Moved Medical school admissions and race - was: VP pick

[Derec]

Bullshit. Leftists are all about race-based policies.

Certainly explains why leftists support things like "medicare for all" which means everyone regardless of race etc.

Race-based policies like so-called "affirmative action", which is about giving applicants of certain races or ethnicities a significant benefit over others.
Example: medical school admissions:

 

[Toni]

Bullshit. Leftists are all about race-based policies.

Certainly explains why leftists support things like "medicare for all" which means everyone regardless of race etc.

Race-based policies like so-called "affirmative action", which is about giving applicants of certain races or ethnicities a significant benefit over others.
Example: medical school admissions:
View attachment 47163

OMG look at all of those unqualified white boys getting in ahead of Asians!

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Bullshit. Leftists are all about race-based policies.

Certainly explains why leftists support things like "medicare for all" which means everyone regardless of race etc.

Race-based policies like so-called "affirmative action", which is about giving applicants of certain races or ethnicities a significant benefit over others.
Example: medical school admissions:
View attachment 47163

OMG look at all of those unqualified white boys getting in ahead of Asians!

That might be useful in dealing with a racist but to those of us who want a colorblind society it's not an argument at all. Yes, Asians are far more discriminated against by the universities than whites are.

 

[Toni]

Bullshit. Leftists are all about race-based policies.

Certainly explains why leftists support things like "medicare for all" which means everyone regardless of race etc.

Race-based policies like so-called "affirmative action", which is about giving applicants of certain races or ethnicities a significant benefit over others.
Example: medical school admissions:
View attachment 47163

OMG look at all of those unqualified white boys getting in ahead of Asians!

That might be useful in dealing with a racist but to those of us who want a colorblind society it's not an argument at all. Yes, Asians are far more discriminated against by the universities than whites are.

I know: the stories you hear of poor Asians not getting into every single university they apply to! The horror!

 

[Derec]

OMG look at all of those unqualified white boys getting in ahead of Asians!

How do you figure? If you look at the numbers vs. population sizes, whites are significantly underrepresented despite having grades and scores much better than blacks and Hispanics.
Both Asians and whites are being discriminated against by med schools to the benefit of blacks and Hispanics with mediocre grades and scores.

 

[Toni]

OMG look at all of those unqualified white boys getting in ahead of Asians!

How do you figure? If you look at the numbers vs. population sizes, whites are significantly underrepresented despite having grades and scores much better than blacks and Hispanics.
Both Asians and whites are being discriminated against by med schools to the benefit of blacks and Hispanics with mediocre grades and scores.

Actually I was being a bit sarcastic. As a portion of the general population, Asians are very much over-represented in medical school admissions. These charts assume--falsely--that test scores and grades are the only thing that count when determining who will make the best physician. They truly are not. One has to also have significant skills working as part of a team, cooperation, being able to relate to others, understanding human behavior and human psychology and other so called 'soft' skills. One must also be able to deal with high levels of stress over long periods of time, work very long, hard hours and one also must be confident and decisive.

The grades and test scores of black, Hispanic and Native American applicants are not mediocre. They are quite good --not markedly different than the scores of Asian or white applicants.

One of the smartest people I've ever known was in a number of classes with me. She was rebelling against her academic parents by aspiring to medical school. She tolerated biology classes and took math and physics for fun. Her test scores were easily the top of any and every class she was in. Her GPA was perfect, her MCAT scores were excellent. She did not get into medical school. Which was a really good thing, actually. She's a lovely person but not particularly personable or able to relate well with others, on anything other than a pretty intellectual level. She earned her Ph.D. in mathematics and is a tenured professor of mathematics, which is what one would guess she should be if you knew her and talked to her for more than 5 minutes.

Not everyone who does well academically and tests well is suited to become a medical doctor. But sometimes people pursue career paths for reasons that are not related to what they actually want or what their actual strengths are. Sometimes people do not realize exactly what 'soft' skills and personalities are suited to what kinds of careers.

The charts also do not account for the potential to falsely reflect the applicant pool by failing to account for the number of schools any applicant applies to.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Actually I was being a bit sarcastic. As a portion of the general population, Asians are very much over-represented in medical school admissions. These charts assume--falsely--that test scores and grades are the only thing that count when determining who will make the best physician. They truly are not. One has to also have significant skills working as part of a team, cooperation, being able to relate to others, understanding human behavior and human psychology and other so called 'soft' skills. One must also be able to deal with high levels of stress over long periods of time, work very long, hard hours and one also must be confident and decisive.

