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Martina Navratilova dropped by LGBT group over trans athletes row

I was wondering when this would come up.

(CNN)An LGBT group has cut ties with tennis great Martina Navratilova after she said it was a form of "cheating" for transgender women to be allowed to compete in women's sport.

New York-based Athlete Ally, which supports LGBT sportspeople, called the comments transphobic and removed the 18-time Grand Slam winner from its advisory board and as an ambassador.

https://www.cnn.com/2019/02/20/tenn...a-dropped-lgbt-group-scli-spt-intl/index.html

Personally, I don't think she's being transphobic. And I think the LGBT community/group is really overreacting and missing a huge opportunity to move their cause further.

I agree. Let the trans people have their own competitions. They're clearly doping. That's what hormone treatment is. Either we're fine with it, or we're not. If not, they shouldn't compete with those not on doping.

But why should it matter where said 'dope' comes from?

I don't think it is a meaningful distinction to say "this person here had their steroids produced by their gonads" vs "this person here had their steroids produced in a laboratory" when it's the same goddamn steroid. To say that this difference is meaningful is to literally engage in the genetic fallacy. The body doesn't care where hormones came from. It just reacts to what they are as it will.

It is an arbitrary distinction to say that 'male' athelete's testosterone is acceptable, others' testosterone is not.

I reiterate my previous post that we should recognize this, and shift our leagues to not be about gender but about hormone use/exposure.
 
I was wondering when this would come up.

(CNN)An LGBT group has cut ties with tennis great Martina Navratilova after she said it was a form of "cheating" for transgender women to be allowed to compete in women's sport.

New York-based Athlete Ally, which supports LGBT sportspeople, called the comments transphobic and removed the 18-time Grand Slam winner from its advisory board and as an ambassador.

https://www.cnn.com/2019/02/20/tenn...a-dropped-lgbt-group-scli-spt-intl/index.html

Personally, I don't think she's being transphobic. And I think the LGBT community/group is really overreacting and missing a huge opportunity to move their cause further.

I agree. Let the trans people have their own competitions. They're clearly doping. That's what hormone treatment is. Either we're fine with it, or we're not. If not, they shouldn't compete with those not on doping.

The issue, at least in the above cases, is not that they are doping it's that they are entering women's competitions while biologically male. I believe it is already against the rules of most federations to enter women's competitions while doping.
 
I reiterate my previous post that we should recognize this, and shift our leagues to not be about gender but about hormone use/exposure.

But testosterone and hormones aren't the deciding factors in performance differences between the genders. Particularly in events which require a lot of cardio, men have larger lung capacity and replenish their oxygen more quickly. Men have denser leg muscles and a hip design more conducive to running. There's very good reasons that men's track times are at least 10% better than women's on a consistent basis and hormone levels are only a minor part of that. If you don't separate men and women into different divisions, all you're doing is relegating women to to the bottom of the pack.

Even if you had all these different divisions based on other things, you're still having one of them be the major league and the rest really just being the little leagues and, in a large number of sports, women would just never be able to compete in the majors. If one of the goals is to have athletics for women actually be a thing (and that is one of the goals), having them compete against men instead of against other women is about the worst way to go about that.
 
I agree. Let the trans people have their own competitions. They're clearly doping. That's what hormone treatment is. Either we're fine with it, or we're not. If not, they shouldn't compete with those not on doping.

The issue, at least in the above cases, is not that they are doping it's that they are entering women's competitions while biologically male. I believe it is already against the rules of most federations to enter women's competitions while doping.

When it comes to trans issues what is considered biologically male is debatable. You clearly have an opinion on the matter. But other people have other opinions.

My main issue with this is that when they introduce testosterone blockers they have no idea if the testosterone levels the person has as a female, are anywhere near what testosterone levels they should have.

Matt/Janae Kroc is a good example. Before transition he was one of the world's best male power lifters. After transitioning she was the world's best female power lifter.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Janae_Kroc

How is it even possible to speculate on what is fair here? How would we even set up methods for calculating fairness? I argue it's not possible, so I think we shouldn't let trans athletes compete with non-trans athletes.
 
