Matter/energy/spacetime qualia

[untermensche]

I have no reason to doubt I am making my fingers type the letters I am choosing.

All you have is a feeling or intuition.

No.

I have ideas that I must use the will to construct that I believe.

And to get these ideas expressed on a message board requires I have the ability to force my fingers to type them.

The experience is clearly of me forcing my fingers to type the words I choose.

 

[ryan]

I have no reason to doubt I am making my fingers type the letters I am choosing.

All you have is a feeling or intuition.

No.

I have ideas that I must use the will to construct that I believe.

And to get these ideas expressed on a message board requires I have the ability to force my fingers to type them.

The experience is clearly of me forcing my fingers to type the words I choose.

It can only seem this way until you know how it works. It does not deserve this certainty.

 

[DBT]

The words you choose to type come to mind by the work of a brain. Without which, nothing comes to mind.

 

[untermensche]

The words you choose to type come to mind by the work of a brain. Without which, nothing comes to mind.

I can force a pink elephant dancing on it's trunk to come to mind. With practice I can do it easier and make it more elaborate. I can think about what I want to think about in other words. Like Einstein forced himself to think about light and moving as fast as light. The brain is the slave to the mind.

An idea is not something the brain creates like it creates the visual experience.

First one must have a language to have access to ideas. To acquire a language requires exposure to one.

Then one must have exposure to the idea to have access to it.

But there is also the aspect of the mind called "understanding". This is a further step from mere exposure to ideas.

Some ideas randomly come to mind from memory.

Some ideas can be created by thinking about other ideas. This only takes place in the mind.

And the understanding of an idea only takes place in a mind.

The brain is a dumb tool. It does not understand ideas.

 

[untermensche]

No.

I have ideas that I must use the will to construct that I believe.

And to get these ideas expressed on a message board requires I have the ability to force my fingers to type them.

The experience is clearly of me forcing my fingers to type the words I choose.

It can only seem this way until you know how it works. It does not deserve this certainty.

That's fanciful nothingness with nothing to imagine it true.

It is like imagining we are just a brain in a vat somewhere. No reason to think that is true.

There is no reason to doubt the mind is moving the fingers when the mind wants "giraffe" typed out.

There is no reason to doubt the mind has chosen which ideas it will believe and which it will not.

The entire criminal justice system and legal system are based on the ideas that humans are autonomous agents that act freely.

No neuroscientists are demanding either system be shut down.

 

[ryan]

No.

I have ideas that I must use the will to construct that I believe.

And to get these ideas expressed on a message board requires I have the ability to force my fingers to type them.

The experience is clearly of me forcing my fingers to type the words I choose.

It can only seem this way until you know how it works. It does not deserve this certainty.

That's fanciful nothingness with nothing to imagine it true.

It is like imagining we are just a brain in a vat somewhere. No reason to think that is true.

There is no reason to doubt the mind is moving the fingers when the mind wants "giraffe" typed out.

But what you have to go on is not enough. Don't you want to rule out an epiphenomenal (consciousness is affected but does no affect) mind before jumping to certainty?

There is no reason to doubt the mind has chosen which ideas it will believe and which it will not.

The entire criminal justice system and legal system are based on the ideas that humans are autonomous agents that act freely.

No neuroscientists are demanding either system be shut down.

I told you that I don't have a positive position on free will. We may have it or may not. Your certainty is premature.

And a killer needs to be rehabilitated chosen freely or not.

 

[steve_bank]

If your mind is a ghost, I do not believe in ghosts. Your type of speculations are a few centries behind. Brain operates by what we call chemistry. There are no demonstrations of mind being anything but based on brain chemistry and part of the brain.

At some point most rational people reach a conclusion based on observation and science, except for the religious and mystically inclined.

Do you believe that the mind emerges from processes in the brain? If you do, then how does the mind emerge from non-mental parts? Explain this, and I will stop calling it a ghost.

I will withdraw from this. It will go on and on.

Mind is af unction of brain. You can get hooked into infinite metaphysics with no possible resolution. Good luck on your quest.

 

[untermensche]

That's fanciful nothingness with nothing to imagine it true.

It is like imagining we are just a brain in a vat somewhere. No reason to think that is true.

There is no reason to doubt the mind is moving the fingers when the mind wants "giraffe" typed out.

But what you have to go on is not enough. Don't you want to rule out an epiphenomenal (consciousness is affected but does no affect) mind before jumping to certainty?

There is no reason to think that.

It is at the level of thinking we are nothing but a brain in a vat somewhere. Nothing even suggests it is true.

WE know what movement without the mind causing it feels like. It is like the patellar reflex. The leg just jumps on it's own.

That is not the way voluntary movement feels. The way voluntary movement feels is like the mind is in control and commanding a specific movement and the movement occurs exactly as desired.

If the brain is moving the body on it's own without the direction of the mind why does the mind experience being in control? Why this wasted energy?

It takes energy to trick the mind and make it believe it is in control.

I told you that I don't have a positive position on free will. We may have it or may not. Your certainty is premature.

If you think you have the ability to make the decision you already believe you have the freedom to do it.

What decision do you think you do not have the power to decide?

Can you decide what time you will go to bed?

Can you decide what you will drink?

 

[DBT]

The words you choose to type come to mind by the work of a brain. Without which, nothing comes to mind.

