Moved Medical school admissions and race - was: VP pick

[Bronzeage]

Yeah, but white men are generally pretty dumb, even when they have the grades and scores to get into medical school.

Typical leftist racism and sexism.

No, not racist or sexist. This is all based on scientific observation and statistical analysis.

 

[Toni]

Exactly. Just wanted to add that rural communities are very underserved.

No question they are. But how does discriminating by race in medical school admissions help alleviate that?

It’s been explained to you more than once in this thread that it is not discrimination to use more criteria than GPA and MCAT scores to admit students and that the differences in scores are small and not predictive of who will make a good physician. Not every prospective medical student is willing to pursue the less high paying positions in general practice, pediatrics, internal medicine or ob/gyn care.

But no one can understand these things for you.

 

[Toni]

No. You see someone ( white or Asian)not getting a spot in a particular medical school when some other person who is neither white nor Asian dies get a spot in medical school as racial discrimination.

No. I am saying that if whites and Asians need markedly higher grades and scores to get into any medical school that this is racial discrimination.

You fail to grasp that medical school admissions boards look at more than just GPAs and MCAT scores.

Of course. Nobody is claiming otherwise. But unless you think that these other attributes are found less often in white or Asian applicants, it still does not explain the discrepancy in average scores and grades of those being admitted. It is still racial discrimination.

This has been discussed and explained to you many times over the years. Understanding it is something you have to do for yourself.

It has been claimed many times over the years, and refuted just as many times. "Understanding is something you have to do for yourself" is something you should take to heart yourself.

But white and Asian students do NOT need higher scores to get into any medical school.

 

[thebeave]

Yeah, but white men are generally pretty dumb, even when they have the grades and scores to get into medical school.

Typical leftist racism and sexism.

No, not racist or sexist. This is all based on scientific observation and statistical analysis.

Citations?

In the meantime, maybe you ought to watch this:

 

[BH]

Yeah, but white men are generally pretty dumb, even when they have the grades and scores to get into medical school.

Typical leftist racism and sexism.

No, not racist or sexist. This is all based on scientific observation and statistical analysis.

Bronzeage, I'm white and got good scores in public school and later university. But I'm not dumb. It's just that wisdom has been chasing me for many years and I have always managed to outrun it. Not getting caught by wisdom is smarts in and of itself.

 

[laughing dog]

Medical schools have goals, and they are not limited to graduating the most academically accomplished, specialty, high-paid, cardiac surgeons.

First of all, medical schools do not graduate "cardiac surgeons". Medical schools graduate MDs (or in case of osteopathic schools, DOs). They do not have a specialty yet. That is the job of residencies.

Medical students typically choose their specialty (s) in their 3rd year of a 4 year degree before moving onto residencies.

 

[BH]

I have two stories.

I worked with a Hispanic woman once who was going to become a nurse. Her university, she says, offered her a deal where if she took a Bachelors degree from them and took a couple of grad courses while working on the Bachelors they would award her a Masters in place of the Bachelors. She figured it was because she was Hispanic and the school wanted to put a notch in the Hispanic got a masters notch. She turned them down figuring they were doing her no real favors in the long run.

I know a professor at the local college who teaches in the nursing program. One of her students, a black woman, forged signatures from an actual nurse saying the student did this or that during some sort of study at the hospital for the program. The teacher when told about this by the nurse when things didn't add up flunked the kid and was going to try to get her expelled. The president of the college showed up defending the student and saying oh no you won't. The nurse then told the college pres that what the student did was a felony and if he didn't discipline her somehow she was reporting everything to the authorities. The prez expelled her for one semester and the teacher left for another college. The prez retired and no one misses him.

I know there is a lot of racism left in society and it very well could cost minorities good well paying jobs and the training they need to get those jobs. There is good in things like affirmative action. But sometimes you can go so far worrying about not discrimination you hurt the people you try to benefit and society at large.

What kind of nurse would that black girl had been going around forging names on documents.? She may have learned her lesson sure. But if she didn't she may do it again and get herself and others in huge trouble. She would have been better off doing something else.

As for the Hispanic girl hiring managers are not dumb. If she had a masters but not a Bachelors they would have seen through what happened and she was smart enough to forsee this. They may have still hired her but behind the scenes it would be understood she did not really get masters level work and not rise as high as she may have otherwise.

Race problems have no solution until the solution is that race doesn't matter.

 

[Rhea]

What kind of nurse would that black girl had been going around forging names on documents.? She may have learned her lesson sure. But if she didn't she may do it again and get herself and others in huge trouble. She would have been better off doing something else.

As for the Hispanic girl hiring managers are not dumb. If she had a masters but not a Bachelors they would have seen through what happened and she was smart enough to forsee this. They may have still hired her but behind the scenes it would be understood she did not really get masters level work and not rise as high as she may have otherwise.

First - may I remind you that they are not “girls”. They are women. They are adult, post-pubescent humans. It’s time to stop infantilizing women by calling them children.