I reiterate my previous post that we should recognize this, and shift our leagues to not be about gender but about hormone use/exposure.

But testosterone and hormones aren't the deciding factors in performance differences between the genders. Particularly in events which require a lot of cardio, men have larger lung capacity and replenish their oxygen more quickly. Men have denser leg muscles and a hip design more conducive to running. There's very good reasons that men's track times are at least 10% better than women's on a consistent basis and hormone levels are only a minor part of that. If you don't separate men and women into different divisions, all you're doing is relegating women to to the bottom of the pack.

Even if you had all these different divisions based on other things, you're still having one of them be the major league and the rest really just being the little leagues and, in a large number of sports, women would just never be able to compete in the majors. If one of the goals is to have athletics for women actually be a thing (and that is one of the goals), having them compete against men instead of against other women is about the worst way to go about that.

See, there you go again. By talking about "men" and "women" as if they are set biological constructs you out yourself as a transopobic bigot.

Some women do have bigger lungs, denser leg muscles, dicks, balls, etc. Some men have vaginas.
 
I reiterate my previous post that we should recognize this, and shift our leagues to not be about gender but about hormone use/exposure.

But testosterone and hormones aren't the deciding factors in performance differences between the genders. Particularly in events which require a lot of cardio, men have larger lung capacity and replenish their oxygen more quickly. Men have denser leg muscles and a hip design more conducive to running. There's very good reasons that men's track times are at least 10% better than women's on a consistent basis and hormone levels are only a minor part of that. If you don't separate men and women into different divisions, all you're doing is relegating women to to the bottom of the pack.

Even if you had all these different divisions based on other things, you're still having one of them be the major league and the rest really just being the little leagues and, in a large number of sports, women would just never be able to compete in the majors. If one of the goals is to have athletics for women actually be a thing (and that is one of the goals), having them compete against men instead of against other women is about the worst way to go about that.
Seriously?

The thing that makes men this way is the fucking steroids.

Testosterone and hormones are 100% the basis for all the differences you describe. They are literally the chemical drivers of dimorphism.

It's about steroid use. Some get their steroids for "free" starting at a young age. Some get a lot. Some get a little. Some supplement their steroids with more steroids. Some reduce or eliminate their steroids. By differentiating sports on the basis of what, and when, steroid exposure happens, we get the divisions without the divisiveness.

And besides, we already have one "major" league and a bunch of "minor" leagues, and women are already excluded. If someone wants to be a woman in sports, though, I think they should have a right to use testosterone from a (pubescent) teen age, and do so even if they are not "trans".
 
I agree. Let the trans people have their own competitions. They're clearly doping. That's what hormone treatment is. Either we're fine with it, or we're not. If not, they shouldn't compete with those not on doping.

The issue, at least in the above cases, is not that they are doping it's that they are entering women's competitions while biologically male. I believe it is already against the rules of most federations to enter women's competitions while doping.

When it comes to trans issues what is considered biologically male is debatable. You clearly have an opinion on the matter. But other people have other opinions.

I'm actively trying to avoid a semantic debate on what is a man/male/biological male etc. If you have a word that makes you happy that convey's the concept of a person "that we called a man for most of human history who can kick all the asses of what we formerly called a woman for most of human history at sports" I'm happy to use your term.

It's rather hard to have a discussion about women's sports without some definition of "woman" that justifies there being "women's sports".
 
And besides, we already have one "major" league and a bunch of "minor" leagues, and women are already excluded. If someone wants to be a woman in sports, though, I think they should have a right to use testosterone from a (pubescent) teen age, and do so even if they are not "trans".

I'm not aware of any league which excludes women.
 
I reiterate my previous post that we should recognize this, and shift our leagues to not be about gender but about hormone use/exposure.

