Maybe the universe has always existed

[fromderinside]

Someone has come up with a exception to entropy?

Big bang

Ah a point. A point of origin or a point of discontinuity? It discontinuity what's to suggest entropy wasn't operative over the entire regime. If complex (multiverse) what suggests entropy isn't operative throughout. Maybe there's evidence out there of declining multiverse stability or something like that?

So I don't take your exception obviously.

 

[FinBack]

I believe the universe has always existed, in one form or another, and i also think there are an infinite number of universes.. Lawrence Krouss explains 'A universe from nothing' where 'Nothing' is actually 'Something'

If that is true then there WAS something before the big bang, ( I don't think the big bang ever happened or needed to have happened..) This 'Something' that was contained in 'Nothing' combined together over time to form the stars and planets.

Ok we have entropy but entropy could be caused by something else other than a 'Big Bang'. Stars exploding and bouncing off each other? There could be something outside (OUR) universe the we can't observe or understand that is pulling the stars away from us in all directions?

Doe's what i have said make any sense?

 

[Speakpigeon]

Someone has come up with a exception to entropy?

Big bang

blah-blah-blah-blah-blah-blah

Entropy in the act.

Obviously entropy is still at work and it works in mysterious ways.
EB

 

[Speakpigeon]

Someone has come up with a exception to entropy?

Big bang

I don't remember ever having understood why the Big Bang would be like an exception to entropy. Could you explain your point to show you how wrong you are?
EB

 

[fromderinside]

Big bang

I don't remember ever having understood why the Big Bang would be like an exception to entropy. Could you explain your point to show you how wrong you are?
EB

Either no temperature or temperature went up before bang.

 

[Juma]

Big bang

I don't remember ever having understood why the Big Bang would be like an exception to entropy. Could you explain your point to show you how wrong you are?
EB

Big crunch/big bang results in total order: a singularity which then expands and is filled with disorder.

 

[Speakpigeon]

Someone has come up with a exception to entropy?

Big bang

I don't remember ever having understood why the Big Bang would be like an exception to entropy. Could you explain your point to show you how wrong you are?

Big crunch/big bang results in total order: a singularity which then expands and is filled with disorder.

So entropy is just... increasing from zero, yes?

Much as one would expect, yes?

How is that an exception?
EB

 

[Juma]

Someone has come up with a exception to entropy?

Big bang

I don't remember ever having understood why the Big Bang would be like an exception to entropy. Could you explain your point to show you how wrong you are?

Big crunch/big bang results in total order: a singularity which then expands and is filled with disorder.

So entropy is just... increasing from zero, yes?

Much as one would expect, yes?

How is that an exception?
EB

How could you miss the part about total order? Read again.

 

[Speakpigeon]

I take "Big crunch/big bang results in total order" to mean that the itinial state of the Big Bang is total order.

If you meant something else then try to write proper English sentences for a change.
EB

 

[Juma]

I take "Big crunch/big bang results in total order" to mean that the itinial state of the Big Bang is total order.

Yes. So?

 

[Underseer]

What cracks me up is that it is currently in vogue with apologists to insist that time began with the universe.

If this is in fact the case, then the universe must have been uncaused. If there was no time before the universe, then there was no "before," and thus there could have been no cause.

Now, it seems possible to me that time existed in some form before the universe. I say this because we have found evidence of other big bangs in the background radiation of our universe. Those could only have traveled from other universes to our universe if some kind or form of time and space existed between those other universes and our own. Otherwise, how would the photons have made it here?

However, apologists like W.L. Craig insist that time began with the universe, but that the universe must have a cause, which is simply absurd.

 

[HellFire]

I believe the universe has always existed, in one form or another, and i also think there are an infinite number of universes.. Lawrence Krouss explains 'A universe from nothing' where 'Nothing' is actually 'Something'

If that is true then there WAS something before the big bang, ( I don't think the big bang ever happened or needed to have happened..) This 'Something' that was contained in 'Nothing' combined together over time to form the stars and planets.

Ok we have entropy but entropy could be caused by something else other than a 'Big Bang'. Stars exploding and bouncing off each other? There could be something outside (OUR) universe the we can't observe or understand that is pulling the stars away from us in all directions?

Doe's what i have said make any sense?

I'm with Finback on this one.The Universe(s)have always existed and had not a beginning.I have not any evidence or even a strong argument for my beliefs.Its just when I think about it going backwards,if there was a time of nothingness,then there could not be a beginning to start something.Nothing would exist to get the ball rolling.About this time thing,I thought time was a human construct for explaining change or something to that effect?? Finally the Universe(s) always existing has nothing to do with a god always existing.

Tim

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

Finally the Universe(s) always existing has nothing to do with a god always existing.Tim

To exist something must be real. Therefore gods cannot exist. As soon as someone shows me one I'll change my mind.

