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Mega-Donors and Elections

You really believe that the Democrats are unaffected by all the big money they get?
NO. I believe Democrats would support those things because they would force fairer elections per "the will of the people". Citizens United and privately financed elections, support tyranny by a minority (aka rich Republicans). But if you want any of that rich Republican money to run your campaign, you better not support getting rid of C U or you'll never be heard from again in those circles. And it can't pass without lots of Republicans.
I really admire your faith in politicians. Misplaced, but admirable.
I would never stand between a pollie and a pot of money.
 
My favorite thing with politics are people. They want politicians to make all of the problems they care about to disappear... on a shoestring.
 
That's the "democracy" you deserve.
This is a mentality I always felt was weird. How is any change supposed to happen at all if the current state is "what we deserve"?
You voted for this, hence you deserve what comes out as a result.
Actually no, we didn't. Citizens United was a Supreme Court decision that stupidly claimed corporations are people with the same free speech and donation rights as people.
 
You really believe that the Democrats are unaffected by all the big money they get?
NO. I believe Democrats would support those things because they would force fairer elections per "the will of the people". Citizens United and privately financed elections, support tyranny by a minority (aka rich Republicans). But if you want any of that rich Republican money to run your campaign, you better not support getting rid of C U or you'll never be heard from again in those circles. And it can't pass without lots of Republicans.
I really admire your faith in politicians. Misplaced, but admirable.
I would never stand between a pollie and a pot of money.
You don’t think Repugs would refuse to get rid of Citizens United?
Or is it that you don’t believe Dems would support such an effort?
Perhaps you’re just not aware of how it came to pass. Read up Tigers! - it was a Republican invention, pushed by the same corrupt justices who are gutting our democracy today.
If you think Dem politicos support it, you are woefully misinformed.
 
Repubs would have no interest at all in that solution, and would call it an attack on free speech (because dollars equal speech, so if you have no spare cash, we can't hear you.) We would need a strong Democrat imprint on at least legislative and executive to pull that off, and then there'd be the Roberts Court to steer around. Nice to theorize about, though.
You really believe that the Democrats are unaffected by all the big money they get? And that they are truly interested in any reforms that would stop those rivers of money?
The Democrats aren't looking for untold riches to run. They were beholden to corporate interests before CItizen's United. It is that post CItizen's, the numbers are getting quite out there. A billion for a candidate, a billion for the Super PACs. It is outrageous.

That said, Democrat appointed justices were less likely to consider spending as speech (yes, that isn't it exactly, but it is good enough minus the VAR). Honestly, spending on the elections isn't the primary issue, it is the damned length of the elections that is. Shortening the election cycle would reduce the potential for spending. But the SCOTUS would probably just rule that unconstitutional, rendering us legally "fucked".
 
You really believe that the Democrats are unaffected by all the big money they get?
NO. I believe Democrats would support those things because they would force fairer elections per "the will of the people". Citizens United and privately financed elections, support tyranny by a minority (aka rich Republicans). But if you want any of that rich Republican money to run your campaign, you better not support getting rid of C U or you'll never be heard from again in those circles. And it can't pass without lots of Republicans.
I really admire your faith in politicians. Misplaced, but admirable.
I would never stand between a pollie and a pot of money.
You don’t think Repugs would refuse to get rid of Citizens United?
I do not believe they would willingly get rid of it.
Or is it that you don’t believe Dems would support such an effort?
Parties will always want more money to fund campaigns. That requires donors. Of course these donors will never, never require a quid pro quo for their donations. They are only interested in what is good for the electorate/country.
As mentioned earlier by JH big money was a problem before Citizens United. No political party will willingly give up pots/rivers of money, not withstanding their protestations to the contrary.
"Never stand between a state premier and a pot of money" - Aust. PM Paul Keating (Our state premiers are analogous to your state governors)

Perhaps you’re just not aware of how it came to pass. Read up Tigers! - it was a Republican invention, pushed by the same corrupt justices who are gutting our democracy today.
If you think Dem politicos support it, you are woefully misinformed.
If the Democrats wish to appear virtuous they could refuse all such donations. Make a principled stand. But you, like me, will not hold your breath to see it happen. And do not give me the nonsense that "we can't do it because the other mob won't".