But testosterone and hormones aren't the deciding factors in performance differences between the genders. Particularly in events which require a lot of cardio, men have larger lung capacity and replenish their oxygen more quickly. Men have denser leg muscles and a hip design more conducive to running. There's very good reasons that men's track times are at least 10% better than women's on a consistent basis and hormone levels are only a minor part of that. If you don't separate men and women into different divisions, all you're doing is relegating women to to the bottom of the pack.

Even if you had all these different divisions based on other things, you're still having one of them be the major league and the rest really just being the little leagues and, in a large number of sports, women would just never be able to compete in the majors. If one of the goals is to have athletics for women actually be a thing (and that is one of the goals), having them compete against men instead of against other women is about the worst way to go about that.
Seriously?

The thing that makes men this way is the fucking steroids.

Testosterone and hormones are 100% the basis for all the differences you describe. They are literally the chemical drivers of dimorphism.

It's about steroid use. Some get their steroids for "free" starting at a young age. Some get a lot. Some get a little. Some supplement their steroids with more steroids. Some reduce or eliminate their steroids. By differentiating sports on the basis of what, and when, steroid exposure happens, we get the divisions without the divisiveness.

And besides, we already have one "major" league and a bunch of "minor" leagues, and women are already excluded. If someone wants to be a woman in sports, though, I think they should have a right to use testosterone from a (pubescent) teen age, and do so even if they are not "trans".

Yes, it all basically comes down to hormones, but separating the leagues based on hormone levels indicates that the separation is done on the level of hormones at the time of competition. That is not the case. If a woman in her 20's decides to start taking a bunch of hormone shots and ups her testosterone levels to be the same as a man's she will never be able to compete on an equal level with men who have been training their entire lives to build the musculature, lung capacity, hemoglobin levels, etc while having those higher hormone levels. Similarly, a man who decides to identify as a woman and compete as one, so they start taking estrogen shots to lower their testosterone levels will have already built up a body which gives him a clear and decisive advantage against all the women who would be in his league.

When you're separating these various leagues based on hormone levels, how are you taking that sort of thing into account? It's not like in a boxing match where the weight at the time of competition is actually the important factor to be considered.
 
Because let's face it, talking about who was a "man" or a "woman" or whether someone has a "man-body" or a "woman-body" is arbitrary, subjective, and frankly is *offensive*, especially when the whole point is whether, and how, someone is exposed to hormones.

It is neither arbitrary nor subjective.
 
Seriously?

The thing that makes men this way is the fucking steroids.

Testosterone and hormones are 100% the basis for all the differences you describe. They are literally the chemical drivers of dimorphism.

It's about steroid use. Some get their steroids for "free" starting at a young age. Some get a lot. Some get a little. Some supplement their steroids with more steroids. Some reduce or eliminate their steroids. By differentiating sports on the basis of what, and when, steroid exposure happens, we get the divisions without the divisiveness.

And besides, we already have one "major" league and a bunch of "minor" leagues, and women are already excluded. If someone wants to be a woman in sports, though, I think they should have a right to use testosterone from a (pubescent) teen age, and do so even if they are not "trans".

Yes, it all basically comes down to hormones, but separating the leagues based on hormone levels indicates that the separation is done on the level of hormones at the time of competition. That is not the case. If a woman in her 20's decides to start taking a bunch of hormone shots and ups her testosterone levels to be the same as a man's she will never be able to compete on an equal level with men who have been training their entire lives to build the musculature, lung capacity, hemoglobin levels, etc while having those higher hormone levels. Similarly, a man who decides to identify as a woman and compete as one, so they start taking estrogen shots to lower their testosterone levels will have already built up a body which gives him a clear and decisive advantage against all the women who would be in his league.

When you're separating these various leagues based on hormone levels, how are you taking that sort of thing into account? It's not like in a boxing match where the weight at the time of competition is actually the important factor to be considered.

Not necessarily at all. Instead, we should be tracking lifetime exposures and critical exposures. Hence the additional levels of differentiation. I'd imagine the middle levels, outside of (no limit) and (no exposure) would be (current, limited exposure w/o teenage exposure), (adult limited exposure WITH teenage exposure), and (no recent exposure WITH teenage exposure).