And we have what evidence that that doesn't describe Asians very well??

Sounds like the comment before about no qualified blacks applying. You think the Asians aren't qualified??

The grades and test scores of black, Hispanic and Native American applicants are not mediocre. They are quite good --not markedly different than the scores of Asian or white applicants.

That doesn't pass the laugh test.

The charts also do not account for the potential to falsely reflect the applicant pool by failing to account for the number of schools any applicant applies to.

Why should that have any bearing? We are looking at the ones who already got pass a particular gate, not the ones that got past any gate.

 

[Toni]

Actually I was being a bit sarcastic. As a portion of the general population, Asians are very much over-represented in medical school admissions. These charts assume--falsely--that test scores and grades are the only thing that count when determining who will make the best physician. They truly are not. One has to also have significant skills working as part of a team, cooperation, being able to relate to others, understanding human behavior and human psychology and other so called 'soft' skills. One must also be able to deal with high levels of stress over long periods of time, work very long, hard hours and one also must be confident and decisive.

And we have what evidence that that doesn't describe Asians very well??

Sounds like the comment before about no qualified blacks applying. You think the Asians aren't qualified??

The grades and test scores of black, Hispanic and Native American applicants are not mediocre. They are quite good --not markedly different than the scores of Asian or white applicants.

That doesn't pass the laugh test.

The charts also do not account for the potential to falsely reflect the applicant pool by failing to account for the number of schools any applicant applies to.

Why should that have any bearing? We are looking at the ones who already got pass a particular gate, not the ones that got past any gate.

I do not think a few points of a GPA or test score determines whether or not someone would be a good physician. There is zero evidence that medical schools admit students who are not qualified or that a few points on an MCAT or GPA makes any difference at all in what kind of doctor someone will be.

Skin color or racial make up do not determine whether or not someone will be a good doctor.

But it IS important that doctors are able to relate well to all of their patients, to gain the patient’s trust and confidence. Medical care is not best delivered by a chat bot.

I am sorry that you are not able to understand the relevance or lack there of of a few points difference on a test score, averaged across a population of students.

 

[Derec]

Actually I was being a bit sarcastic.

Seems to be going around in this thread.

As a portion of the general population, Asians are very much over-represented in medical school admissions.

They are. But should that be the standard? If Asians are 6% of the population, then 6% of med school admissions should be Asian? Or should applicants to med schools be treated as individuals, and neither discriminated for nor against based on their race or ethnicity? The former used to a liberal value.

These charts assume--falsely--that test scores and grades are the only thing that count when determining who will make the best physician.

These charts do not assume that, and neither do I subscribe to that. Obviously there is more than academic prowess that is important in a physician. However, race and ethnicity should not be a factor. When you see markedly different grades and scores by ethnicity, that indicates that race and ethnicity play a significant role in admissions.

They truly are not.

We can agree there. In fact, I do not think you will find anybody who disagrees.

One has to also have significant skills working as part of a team, cooperation, being able to relate to others, understanding human behavior and human psychology and other so called 'soft' skills. One must also be able to deal with high levels of stress over long periods of time, work very long, hard hours and one also must be confident and decisive.

You would have to assume that these attributes are found more frequently in blacks and less frequently in Asians for the distribution in that chart to make sense without race/ethnic discrimination. I do not think there is any reason to assume that that is the case.

The grades and test scores of black, Hispanic and Native American applicants are not mediocre. They are quite good --not markedly different than the scores of Asian or white applicants.

Actually, they are markedly different. MCAT is not scored from 0, the scale is 472-528. Mean MCAT score for Asians is 514.3, an 89th percentile. Whites are at 512.4, somewhat lower at the 84th percentile. Blacks, on the other hand had a mean MCAT of 505.7, a 67th percentile. A huge difference. Note also that these percentiles are among all that take the test, whether or not they get into med school or even choose to apply.
Amerindians are even worse btw. Their mean MCAT is 502.2, a 54th percentile!
Another thing. The chart lists standard deviations too. For blacks, mean - sd = 499.1 or 45th percentile. That means that assuming normal distribution and using the empirical rule, ~16% of blacks getting into med school had MCAT scores below that.