Individual pollies are more likely to practice what they preach regarding funding of elections. Parties not so.
 
Parties will always want more money to fund campaigns. That requires donors.
Thank you for reminding us why publicly funded elections would be more fair.
If the Democrats wish to appear virtuous they could refuse all such donations.
Why would ceding the Country to fascists “appear virtuous”? And who thinks appearing virtuous for one self sacrificial moment is worth letting the right wing fucktards take permanent autocratic control of the Country?
And do not give me the nonsense that "we can't do it because the other mob won't".
That’s bullshit. See above. We can let the fascists buy our Country at a huge discount if we would just stop taking donations and simply pout about how unfair it is.
Individual pollies are more likely to practice what they preach regarding funding of elections.
Yeah. There are thousands of them. But for some reason, YOU NEVER HEARD OF THEM.
Figure it out, dude.
I believe you are fundamentally unable to accept the FACT that Republicans cannot win free and fair elections, they know it and therefore oppose free and fair elections. Democrats know they will win if elections are free and fair so they support free and fair elections.
It’s not fucking rocket science.
 
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Parties will always want more money to fund campaigns. That requires donors.
Thank you for reminding us why publicly funded elections would be more fair.
It's probably worth giving it a try.
If the Democrats wish to appear virtuous they could refuse all such donations.
Why would ceding the Country to fascists “appear virtuous”? And who thinks appearing virtuous for one self sacrificial moment is worth letting the right wing fucktards take permanent autocratic control of the Country?
So you do not accept 'practice what you preach'? Wonder why pollies are held in such low regard these days?
Next you will be telling us how (assuming the Democrats win in 2024) that they will repeal Citizens United, improve disclosure laws, cap donations etc. I eagerly await those events if Harris becomes president.
If a party is prepared to use method X, despite the their alleged distaste for it, to win an election, they will not repeal it afterwards. Why remove the steps that helped you climb the greasy pole to the top?
And do not give me the nonsense that "we can't do it because the other mob won't".
That’s bullshit. See above. We can let the fascists buy our Country at a huge discount if we would just stop taking donations and simply pout about how unfair it is.
Individual pollies are more likely to practice what they preach regarding funding of elections.
Yeah. There are thousands of them. But for some reason, YOU NEVER HEARD OF THEM.
Figure it out, dude.
I believe you are fundamentally unable to accept the FACT that Republicans cannot win free and fair elections, they know it and therefore oppose free and fair elections. Democrats know they will win if elections are free and fair so they support free and fair elections.
It’s not fucking rocket science.
I do not have a vote come November but I suspect your pollies are no different to the Aust. pollies. Say all the right words but will not call you back in the morning. Caveat emptor
 
I do not have a vote come November but I suspect your pollies are no different to the Aust. pollies. Say all the right words but will not call you back in the morning. Caveat emptor
What do you think I am unwarily “buying”?
Republicans’ ruthless pursuit of minority rule? I should reject that obvious fact for what reason? Seems to me you’re the naive one here.
Or do should I blindly accept that Democrats want money to be given to them more than they want to win and therefore prefer elections that are NOT free and fair, just like Republicans do?
No, dude. Dems want to win just as much as Repugs do. Free and fair elections would do the trick for them. Republicans are the obstacle to free and fair elections, period.
You must be totally unaware of what drives American politics.
 
That's the "democracy" you deserve.
This is a mentality I always felt was weird. How is any change supposed to happen at all if the current state is "what we deserve"?
You voted for this, hence you deserve what comes out as a result.
Actually no, we didn't. Citizens United was a Supreme Court decision that stupidly claimed corporations are people with the same free speech and donation rights as people.
Supreme Court Dictatorship of America or SCDA
 
There is a very common fallacy sometimes called the Free Parking Fallacy. I call it the Designated Hitter (DH) Fallacy. Before the Aussies here complain they can't possibly understand anything about baseball, all you need to know for our purpose here is in the next paragraph.

Some baseball leagues vote whether to adopt a "DH" rule. Suppose some team owners or managers dislike the rule and vote against it. But they're in a minority and the DH rule is adopted. A team is allowed to ignore the DH rule and operate without it, but they will be at a disadvantage when playing against teams which exploit the DH rule.