The Prez who was willing to overlook the forgery is part of the problem. He sounds like someone thinking, “I’ve got tpo keep this black student who forges, because all the black students are compromised, so you have to take that in order to meet quotas.” Which is bullshit, but common among people who don’t support diversity. There are great Black students, and honest ones, and he should look for them, they are not hard to find. He’s the problem for ever saying a forger should not be expelled. Question why he did that. That’s not the system. He’s the one in power doing bad behavior.

The offer of a Masters instead of a bachelors is suspecrt. Hundreds of schools, including the one I went to, offer 3/5 or 4/5 Bachelor’s/Master’s programs. You do exacrtly as described above; take a Bachelors degree from them and took a couple of grad courses while working on the Bachelors - but they would award her a Masters as well as of the Bachelors. TRhis is incredibly common and not at all nefarious.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Exactly. Just wanted to add that rural communities are very underserved.

No question they are. But how does discriminating by race in medical school admissions help alleviate that?

It’s been explained to you more than once in this thread that it is not discrimination to use more criteria than GPA and MCAT scores to admit students and that the differences in scores are small and not predictive of who will make a good physician. Not every prospective medical student is willing to pursue the less high paying positions in general practice, pediatrics, internal medicine or ob/gyn care.

But no one can understand these things for you.

The problem is that the other factors being used are things that can't really be measured and there's no reason think there would be huge differences between races. It looks extremely suspect.

 

[Rhea]

Medical schools have goals, and they are not limited to graduating the most academically accomplished, specialty, high-paid, cardiac surgeons.

First of all, medical schools do not graduate "cardiac surgeons". Medical schools graduate MDs (or in case of osteopathic schools, DOs). They do not have a specialty yet. That is the job of residencies.

You seem to lack some knowledge about medical schools and their applications. I’m kind of immersed in this right now as one of my children (White/Appalachian (by some definitions)) is currently applying to medical schools. So we are examining actual entrance requirements for actual real world medical schools in great detail. Including how to write essays that will help you.

Medical schools *DO* have programs in the first four years of medical school that target and focus on things like primary care. It is explicit in the application process. There are seats in the medical school essentially reserved for people who will enter GP - and classes to target them. There are other programs that are targeted for rural medicine, underserved medicine. You will get an MD, same as all the other graduates, so you could try to fake it to get into one of these programs that cares much less about MCAT and GPA. They try to screen these out through experience and essay.

Some have specific programs for rural healthcare and healthcare for underserved communities. The mission of the program is to target some seats on the medical school for applicnts who can serve, who will serve and who can successfully serve in capacities and communities that specifically need medical practitioners. But the charts presented above don’t subtract out these numbers.

Applicants to med schools do not commit to any particular specialty, much less to a type of practice.

You are mis-informed or using out of date information. See above.

The type of specialty you choose, or what setting (urban, suburban, rural, academic vs. community) you want to practice in is also not a function of race or ethnicity.

Many of these programs look for people who match the communities they are trying to serve, Some explicitly say that if you must be a member of the community or have family ties to the area. So they do not call out race, but the accepted applicants will likely have a different racial make-up than the general applicant pool. Both of the white people and that one Asian guy who live in rural mississippi will have a chance, of course.

Working knowledge of Spanish may be useful in many settings, but non-Hispanics may speak Spanish just as many 2nd gen or later Hispanics do not speak a word, and yet get to check the box that gives them URM privileges.

If Mr. 4.0/220 White Guy or Asian Guy answers his essay with an obvious lack of understanding of underserved communities, and an obvious lack of compelling backstory on whether they have any intention to serve those communities or capability of being comfortable in those comunities, they will lose out to someone who, perhaps with a lower GAP or MCAT, shows a willingness to serve there and compelling backstory showing they are capable of it.

In reality a white guy from Appalachia may be far more likely to serve in a rural community and a Chinese-American daughter of laundromat owners may be far more likely to work with underprivileged patients than a black son of a Coke exec from Atlanta. But guess who gets URM points from adcoms.

Here you are again conflating “URM points” with people who are admitted. The percentage of hispanic people admitted will be high, because they are more likely to know spanish. The White Appalachian who speaks spanish (such as my child - also speaks Japanese and ASL) may also get in, but she won’t be in a crowd of hundreds of Appalachian white applicants who can speak spanish, relative to the much larger number of spanish-speaking hispanic applicants.

So about those asians - are they, as a group, more likely than Black applicants to want to serve in poor communities as a General Practicioner?

I do not think they are more likely, but also see no reason to think they would be less likely. And yet, black and Hispanic applicants are given significant preference.

Here’s a reason they are less likely, based on my knowledge of my Asian friends and their families: those families value education and status at a much different degree than White or Black families do. They will push their children into the most prestigious position they can. Some of my friends lament this as a real stressor in their upbringing. One friend lamented how dissappointed his parents were that he was not a cardiac surgeon but “only a thoracic surgeon”. For real.

This is - of course - not universal of all Americans with Asian ancestry. But it is far more likely than white families, such that an Asian medical school applicant may indeed be less likely to accept long term emplyment as a GP in an underserved neighborhood.