I do not think how people can seriously argue that these numbers are possible without a great deal of racial discrimination.

Her GPA was perfect, her MCAT scores were excellent. She did not get into medical school.

Is she Asian?

Which was a really good thing, actually. She's a lovely person but not particularly personable or able to relate well with others, on anything other than a pretty intellectual level.

I don't know. There are specialties with less patient interaction such as pathology or radiology. And in any case, I'd rather have a brilliant doctor like Dr. House than a 499 MCAT with a great bedside manner.

Not everyone who does well academically and tests well is suited to become a medical doctor. But sometimes people pursue career paths for reasons that are not related to what they actually want or what their actual strengths are. Sometimes people do not realize exactly what 'soft' skills and personalities are suited to what kinds of careers.

Do you really think these "soft" skills are more common in blacks, Hispanics and Amerindians and less common in whites and Asians? Because you'd have to argue that if you want to use that argument to argue that racial discrimination is not the cause for the huge difference in stats for different racial and ethnic groups.

The charts also do not account for the potential to falsely reflect the applicant pool by failing to account for the number of schools any applicant applies to.

I do not even see how that would affect the data presented in the chart.

 

[Derec]

Skin color or racial make up do not determine whether or not someone will be a good doctor.

Exactly. And yet med schools use race and ethnicity to discriminate against certain applicants and for others. I am arguing that they should not be doing that, but that they rather should treat each applicant as an individual.

I am sorry that you are not able to understand the relevance or lack there of of a few points difference on a test score, averaged across a population of students.

Averaged across a population of students (large N) even small differences would be statistically significant.
But in this case, the differences in grades and MCAT scores are large and would be statistically significant even if N was small.

 

[Toni]

Skin color or racial make up do not determine whether or not someone will be a good doctor.

Exactly. And yet med schools use race and ethnicity to discriminate against certain applicants and for others. I am arguing that they should not be doing that, but that they rather should treat each applicant as an individual.

I am sorry that you are not able to understand the relevance or lack there of of a few points difference on a test score, averaged across a population of students.

Averaged across a population of students (large N) even small differences would be statistically significant.
But in this case, the differences in grades and MCAT scores are large and would be statistically significant even if N was small.

No. You see someone ( white or Asian)not getting a spot in a particular medical school when some other person who is neither white nor Asian dies get a spot in medical school as racial discrimination. You fail to grasp that medical school admissions boards look at more than just GPAs and MCAT scores. This has been discussed and explained to you many times over the years. Understanding it is something you have to do for yourself.

 

[Toni]

Actually I was being a bit sarcastic.

Seems to be going around in this thread.

As a portion of the general population, Asians are very much over-represented in medical school admissions.

They are. But should that be the standard? If Asians are 6% of the population, then 6% of med school admissions should be Asian? Or should applicants to med schools be treated as individuals, and neither discriminated for nor against based on their race or ethnicity? The former used to a liberal value.

These charts assume--falsely--that test scores and grades are the only thing that count when determining who will make the best physician.

These charts do not assume that, and neither do I subscribe to that. Obviously there is more than academic prowess that is important in a physician. However, race and ethnicity should not be a factor. When you see markedly different grades and scores by ethnicity, that indicates that race and ethnicity play a significant role in admissions.

They truly are not.

We can agree there. In fact, I do not think you will find anybody who disagrees.

One has to also have significant skills working as part of a team, cooperation, being able to relate to others, understanding human behavior and human psychology and other so called 'soft' skills. One must also be able to deal with high levels of stress over long periods of time, work very long, hard hours and one also must be confident and decisive.

You would have to assume that these attributes are found more frequently in blacks and less frequently in Asians for the distribution in that chart to make sense without race/ethnic discrimination. I do not think there is any reason to assume that that is the case.

The grades and test scores of black, Hispanic and Native American applicants are not mediocre. They are quite good --not markedly different than the scores of Asian or white applicants.

