people seem to believe that women and girls ask for it, that it's not really rape and she shouldn't have dressed that way/gone there/had too much or anything at all to drink.

If you want to understand why some people don't think men understand rape being a horrible thing, just try reading the posts of some of the posters here in any thread about rape.

 

[Toni]

I've heard girl and woman used as a term of belittlement, used by cowards who cannot defend their 'ideas.' Also the terms 'black' and 'gay' and a lot of other terms. Do you really believe that's what Floof was doing here?

Do you really believe that Floof meant to use 'mansplain' as a neutral term for ... 'explain'?

What is absurd is the number of men who haven't and who will not read the article but who nonetheless who make assumptions about the article and who continue to post gibberish rather than actually read and consider the viewpoint of the article. The absurdity start ed in post #2 and continues.

What is so scary about reading the article and then considering and discussing the premise of the article?

Not only did I read the article this time, I'd read the thing before. Needless to say, it didn't convince me the first time, much less the second.

The article starts with some amateur evolutionary psychology. Psychology certainly has a place to measure things like individual and group differences in empathy, though the author didn't refer to any psychological studies, only his own experience.

The real problem was his choice of analogy. I'd say it's a real problem not just because the analogy is absurd, but it was poorly chosen in terms of rhetoric meant to persuade. If a man already thinks sexual harassment is a non-issue, he is not going to be persuaded that a drunken leer at a woman's chest or a sleazy invitation to a hotel room is like being kicked in the nuts really hard. Because, well, it isn't.

Well, it is kinda like being kicked in the nuts. Mostly because it's often a prelude to having a man's penis shoved in your face or crotch, often while having the shit beat out of you if you resist.

The real point of the article is that (many) men don't have much empathy for women. I think this thread has amply provided evidence that some men are incapable of or at least unwilling to have empathy for women.

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

Very few men are willing to entertain the possibility of being raped themselves.

Its not that hard to imagine.

I know of no one who denies that being hit or kicked in the balls is painful or argues that the victim wanted it.

Which is why its such a bad analogy.

A lot of people seem to believe that women and girls ask for it, that it's not really rape and she shouldn't have dressed that way/gone there/had too much or anything at all to drink.

Believe or seem to believe. That's not the same thing. I've seen plenty of folks who make the accusation that they believe this, but I've rarely encountered people who told me that they actually do believe this.

And saying she should take caution isn't the same thing as saying she had it coming or deserved it or wanted it.

 

[Toni]

Its not that hard to imagine.

It seems to be too hard for some. Or perhaps, just too terrible.

Which is why its such a bad analogy.

The undeserved infliction of pain in an intimate area of one's body? I think it's inadequate but I also think it was intended to meet men where most are. Most reflexively will cover their crotch at any suggestion that someone aim a kick or punch or ball there. An awful lot just giggle or smirk when someone talks about pinching a woman's boob or grabbing her in the crotch. (see Trump's video and the reaction it garnered and the reactions/non-reactions of his followers).

A lot of people seem to believe that women and girls ask for it, that it's not really rape and she shouldn't have dressed that way/gone there/had too much or anything at all to drink.

Believe or seem to believe. That's not the same thing. I've seen plenty of folks who make the accusation that they believe this, but I've rarely encountered people who told me that they actually do believe this.

And I've been told that a woman can't really be raped unless she's unconscious. Or dead.

And saying she should take caution isn't the same thing as saying she had it coming or deserved it or wanted it.

Nobody suggests that boys or men should wear cups at all times, or if they go out to bars or walk in bad neighborhoods or aren't virgins or wear tight pants or have too much or anything to drink.

I don't think that men really comprehend what it is like to have a constant barrage of cautions hurled at you when you just want to be able to go about your life. Or how big that lump is in your throat when you find yourself warning your daughters or other young girls and women you love and care about--and the rage in their faces. Maybe black parents do. Maybe the parents of gay or trans kids who live in hostile environments and worry about something happening to their kids like happened to Matthew Shepherd... I don't know. Except that women aren't interested in taking it anymore. Not anymore than blacks or Hispanics or queer people are.

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

And I've been told that a woman can't really be raped unless she's unconscious. Or dead.

By who? How often? That's a horrible thing to say or to believe. It sounds like something you made up, but I'll take your word for it.

Nobody suggests that boys or men should wear cups at all times, or if they go out to bars or walk in bad neighborhoods or aren't virgins or wear tight pants or have too much or anything to drink.

Again, the kicking in the balls thing is a bad analogy. Boys are told to be careful when walking at night, to go with a friend etc.Men aren't, even though men get assaulted more often than women do, mostly because society gives less of a fuck about men's safety than women's. That's part of the same stereotypes and gender roles thing that feed into misogyny.