Of course this would require record-keeping for sports participations in some of those fields, and regular levels testing.
 
Not necessarily at all. Instead, we should be tracking lifetime exposures and critical exposures. Hence the additional levels of differentiation. I'd imagine the middle levels, outside of (no limit) and (no exposure) would be (current, limited exposure w/o teenage exposure), (adult limited exposure WITH teenage exposure), and (no recent exposure WITH teenage exposure).

Of course this would require record-keeping for sports participations in some of those fields, and regular levels testing.

Well ... good job on making the implementation so clunky, overly complex and unwieldy that nothing could ever be done, I guess? I suppose it will be a little bit of consolation that when your league folds into bankruptcy because nobody wanted to bother with that and parents weren't cool with your taking constant blood samples from their kids for the sake of your own internal metrics which were irrelevant anyways due to all the various sampling inconsistencies throughout different areas so everybody signed up to other leagues, you'll have the satisfaction of sitting around in a bar complaining loudly to all the other patrons about how the problem was that everyone was stupid except for you.
 
Not necessarily at all. Instead, we should be tracking lifetime exposures and critical exposures. Hence the additional levels of differentiation. I'd imagine the middle levels, outside of (no limit) and (no exposure) would be (current, limited exposure w/o teenage exposure), (adult limited exposure WITH teenage exposure), and (no recent exposure WITH teenage exposure).

Of course this would require record-keeping for sports participations in some of those fields, and regular levels testing.

Well ... good job on making the implementation so clunky, overly complex and unwieldy that nothing could ever be done, I guess? I suppose it will be a little bit of consolation that when your league folds into bankruptcy because nobody wanted to bother with that and parents weren't cool with your taking constant blood samples from their kids for the sake of your own internal metrics which were irrelevant anyways due to all the various sampling inconsistencies throughout different areas so everybody signed up to other leagues, you'll have the satisfaction of sitting around in a bar complaining loudly to all the other patrons about how the problem was that everyone was stupid except for you.

Steroids testing should always be standard for all sports with steroid limitations, especially when there is pressure for steroid use by young adults and teenagers for highschool and college sports. These are also things that are monitored medically as standard procedure for just being a child in puberty. It's not data that isn't already being collected so stop acting as if it were.

Second, nothing any more "clunky" about this than a lot of other things you already take for granted in society. I mean look at the fucking weight classes in wrestling and boxing. Surely something as "clunky" as separating a sport into many gradiations on the basis of weight would bankrupt the league, right? Except it doesn't.

I'd imagine at the end of the day, there would probably be some discussion over which was the "better" league, (no limit), vs (natural limit), vs (no exposure).
 
Steroids testing should always be standard for all sports with steroid limitations, especially when there is pressure for steroid use by young adults and teenagers for highschool and college sports. These are also things that are monitored medically as standard procedure for just being a child in puberty. It's not data that isn't already being collected so stop acting as if it were.

Second, nothing any more "clunky" about this than a lot of other things you already take for granted in society. I mean look at the fucking weight classes in wrestling and boxing. Surely something as "clunky" as separating a sport into many gradiations on the basis of weight would bankrupt the league, right? Except it doesn't.

I'd imagine at the end of the day, there would probably be some discussion over which was the "better" league, (no limit), vs (natural limit), vs (no exposure).

There is a vast difference between having people stand on a scale before a fight and having people track and monitor results of blood sampling across the course of decades. As one basic example of one basic aspect of it, I quick google search found that a hormone test here in Toronto costs about $270. Now, assuming that price is standard and your league gets a bulk discount so it's only $200 per athlete and parents or schools only need to get the test every couple of years in order to track progress through puberty, what's their motivation to sign up with your league as opposed to a competing league which does not have these additional costs? If they do go with another league and athletes don't enter into getting the mandatory regular hormonal tests until they're older so you only need to worry about these costs with the subset of athletes who've shown that they'll be taking the competitions seriously, how would the results have any value whatsoever (since they would have already matured with perhaps different hormone levels)?