Actually, they are markedly different. MCAT is not scored from 0, the scale is 472-528. Mean MCAT score for Asians is 514.3, an 89th percentile. Whites are at 512.4, somewhat lower at the 84th percentile. Blacks, on the other hand had a mean MCAT of 505.7, a 67th percentile. A huge difference. Note also that these percentiles are among all that take the test, whether or not they get into med school or even choose to apply.
Amerindians are even worse btw. Their mean MCAT is 502.2, a 54th percentile!
Another thing. The chart lists standard deviations too. For blacks, mean - sd = 499.1 or 45th percentile. That means that assuming normal distribution and using the empirical rule, ~16% of blacks getting into med school had MCAT scores below that.

I do not think how people can seriously argue that these numbers are possible without a great deal of racial discrimination.

Her GPA was perfect, her MCAT scores were excellent. She did not get into medical school.

Is she Asian?

Which was a really good thing, actually. She's a lovely person but not particularly personable or able to relate well with others, on anything other than a pretty intellectual level.

I don't know. There are specialties with less patient interaction such as pathology or radiology. And in any case, I'd rather have a brilliant doctor like Dr. House than a 499 MCAT with a great bedside manner.

Not everyone who does well academically and tests well is suited to become a medical doctor. But sometimes people pursue career paths for reasons that are not related to what they actually want or what their actual strengths are. Sometimes people do not realize exactly what 'soft' skills and personalities are suited to what kinds of careers.

Do you really think these "soft" skills are more common in blacks, Hispanics and Amerindians and less common in whites and Asians? Because you'd have to argue that if you want to use that argument to argue that racial discrimination is not the cause for the huge difference in stats for different racial and ethnic groups.

The charts also do not account for the potential to falsely reflect the applicant pool by failing to account for the number of schools any applicant applies to.

I do not even see how that would affect the data presented in the chart.

No but I do think that the differences in average test scores/gpas for those accepted to medical schools are pretty small. I also understand the urgent need to get physicians who are willing to work in underserved communities which on average are poor and not white. I’m also extremely aware of the trend of medical school graduates to pursue higher paying specialties rather than general practice specialties such as internal medicine, family practice, pediatrics and ob-gynecology which is facing the added pressures of poorly educated largely old white men determining what dies and what does not constitute good and appropriate care for women. Yet those lower paying areas of medicine have the higher need for more physicians.

I don’t know how many people you know who wanted to go to med school or who did go. There is a certain amount of competitiveness and/or machismo that is sometimes a driving factor in students choosing certain specialties. There can also be a lot of pressure from families to pursue the most difficult and most well paying fields. These are forces that don’t produce better doctors.

Medical schools do look for students who demonstrate interest in serving communities which are underserved or are less well compensated.

 

[Rhea]

Medical schools do look for students who demonstrate interest in serving communities which are underserved or are less well compensated.

This is a really big deal, and is not given enough air time.

Medical schools have goals, and they are not limited to graduating the most academically accomplished, specialty, high-paid, cardiac surgeons.


Some have specific programs for rural healthcare and healthcare for underserved communities. The mission of the program is to target some seats on the medical school for applicnts who can serve, who will serve and who can successfully serve in capacities and communities that specifically need medical practitioners. But the charts presented above don’t subtract out these numbers.


If Mr. 4.0/220 White Guy or Asian Guy answers his essay with an obvious lack of understanding of underserved communities, and an obvious lack of compelling backstory on whether they have any intention to serve those communities or capability of being comfortable in those comunities, they will lose out to someone who, perhaps with a lower GAP or MCAT, shows a willingness to serve there and compelling backstory showing they are capable of it.

So about those asians - are they, as a group, more likely than Black applicants to want to serve in poor communities as a General Practicioner? In general, are Asian parents pushing their smart kids to be GPs in bayous, poor urban neighborhoods, appalachia or Indian Reservations? No. They are not. And this will be evident on their essays.


It will look, on Derec’s charts, like Mr. 4.0/220 White Guy or Asian Guy was “unfairly descriminated against,” when in fact he was not qualified for the mission of the program.

Some people will ignore this truth, and continue to whine piteously about the plight of the White Guy or the Asian Guy who is unwilling to serve as a GP, when GPs are what is needed, but dammit! their Asian Guy has a high MCAT!! It must be unfair descrimination!

Medical schools don’t have to give a shit about high MCAT people who express disinterest in the mission of the program.

 

[Toni]

Medical schools do look for students who demonstrate interest in serving communities which are underserved or are less well compensated.