Is it hypocritical for a team that opposed the DH rule to exploit it once adopted? No. Is it improper or immoral for a team that opposed the DH rule to exploit it? No.

The DH Fallacy is frequently made in political discussions. For example, Warren Buffett pays taxes at a net 20% rate and is on record stating his opinion that it would be better public policy for high-income earners like himself to pay 35%. Right-wingers despise this sort of talk and call Mr. Buffett a hypocrite because he doesn't voluntarily donate that extra 15%. Should Buffett pay the higher rate he has proposed, despite that the actual tax tables don't call for it? No. Is he under some "moral obligation" to do so? No.

Repubs would have no interest at all in that solution, and would call it an attack on free speech (because dollars equal speech, so if you have no spare cash, we can't hear you.) We would need a strong Democrat imprint on at least legislative and executive to pull that off, and then there'd be the Roberts Court to steer around. Nice to theorize about, though.
You really believe that the Democrats are unaffected by all the big money they get? And that they are truly interested in any reforms that would stop those rivers of money?

Wrong again. With exceptions it is mostly Democrats who support campaign finance reform, and Republicans who oppose it. It wasn't so long ago that U.S. Presidential campaigns were government financed. Candidates who used non-government money for their campaign were denied the large government campaign subsidies. With the emergence of PACs, the restriction became harder to enforce; and with the Citizens United v. Federal Election Commission decision issued by a Court packed by Republicans, the government financing became obsolescent.
[In 2000] Republican George W. Bush became the first major party candidate to opt out of the public financing system during the primaries.

Many politicians are motivated by the opportunity for public service and are unhappy with the time and effort that they must spend on fund-raising in the American system.

If the Democrats wish to appear virtuous they could refuse all such donations. Make a principled stand. But you, like me, will not hold your breath to see it happen. And do not give me the nonsense that "we can't do it because the other mob won't".

Oh my. Go back and re-read the comments about the Designated Hitter Fallacy. Can you get the correct answers without clicking on the spoilers?
 
it is mostly Democrats who support campaign finance reform, and Republicans who oppose it.
Just my opinion, as yet not contradicted by Tigers!:

Tigers will not, cannot and must not concede the basic facts that American Republicans do not want free and fair elections, and American Democrats DO want free and fair elections.

Those are obvious facts to everyone in America, except the 30% who think Donald Trump is Jesus (because their Jesus says nuh-uh).
But in Au? I don’t think Tigers! Can even begin to understand -let alone internalize - the fact of our Republican Party’s malevolence and desire for totalitarianism.
So he keeps saying “why don’t you try this (thing that Republicans will not allow)?” When it is pointed out that Republicans won’t allow it, he simply reverts to “then Democrats should just do it alone, and if they don’t, they’re hypocrites, same as both sides”.
 
Parties will always want more money to fund campaigns. That requires donors.
Or PUBLICLY FUNDED ELECTIONS.
You keep forgetting that part. WHY?
But that means nothing if the Super PACs exist.
Obviously CU would have to go. Otherwise there is no possibility of publicly funded elections.
And obviously Republicans will never let that happen because THEY DON’T WANT FAIR ELECTIONS. .
 
Just my opinion, as yet not contradicted by Tigers!:

Tigers will not, cannot and must not concede the basic facts that American Republicans do not want free and fair elections, and American Democrats DO want free and fair elections.
Tell that to Bernie Sanders.

Those are obvious facts to everyone in America, except the 30% who think Donald Trump is Jesus (because their Jesus says nuh-uh).
It is not obvious to me. Why are you claiming I think Donald Trump is Jesus? The man's an opportunistic narcissist. Why do you make ad hominem arguments?






 
Gee, B20, did I somewhere assert that Dems do not play by Republicans’ enforced rules? Did you just return from an epic spending spree at Strawmen R-US? Or maybe you just graduated from The Tigers! School of American Political Advice?

Democrats DESPERATELY want free and fair elections for the same reason Republicans oppose them:
Republicans can’t win fair elections.
The fact that the corrupt SCOTUS’ tilted playing field is the only one we have, does not alter that fact.
 
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