 

[HellFire]

Finally the Universe(s) always existing has nothing to do with a god always existing.Tim

To exist something must be real. Therefore gods cannot exist. As soon as someone shows me one I'll change my mind.

I agree.

 

[Speakpigeon]

Finally the Universe(s) always existing has nothing to do with a god always existing.Tim

To exist something must be real. Therefore gods cannot exist. As soon as someone shows me one I'll change my mind.

You'll change your mind when God says so...
EB

- - - Updated - - -

What cracks me up is that it is currently in vogue with apologists to insist that time began with the universe.

If this is in fact the case, then the universe must have been uncaused. If there was no time before the universe, then there was no "before," and thus there could have been no cause.

Now, it seems possible to me that time existed in some form before the universe. I say this because we have found evidence of other big bangs in the background radiation of our universe. Those could only have traveled from other universes to our universe if some kind or form of time and space existed between those other universes and our own. Otherwise, how would the photons have made it here?

However, apologists like W.L. Craig insist that time began with the universe, but that the universe must have a cause, which is simply absurd.

Why is that absurd exactly?
EB

 

[Speakpigeon]

I'm with Finback on this one.The Universe(s)have always existed and had not a beginning.I have not any evidence or even a strong argument for my beliefs.

Ok, we all believe things.

Its just when I think about it going backwards,if there was a time of nothingness,then there could not be a beginning to start something.Nothing would exist to get the ball rolling.

I think the problem is only apparent. Whether time is fundamental or epiphenomenal, if there is time (at any moment in time) there is something, i.e. time itself if time is fundamental, or something else causing the appearance of time if time is epiphenomenal. So, it can't be the case that there would be a time of nothingness.


We have to accept that there is something (now). So, the question has to be whether there has always been something or if there has been a beginning to time (finite past), meaning that nothing existed before this begining of time. I grant you that it seems possible logically that there has always been something. However, I don't see that it is not also logically possible there has been a beginning to time (and that nothing existed before that). If there has been a beginning in time, then our world would not have been caused (assuming that the cause always comes before the effect) and I don't see why that would be a problem.
EB

 

[Clivedurdle]

Time might also be emergent - once the universe(s) get complex enough, time emerges or starts, the big bang might be a transition or reaction, like hydrogen and oxygen becoming water.

I think it is quite possible for things to exist without time or space and still be real! I wonder if there are any examples around? Entropy?

And if gods were real would they then implode as logical impossibilities, thus causing the a rent in the fabric of spacetime and the universes to cease to exist?

(Should we always talk of spacetime? Maybe time is a fiction?)

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

I think most people, when they say "nothing," mean a quantity of zero. The two are are not equivalent. Add to this that there is no evidence for "nothing." It remains one of those words or ideas that we use repeatedly in conversation but when examined is unsubstantiated. It's a reasoned position that proceeds from our being able to observe somethingness everywhere all the time. Were it a hypothesis that someone decided to test it would fail for lack of evidence and definition, same as your typical god. Yet it is an essential ingredient in many if not most god tales.

And our physics is hardly complete. What we're doing today will seem like kids playing marbles in another millennium. God today is kinda like the big marble that started all the marble games. You can't have the very first marble game unless you had the very first marble and god is that marble that some kid just found that obviously to that kid never had a beginning.

 

[Speakpigeon]

Time might also be emergent - once the universe(s) get complex enough, time emerges or starts, the big bang might be a transition or reaction, like hydrogen and oxygen becoming water.

I think it is quite possible for things to exist without time or space and still be real! I wonder if there are any examples around? Entropy?

And if gods were real would they then implode as logical impossibilities, thus causing the a rent in the fabric of spacetime and the universes to cease to exist?

(Should we always talk of spacetime? Maybe time is a fiction?)

Let's assume as you suggest that time (objective time, as measured by clocks) is emergent. What difference would that make? An emergent time would still be just as real and we would just as much in it than we are supposed to be in the absolute time we normally think exists.

If your idea is that time wouldn't exist at all and would be a fiction then you may have a more difficult problem to explain: How could we possibly experience time if time was a complete fiction? To say that time is a fiction implies that we cannot be in time. The moments we think we experience are not moments. Yet, we do have different experiences of reality. If each experience is indeed different then we have to have a space that contain them. If there isn't such a space or if they don't form a continuous line within that space, how come we can jump from one experience to the next?

Can you even conceive that your experience of going through different experiences is entirely illusory? Me I don't think so.

But maybe time is a fiction. The question is to articulate an alternative to time that would be compatible with our subjective experience.
EB

 

[Tom in Napa]

Why do we allow all this arguing about a fiction? Maybe the answer to the question which came first, the chicken or the egg, is both?

Paraphrasing JFK: Ask not whether the chicken or the egg came first. Ask instead whether the chicken or the chicken egg came first.