This is a really big deal, and is not given enough air time.

Medical schools have goals, and they are not limited to graduating the most academically accomplished, specialty, high-paid, cardiac surgeons.


Some have specific programs for rural healthcare and healthcare for underserved communities. The mission of the program is to target some seats on the medical school for applicnts who can serve, who will serve and who can successfully serve in capacities and communities that specifically need medical practitioners. But the charts presented above don’t subtract out these numbers.


If Mr. 4.0/220 White Guy or Asian Guy answers his essay with an obvious lack of understanding of underserved communities, and an obvious lack of compelling backstory on whether they have any intention to serve those communities or capability of being comfortable in those comunities, they will lose out to someone who, perhaps with a lower GAP or MCAT, shows a willingness to serve there and compelling backstory showing they are capable of it.

So about those asians - are they, as a group, more likely than Black applicants to want to serve in poor communities as a General Practicioner? In general, are Asian parents pushing their smart kids to be GPs in bayous, poor urban neighborhoods, appalachia or Indian Reservations? No. They are not. And this will be evident on their essays.


It will look, on Derec’s charts, like Mr. 4.0/220 White Guy or Asian Guy was “unfairly descriminated against,” when in fact he was not qualified for the mission of the program.

Some people will ignore this truth, and continue to whine piteously about the plight of the White Guy or the Asian Guy who is unwilling to serve as a GP, when GPs are what is needed, but dammit! their Asian Guy has a high MCAT!! It must be unfair descrimination!

Medical schools don’t have to give a shit about high MCAT people who express disinterest in the mission of the program.

Exactly. Just wanted to add that rural communities are very underserved. And it is getting worse as small hospitals are acquired by large health care systems and then jettison some much needed programs and services. These include prenatal care, labor and delivery.

There are a million little things that contribute to declining birth rate. Making it more onerous to carry a pregnancy and deliver within a 50-100 mile radius is just one of them.

 

[Derec]

No. You see someone ( white or Asian)not getting a spot in a particular medical school when some other person who is neither white nor Asian dies get a spot in medical school as racial discrimination.

No. I am saying that if whites and Asians need markedly higher grades and scores to get into any medical school that this is racial discrimination.

You fail to grasp that medical school admissions boards look at more than just GPAs and MCAT scores.

Of course. Nobody is claiming otherwise. But unless you think that these other attributes are found less often in white or Asian applicants, it still does not explain the discrepancy in average scores and grades of those being admitted. It is still racial discrimination.

This has been discussed and explained to you many times over the years. Understanding it is something you have to do for yourself.

It has been claimed many times over the years, and refuted just as many times. "Understanding is something you have to do for yourself" is something you should take to heart yourself.

 

[Derec]

No but I do think that the differences in average test scores/gpas for those accepted to medical schools are pretty small.

No, the differences are not small. They are large. I have shown why in the post you quoted.
Why do you, despite evidence to the contrary, persist in the falsehood that the differences are small?

I also understand the urgent need to get physicians who are willing to work in underserved communities which on average are poor and not white.

Many underserved communities, particularly rural ones, are predominately white.
But be that as it may, how does discriminating by race help with that? A black physician is not necessarily going to be any more likely to look for a job in an underserved area than a white or Asian one.

I’m also extremely aware of the trend of medical school graduates to pursue higher paying specialties rather than general practice specialties such as internal medicine, family practice, pediatrics and ob-gynecology

Surely true. But again, why do you think a black medical school graduate is less likely to apply for residencies in more prestigious and better paid specialties? A newly minted MD or DO cannot match into a residency if there are not enough spots - so the proper way to steer medical school graduates into these residencies is to increase the number of primary care residency spots. Not to discriminate by race.

which is facing the added pressures of poorly educated largely old white men determining what dies and what does not constitute good and appropriate care for women.

What "poorly educated old white men"? Seems like sexism and racism on your part to always bitch about how bad white men are.

Yet those lower paying areas of medicine have the higher need for more physicians.

Again, the issue is number of residency spots, not that there are too many white and Asian medical students, as if they are the only ones gravitating toward dermatology or plastic surgery.

I don’t know how many people you know who wanted to go to med school or who did go.

I know a few. The whole process is extremely competitive. But there is also a great deal of awareness that so-called "URM" or "underrepresented in medicine" ethnicities get a huge bonus over "ORM" or "overrepresented in medicine" ethnicities.