It will look, on Derec’s charts, like Mr. 4.0/220 White Guy or Asian Guy was “unfairly descriminated against,” when in fact he was not qualified for the mission of the program.

Why do you keep repeating 220? Did you mean 520?

Yes, I meant 520. Sorry.
Pauses to laugh really hard and mutter, “220, 221, whatever it takes”.

And why do you think white and Asian students are more likely to lack this subjective "mission fit"?

Already told you.
Asian ancestry people are a lower percent of the rural population than they are of the suburban population.
White people are less likely to have experience in diverse neighborhoods than diverse people are.

So when a medical school is selecting for people who will stick it out in those working environments for the long term, and not leave the nano-second that their residency is done, they will pick people who can demonstrate reasons that they are more likely to put down roots and stay.

Indeed there is certainly data about what type of people put down roots and stay in those areas. And they are not, typically, people with suburban backgrounds - who are overwhelmingly White and Asian.

It strikes me as similar to the "personality scores" given by Harvard where Asians were routinely given low "personality scores" in order to reduce the number of Asians getting accepted.

You assume it was done “in order to reduce the number of Asians getting accepted,” but the intent behind the measure is speculation on your part. Equally likely is to react to other goals such as who tends to make it through residency with favorable job reviews from their advisors. And if that does not include certain socio-economic backgrounds, that may have significantly different representations in diversity, then the “diversity” numbers will look different.

Some people will ignore this truth, and continue to whine piteously about the plight of the White Guy or the Asian Guy who is unwilling to serve as a GP, when GPs are what is needed, but dammit! their Asian Guy has a high MCAT!! It must be unfair descrimination!

The truth is that med schools do descriminate[sic] by race.

You have no reason to think you know this in order to do things racially. Maybe in some cases it is. Maybe in some cases they think, “shit, we have been discriminating against these groups for, like, ever. We have to show that we have changed, or the diverse applicants will never consider us. We have to be the change we want to see.”

And then they acknowledge that they will have to listen to whiners who can’t abide that they want to change fast. Wanh! No! It should be a slow curve! Only natural changes to fix artificial problems!!

By the way, you don’t need to write [sic] to make a big point-out of a typo or even a mispelling from lack of knowledge. It does say something about you that you feel you need to point it out, and publicly, for the purpose of…. Something. So yes, your message is heard, you’re the type of person who likes to shame people publicly for mistakes. Got it. Message heard. Was heard, years ago. But you be you, mkay?

And again, one does not commit to a particular specialty upon application.

You are wrong, see above.

It is not until the 4th year that students apply for residencies.

You are wrong, see above.

Also, in another post you proposed that medical schools should change the residencies if they want more GPs, but this will obviously not solve the problem as people are not required to stay in the area of their residency after completion, and so the underserved areas will continue to have to replace their healthcare force regularly and at great cost, unless they can select in medical school for applicants who have a passion and a reason to commit to serving these areas.

Medical schools don’t have to give a shit about high MCAT people who express disinterest in the mission of the program.

Why do you assume that whites and Asians do that more frequently than blacks and Hispanics?

Explained above.

I make these comments and add this background for others, though,

because I expect from you, Derec, that you will not internalize or understand what is written here and we will see the same whiney complaint about how change is enacted - using the exact same uninformed complaints as if you had never read any of this - the next time you decide to launch into a rant about medical school admissions when you are in a discussion about the VP candidate choices. And you will once again claim that medical schools don’t target specialties upon application and that there’s no reason white or Asian applicants will eschew underserved care at a different rate, as if you had never read an explanation of why that is demonstrably so.

 

[Rhea]

It’s been explained to you more than once in this thread that it is not discrimination to use more criteria than GPA and MCAT scores to admit students and that the differences in scores are small and not predictive of who will make a good physician. Not every prospective medical student is willing to pursue the less high paying positions in general practice, pediatrics, internal medicine or ob/gyn care.

But no one can understand these things for you.

The problem is that the other factors being used are things that can't really be measured and there's no reason think there would be huge differences between races. It looks extremely suspect.

The otther factors are easily measured. Look at the doctors in underserved communities who stay and put down roots and serve these places long term. Get more people like them. They aren’t high MCAT, high GPA, Type-A ambitious academic wonders, perhaps.

The goal is getting health care to more people, not giving degrees to people who won’t work there.

 

[Bronzeage]

Yeah, but white men are generally pretty dumb, even when they have the grades and scores to get into medical school.

Typical leftist racism and sexism.

No, not racist or sexist. This is all based on scientific observation and statistical analysis.

Bronzeage, I'm white and got good scores in public school and later university. But I'm not dumb. It's just that wisdom has been chasing me for many years and I have always managed to outrun it. Not getting caught by wisdom is smarts in and of itself.

I'm also white, but specifically a red neck. I got good grades in school and college, for what that's worth. All of my working life, I've been among other white men who were dumb, but had the advantages of being a white man, which meant the competition for jobs and pay was less severe. The reason I brand them as dumb is because they thought they did it all on their own merit.