I just don't see how you get from your vague and general idea to actual implementations, particularly at a local level. Could you provide a few more details?
 
Not necessarily at all. Instead, we should be tracking lifetime exposures and critical exposures. Hence the additional levels of differentiation. I'd imagine the middle levels, outside of (no limit) and (no exposure) would be (current, limited exposure w/o teenage exposure), (adult limited exposure WITH teenage exposure), and (no recent exposure WITH teenage exposure).

Of course this would require record-keeping for sports participations in some of those fields, and regular levels testing.

Well ... good job on making the implementation so clunky, overly complex and unwieldy that nothing could ever be done, I guess? I suppose it will be a little bit of consolation that when your league folds into bankruptcy because nobody wanted to bother with that and parents weren't cool with your taking constant blood samples from their kids for the sake of your own internal metrics which were irrelevant anyways due to all the various sampling inconsistencies throughout different areas so everybody signed up to other leagues, you'll have the satisfaction of sitting around in a bar complaining loudly to all the other patrons about how the problem was that everyone was stupid except for you.

Well, I, for one, am looking forward to paying thousands of dollars for 50 yard line seats to the 3/4 full of testosterone football league (The 3/4TFL) Super Bowl.

Especially if it's the Dallas 3/4boys versus Cincinnati Been-gals.

Assuming they can come up with a credible way of keeping those brutish 7/8thT goliaths out.
 
Steroids testing should always be standard for all sports with steroid limitations, especially when there is pressure for steroid use by young adults and teenagers for highschool and college sports. These are also things that are monitored medically as standard procedure for just being a child in puberty. It's not data that isn't already being collected so stop acting as if it were.

Second, nothing any more "clunky" about this than a lot of other things you already take for granted in society. I mean look at the fucking weight classes in wrestling and boxing. Surely something as "clunky" as separating a sport into many gradiations on the basis of weight would bankrupt the league, right? Except it doesn't.

I'd imagine at the end of the day, there would probably be some discussion over which was the "better" league, (no limit), vs (natural limit), vs (no exposure).

There is a vast difference between having people stand on a scale before a fight and having people track and monitor results of blood sampling across the course of decades. As one basic example of one basic aspect of it, I quick google search found that a hormone test here in Toronto costs about $270. Now, assuming that price is standard and your league gets a bulk discount so it's only $200 per athlete and parents or schools only need to get the test every couple of years in order to track progress through puberty, what's their motivation to sign up with your league as opposed to a competing league which does not have these additional costs? If they do go with another league and athletes don't enter into getting the mandatory regular hormonal tests until they're older so you only need to worry about these costs with the subset of athletes who've shown that they'll be taking the competitions seriously, how would the results have any value whatsoever (since they would have already matured with perhaps different hormone levels)?

I just don't see how you get from your vague and general idea to actual implementations, particularly at a local level. Could you provide a few more details?

Ah. So apparently you do not understand about normal medical processes surrounding health and human development of adolescents. These tests happen automatically as a child ages, and are performed by doctors.

You are ignoring the fact that *these are matters that every healthy teenager should already being monitored for*, probably once a year or so. It is also something that *every current modern sports team should also be monitoring for, WRT steroid use. And will college and later levels of sports, the money is available and necessary for regular screening, as they are already supposed to test for steroids. Those who are born withoht gonads that make it, but who take testosterone are already going to be taking tests regularly to monitor hormone levels, as are those who take suppressors for testosterone. This is part for the course for trans people. For cis person's, you just have to make sure they aren't using undeclared steroids. Your entire conversation on monitoring costs is a non-starter.

All we have to do is require this testing information that we already have be available to regulators and kept on file to adjudicate qualifications.