Or how big that lump is in your throat when you find yourself warning your daughters or other young girls and women you love and care about--and the rage in their faces. Maybe black parents do. Maybe the parents of gay or trans kids who live in hostile environments and worry about something happening to their kids like happened to Matthew Shepherd... I don't know. Except that women aren't interested in taking it anymore. Not anymore than blacks or Hispanics or queer people are.

I'm brown and queer. I think I can relate.

 

[Toni]

By who? How often? That's a horrible thing to say or to believe. It sounds like something you made up, but I'll take your word for it.

Unfortunately, more than once and by more than one man. Including someone I babysat for when I was a teen. Oh I wasn’t afraid of him—I knew he was afraid of my dad. Just horrified and grossed out. I liked his wife and kid tho.

Again, the kicking in the balls thing is a bad analogy. Boys are told to be careful when walking at night, to go with a friend etc.Men aren't, even though men get assaulted more often than women do, mostly because society gives less of a fuck about men's safety than women's. That's part of the same stereotypes and gender roles thing that feed into misogyny.

But this discussion has centered on sexual assault. Women are also cautioned about being robbed or assaulted. Men are not blamed by society if they are beaten up or told they really liked it or wanted it.

Or how big that lump is in your throat when you find yourself warning your daughters or other young girls and women you love and care about--and the rage in their faces. Maybe black parents do. Maybe the parents of gay or trans kids who live in hostile environments and worry about something happening to their kids like happened to Matthew Shepherd... I don't know. Except that women aren't interested in taking it anymore. Not anymore than blacks or Hispanics or queer people are.

I'm brown and queer. I think I can relate.

That’s a start. Unfortunate about the why’s of it.

 

[jab]

I think you have it backwards:

https://www.apa.org/monitor/dec04/women

Women are nearly five times more likely to show an automatic preference for their own gender than men are to show such favoritism for their own gender, according to a study in the October issue of the Journal of Personality and Social Psychology (Vol. 87, No. 4).

Through four experiments, psychologists Laurie A. Rudman, PhD, of Rutgers, and Stephanie A. Goodwin, PhD, of Purdue University, used the Implicit Association Test to discover 204 heterosexual college students' automatic gender preferences and gender identity by asking them to associate positive and negative gender-free words with either "men" or "women." They also tested participants' self-esteem by asking them to associate those words with "I" or "others."

Both male and female participants associated the positive words--such as good, happy and sunshine--more often with women than with men, Rudman says.

Moreover, men and women tended to show high implicit self-esteem and high gender identity; however, men showed low pro-male gender attitudes, according to the study.

"A clear pattern shown in all four studies is that men do not like themselves automatically as much as women like themselves," Rudman says. "This contradicts a lot of theoretical thinking about implicit attitudes regarding status differences."

Are these studies about men and women or about 21st-century American men and women? What is their scope?

 

[jab]

Man Perfectly Explains Women’s Rage Today Using Brutal Analogy So That All Men Can Finally Understand It

“Speaking on the societally-macro level, empathy has been largely a one-way street when it comes to gender roles and dynamics,” Moxon told Bored Panda. “In my experience, women are empathetic toward men, while men tend not to be particularly empathetic toward women.”
who depart from the straight and binary path.)

“Put another way, women have to think about what men are feeling as a matter of survival. Men aren’t in a similar situation, and so, if they don’t want to, they don’t. And, by and large, we don’t want to.”

Please have the maturity and honesty to read the whole thing before commenting in this thread.

to borrow Moxon's rhetorical device--"in my experience, men", particularly heterosexual men, tend not to be empathetic to other men as well. Moxon is describing a gender-related problem, but somewhat too narrowly. Also he seems to be pretending that sexualized violence--which includes being deliberately kicked in the balls--is just violence. If this is the case, men's deadly violence towards other men needs to be part of the discussion.
Men, especially heterosexual men, are raised to have less empathy, on average, than women, and to value violence and aggression--little boys are praised for such displays; most little girls are discouraged from such displays. So sexualized violence is one outcome of this decreased empathy and amped-up aggression being built into so many males' psyches. Moxon's analysis of the greater empathy of women, in general, seems accurate but a bit narrow. This empathy is also tied into a functionalist view of society's needs: not just for men's needs and women's survival, but for child rearing, and to have a humane and somewhat caring aspect of society, a society needs some emphatic adults. Women are raised to have that skill. (not all gender specific rearing turns out exactly as designed, and there are individuals who depart from the straight and binary path.)