I can force a pink elephant dancing on it's trunk to come to mind. With practice I can do it easier and make it more elaborate. I can think about what I want to think about in other words. Like Einstein forced himself to think about light and moving as fast as light. The brain is the slave to the mind.

An idea is not something the brain creates like it creates the visual experience.

First one must have a language to have access to ideas. To acquire a language requires exposure to one.

Then one must have exposure to the idea to have access to it.

But there is also the aspect of the mind called "understanding". This is a further step from mere exposure to ideas.

Some ideas randomly come to mind from memory.

Some ideas can be created by thinking about other ideas. This only takes place in the mind.

And the understanding of an idea only takes place in a mind.

The brain is a dumb tool. It does not understand ideas.

Your remark just shows that you not understand neuroscience, or what I said.

 

[ryan]

There is no reason to think that.

It is at the level of thinking we are nothing but a brain in a vat somewhere. Nothing even suggests it is true.

WE know what movement without the mind causing it feels like. It is like the patellar reflex. The leg just jumps on it's own.

That is not the way voluntary movement feels. The way voluntary movement feels is like the mind is in control and commanding a specific movement and the movement occurs exactly as desired.

If the brain is moving the body on it's own without the direction of the mind why does the mind experience being in control? Why this wasted energy?

It takes energy to trick the mind and make it believe it is in control.

I told you that I don't have a positive position on free will. We may have it or may not. Your certainty is premature.

If you think you have the ability to make the decision you already believe you have the freedom to do it.

What decision do you think you do not have the power to decide?

Can you decide what time you will go to bed?

Can you decide what you will drink?

Since we are not using evidence, the argument can go either way. We might be like a log floating down stream thinking that we are in control, when really it is our environment. I don't see how you can ignore this possibility.

Yes it seems like we are in control, but there are many examples of illusions in nature.

You need much more for certainty.

 

[untermensche]

The words you choose to type come to mind by the work of a brain. Without which, nothing comes to mind.

I can force a pink elephant dancing on it's trunk to come to mind. With practice I can do it easier and make it more elaborate. I can think about what I want to think about in other words. Like Einstein forced himself to think about light and moving as fast as light. The brain is the slave to the mind.

An idea is not something the brain creates like it creates the visual experience.

First one must have a language to have access to ideas. To acquire a language requires exposure to one.

Then one must have exposure to the idea to have access to it.

But there is also the aspect of the mind called "understanding". This is a further step from mere exposure to ideas.

Some ideas randomly come to mind from memory.

Some ideas can be created by thinking about other ideas. This only takes place in the mind.

And the understanding of an idea only takes place in a mind.

The brain is a dumb tool. It does not understand ideas.

Your remark just shows that you not understand neuroscience, or what I said.

This remark shows you are unable to think. You have addressed absolutely nothing.

Perhaps I am wrong.

Perhaps all do not have the autonomy I have.

- - - Updated - - -

There is no reason to think that.

It is at the level of thinking we are nothing but a brain in a vat somewhere. Nothing even suggests it is true.

WE know what movement without the mind causing it feels like. It is like the patellar reflex. The leg just jumps on it's own.

That is not the way voluntary movement feels. The way voluntary movement feels is like the mind is in control and commanding a specific movement and the movement occurs exactly as desired.

If the brain is moving the body on it's own without the direction of the mind why does the mind experience being in control? Why this wasted energy?

It takes energy to trick the mind and make it believe it is in control.

I told you that I don't have a positive position on free will. We may have it or may not. Your certainty is premature.

If you think you have the ability to make the decision you already believe you have the freedom to do it.

What decision do you think you do not have the power to decide?

Can you decide what time you will go to bed?

Can you decide what you will drink?

Since we are not using evidence, the argument can go either way. We might be like a log floating down stream thinking that we are in control, when really it is our environment. I don't see how you can ignore this possibility.

Yes it seems like we are in control, but there are many examples of illusions in nature.

You need much more for certainty.

I am using evidence. Words put together in grammatical order is clear evidence of the ideas behind them.

This is about ideas.

Can you decide if a human has free will if you don't have the ability to make free decisions?

 

[ryan]

I am using evidence. Words put together in grammatical order is clear evidence of the ideas behind them.

This is about ideas.

Can you decide if a human has free will if you don't have the ability to make free decisions?

Why not? This just goes back to brain processes possibly generating these thoughts like questioning free will. Nature has tricked us before; this could be another one.

 

[untermensche]

Nature has tricked us?

You mean like deliberately played a trick?

 

[ryan]

Nature has tricked us?

You mean like deliberately played a trick?

Diverting from the point? Did I say deliberately?

 

[untermensche]

Nature has tricked us?

You mean like deliberately played a trick?

Diverting from the point? Did I say deliberately?

If the mind is being tricked it is a deliberate tricking.

If it is a trick, an illusion, the brain is not only moving the arm but the brain is also expending energy to somehow trick the mind that the mind is commanding the movement.

Why expend this energy?

 

[ryan]

Nature has tricked us?

You mean like deliberately played a trick?

Diverting from the point? Did I say deliberately?

If the mind is being tricked it is a deliberate tricking.

If it is a trick, an illusion, the brain is not only moving the arm but the brain is also expending energy to somehow trick the mind that the mind is commanding the movement.

Why expend this energy?

The correlation from a brain state to the generated thought, "I will move my arm" does not necessarily cost extra energy. The movement may just be part of a causal chain of atoms, cells, etc. One can reasonably conceive of a body with no mind while it spends the same amount of energy as if it had a mind..