Next, since these are restrictions to prevent unfair advantage from being leveraged against those who do not have that advantage. In fact this is the entire basis of the argument for excluding trans athletes in the first place. The two "standard" leagues, in fact, already exist. They just aren't "called" by their hormonal requirements. In the "natural full lifetime testosterone exposure limit" situation, we call that "men's professional sports". And as many have already pointed out, being restricted to a reasonable "maximum" hormone exposure limit doesn't mean that those below those limits or maintaining a more strict limitation are disqualified from participating in normal professional leagues. A person with no testosterone exposure probably wouldn't make the cut for such sports, but that is something to be determined on an individual basis. The only people such a scheme would reject from the "primary" sports field would be people who are taking (or producing) abnormal testosterone levels.

For the "No T at all" group, we have "professional women's sports". I could, in fact, imagine a world where people born with penises might actually want to forego T exposure through medical means, so as to distinguish their abilities and skills without the crutch of testosterone.

Of course, all this would throw a major wrench into the works of many sports clubs since steroid use and abuse is widespread and this would fairly conclusively end the opportunity to do so.

These are generally binary situations, to burst the bubble of various gaslighting in this thread: either you have normal range testosterone through puberty years or you don't. Either you have normal-range testosterone levels as an *adult* or you don't. This creates four categories, with a fifth open to those who have abnormally high testosterone levels, or for those who juice freely and are rejected from core leagues under the steroid requirements that already exist.

It opens up opportunities for 'women' who would like to start taking or competing with steroids and for men who were born without testicles.

It opens up opportunities people who took steroids through highschool, and then quit, or for people who were born with testicles qnd then decided that testosterone wasn't their jam.

It doesn't require any additional testing beyond what is already done, taking on good faith those with the morphology consistent with normal puberty levels and no failed steroid tests would qualify for "primary professional sports". The same goes for "hormonally unassisted professional sports". The only *real* new categories this creates are "testosterone in puberty but not now" and "testosterone now but not in puberty".

As to the medical implications of letting people decide for themselves if and when they use steroids, fuck off with that bullshit. People deserve a right to bodily self-determination.
 
I agree. Let the trans people have their own competitions. They're clearly doping. That's what hormone treatment is. Either we're fine with it, or we're not. If not, they shouldn't compete with those not on doping.

MTF don't take any hormones that would improve performance. FTM's do but since they're generally inferior to birth-males it's not a problem.

The issue is that they originally trained while under the influence of testosterone and it has been found that to some degree the effects of training persist a lifetime. I don't see any good answer here--ideal would be if they had their own category but there aren't enough of them for that.
 
One funny thing about this is it seems to me that Martina looks like she had key timing much higher exposure or increased sensitivity (genetics) to testosterone compared to the vast majority of women.

I mean look at that facial structure, talk about a stone lesbian face even down to the countenance that comes from neural wiring. That seems hormonal.
 
One funny thing about this is it seems to me that Martina looks like she had key timing much higher exposure or increased sensitivity (genetics) to testosterone compared to the vast majority of women.

I mean look at that facial structure, talk about a stone lesbian face even down to the countenance that comes from neural wiring. That seems hormonal.

Real lesbians are rarely like those in the movies.
 
Seems to be making a mountain out of a molehill there, but if that molehill self-identifies as a mountain, who are we to argue?

She does have a technically valid point, but if nobody is actually doing that then it's a moot point about a non-existent problem. Especially if they put rules in place like the Olympics to test testosterone levels for a year beforehand in order to limit potential advantages, then it would be fine.

Calling her statement transphobic is taking it too far, though. At worst, it's a misunderstanding of the details about the matter on her part.

Because there's this...

[YOUTUBE]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zVGXuEhgzQM[/YOUTUBE]

Here's Joe Rogan discussing the controversy on his podcast:

[YOUTUBE]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KQpQmNhya14&t=997s[/YOUTUBE]

I guess you're not a "real" member the LGBTQ community (despite breaking barriers and being an ambassador for most of your life) unless you can get behind a transgender female beating the living shit out of natural biological females. Seems legit. I want to be seen as supporting the LGBTQ community...so "GO FALLON....BEAT THE FUCKING SHIT OUT OF THOSE BITCHES WITH YOUR MALE SKELETAL SYSTEM AND HAM SIZED FISTS!!!"

Finally, we can all agree that everyone is being treated equally and fairly.
 
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