There is a certain amount of competitiveness and/or machismo that is sometimes a driving factor in students choosing certain specialties. There can also be a lot of pressure from families to pursue the most difficult and most well paying fields. These are forces that don’t produce better doctors.

And what does that have to do with the admissions giving a preference to URMs?

Medical schools do look for students who demonstrate interest in serving communities which are underserved or are less well compensated.

Yes, but demonstrating interest is often quite cynical and "check the box". Volunteer at the free clinic. Shadow a rural family med doc. Vax poetic about importance of rural primary care in your secondary essays. But then drop all that pretense, and join the neurosurgery interest group as soon as you arrive on campus.

 

[Derec]

Medical schools have goals, and they are not limited to graduating the most academically accomplished, specialty, high-paid, cardiac surgeons.

First of all, medical schools do not graduate "cardiac surgeons". Medical schools graduate MDs (or in case of osteopathic schools, DOs). They do not have a specialty yet. That is the job of residencies.

Some have specific programs for rural healthcare and healthcare for underserved communities. The mission of the program is to target some seats on the medical school for applicnts who can serve, who will serve and who can successfully serve in capacities and communities that specifically need medical practitioners. But the charts presented above don’t subtract out these numbers.

Applicants to med schools do not commit to any particular specialty, much less to a type of practice. The type of specialty you choose, or what setting (urban, suburban, rural, academic vs. community) you want to practice in is also not a function of race or ethnicity. Working knowledge of Spanish may be useful in many settings, but non-Hispanics may speak Spanish just as many 2nd gen or later Hispanics do not speak a word, and yet get to check the box that gives them URM privileges.

If Mr. 4.0/220 White Guy or Asian Guy answers his essay with an obvious lack of understanding of underserved communities, and an obvious lack of compelling backstory on whether they have any intention to serve those communities or capability of being comfortable in those comunities, they will lose out to someone who, perhaps with a lower GAP or MCAT, shows a willingness to serve there and compelling backstory showing they are capable of it.

In reality a white guy from Appalachia may be far more likely to serve in a rural community and a Chinese-American daughter of laundromat owners may be far more likely to work with underprivileged patients than a black son of a Coke exec from Atlanta. But guess who gets URM points from adcoms.

So about those asians - are they, as a group, more likely than Black applicants to want to serve in poor communities as a General Practicioner?

I do not think they are more likely, but also see no reason to think they would be less likely. And yet, black and Hispanic applicants are given significant preference.

It will look, on Derec’s charts, like Mr. 4.0/220 White Guy or Asian Guy was “unfairly descriminated against,” when in fact he was not qualified for the mission of the program.

Why do you keep repeating 220? Did you mean 520?
And why do you think white and Asian students are more likely to lack this subjective "mission fit"? It strikes me as similar to the "personality scores" given by Harvard where Asians were routinely given low "personality scores" in order to reduce the number of Asians getting accepted.

Some people will ignore this truth, and continue to whine piteously about the plight of the White Guy or the Asian Guy who is unwilling to serve as a GP, when GPs are what is needed, but dammit! their Asian Guy has a high MCAT!! It must be unfair descrimination!

The truth is that med schools do descriminate[sic] by race. And again, one does not commit to a particular specialty upon application. It is not until the 4th year that students apply for residencies.

Medical schools don’t have to give a shit about high MCAT people who express disinterest in the mission of the program.

Why do you assume that whites and Asians do that more frequently than blacks and Hispanics?

 

[Bronzeage]

OMG look at all of those unqualified white boys getting in ahead of Asians!

How do you figure? If you look at the numbers vs. population sizes, whites are significantly underrepresented despite having grades and scores much better than blacks and Hispanics.
Both Asians and whites are being discriminated against by med schools to the benefit of blacks and Hispanics with mediocre grades and scores.

Yeah, but white men are generally pretty dumb, even when they have the grades and scores to get into medical school.

 

[Derec]

Yeah, but white men are generally pretty dumb, even when they have the grades and scores to get into medical school.

Typical leftist racism and sexism.

 

[Derec]

Exactly. Just wanted to add that rural communities are very underserved.

No question they are. But how does discriminating by race in medical school admissions help alleviate that?