Men's Rights Movement(s)

[Jolly_Penguin]

Now, I don't know about the quality of the reporting or the film, but even if, as some critics have said, it doesn't sufficiently explore the 'dark side' of MRAs and is therefore overly sympathetic, I don't think, on the face of it, that would, at this point, vindicate an idea that all MRAs are unreasonable, misogynist arseholes.

But so what if there is a bad and toxic group of people calling themselves MRA? It isn't like there isn't a bad and toxic group of people calling themselves Feminists. And we shouldn't throw out the entire movement and call it toxic just because of these people. That's the whole impetus of the Two Types of Feminism thread... to not dismiss all Feminists as toxic and to salvage good Feminism. Well... same goes for MRA folks. Not every guy who has been wronged due to his gender is a misogynist asshole, as much as you may want to see them all that way. That's sexism my friends.

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I respectfully submit that it does not matter what an MRA says. They will be dismissed by both media and society at large as either misogynists or as unmanly and mocked.

Well, its the baggage you see. After a while, no one fucking cares what they have to say. Some person wrote a story about it. It was about a boy... was eaten by a wolf. Yeah, he was right that one time about the wolf. But no one gave a fuck. Sure, all cries for help matter, but the importance of said cries die off after such a long time of bullshitting.

You don't think toxic Feminism has created a whole lot of baggage? Its driven women to stop calling themselves feminists and into the egalitarian movement. And so what if 1000 men even make stuff up (boy who cried wolf as you say). The 1001st guy isn't those guys. Its sexist to dismiss him because he also happens to be male.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Every once in a while, I'll hear someone say, "I'm a woman and I'm against women's rights--I'm for human rights." The idea being that men and women should, if treated equally, should all have the same rights.

Could not the same be said about men's rights?

Agreed, although for the most part the men's rights movement is a backlash to the excesses of the women's rights movement.

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

Giving the critic's podcast a listen now. The first thing I noticed was him saying he doesn't know anything about the Red Pill at the outset as he will go on to explore it, but he's going to debunk it and calls it a propaganda piece.

He then goes on to talk about a Redit forum that is obviously misogynist, and he says that's much the same what the other MRAs (like Elam) say... which if you watch the movie it isn't presented there like that whatsoever.

Next he attacks Cassie Jae herself and makes that false claim that the film was funded all by MRAs. When he makes a false claim like that I can't trust what else he is going to claim as facts. But I will listen to his arguments that don't rely on him claiming facts not already known to me.

Next he goes on about discrimination against women (which has nothing to do with MRA). Still waiting for him to address issues men face and its 25 minutes in. Does he think that MRA means debunking Feminism? It doesn't. You can be both a Feminist and an MRA. You can be an egalitarian and care about everybody.

Next he talks about how some MRA claims are RIGHT, but its not the fault of feminism. Paul Elam would agree with that statement, and does in the film...

Next he talks about workplace deaths equating them to "accidental drowning" and not being as important as the gender wage gap (which he doesn't prove)... again not actually dealing with the issue but equating MRA with anti-feminism. Some MRAs are anti-feminist, but that isn't the meaning of MRA. MRA is Men's Rights Activism.

He finally makes his first good point when he talks about suicide rates. Men commit suicide successfully more often, but women attempt it more often (according to him - and as above I can't take him at his word about it and haven't seen the data independently). But then he goes back to the "what do you want?" and "Its all women haters that's all it is" and "Its not Feminism's fault". No dude, you can care about men without hating women.

Finally around the 40 minute mark he talks about the higher number women in universities today, and responds as if that's a claim about schools purposefully blocking out men. I've never heard an MRA make that claim. Then he goes back to the gender wage gap, citing that on average even though they have more degrees they wind up making less than men. He doesn't explore the various ideas of why that may be, and again he' makes it about women and not men.

Finally he talks about there being more homeless men than women. His response is that at least they are homeless without kids and that since men make more money than women on average, therefore he's less concerned about men being homeless (group error and identity politics). And of course he again does the "its not feminists fault and Feminists don't want that" thing. Dude, again, it doesn't have to be for us to give a fuck.

And of course then he goes into "Black people are more homeless than white people" as if thats a gotcha because all MRAs must be racists or something. And then he just outright says it "These MRAs are Trump supporters". Really? You have to support trump to care about men's issues? He also keeps going off on political rants in favour of Democrats and against Republicans. Why can't one be a Democrat MRA? He's ending his rant with how these MRAs are against universal health care. What?

I gave up after listening to part 1 of his series on this and won't bother with part 2.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Well, its the baggage you see. After a while, no one fucking cares what they have to say. Some person wrote a story about it. It was about a boy... was eaten by a wolf. Yeah, he was right that one time about the wolf. But no one gave a fuck. Sure, all cries for help matter, but the importance of said cries die off after such a long time of bullshitting.

You don't think toxic Feminism has created a whole lot of baggage? Its driven women to stop calling themselves feminists and into the egalitarian movement. And so what if 1000 men even make stuff up (boy who cried wolf as you say). The 1001st guy isn't those guys. Its sexist to dismiss him because he also happens to be male.

It isn't sexist to suffer "Poor ole white male" Fatigue.

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Every once in a while, I'll hear someone say, "I'm a woman and I'm against women's rights--I'm for human rights." The idea being that men and women should, if treated equally, should all have the same rights.

Could not the same be said about men's rights?

Agreed, although for the most part the men's rights movement is a backlash to the excesses of the women's rights movement.

Yes... all the excess. Ever since women forced men to carry a fetus to term, it has gone downhill with all of the excess accommodations women get. Such as... or...

 

[Toni]

He finally makes his first good point when he talks about suicide rates. Men commit suicide successfully more often, but women attempt it more often (according to him - and as above I can't take him at his word about it and haven't seen the data independently).

Here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_differences_in_suicide

It is believed that men are more likely to complete suicide attempts than are women because men are more likely to use more lethal means (i.e. guns).


I'm not sure how well the conclusions about male homelessness vs female homelessness holds up today. At least for a time, there was a dramatic increase in the number of families and women with children being homeless, largely due to the housing crisis.

Here's this snapshot:

https://projecthome.org/about/facts-homelessness

 

[repoman]

If you could "uplift" chimpanzees, baboons and gorillas and make them have the same amount of gray matter as humans (with their current social structures to start) what would a male rights and female rights movements look like?

What about a beta and omega male rights movement? The level of shit that many males and females of these primates deal with can be very brutal even if distinct by gender.

 

[ruby sparks]

But so what if there is a bad and toxic group of people calling themselves MRA? It isn't like there isn't a bad and toxic group of people calling themselves Feminists. And we shouldn't throw out the entire movement and call it toxic just because of these people. That's the whole impetus of the Two Types of Feminism thread... to not dismiss all Feminists as toxic and to salvage good Feminism. Well... same goes for MRA folks. Not every guy who has been wronged due to his gender is a misogynist asshole, as much as you may want to see them all that way. That's sexism my friends.

The only relevant difference might be....if (for example) the majority of MRAs were towards the 'toxic' end of the spectrum and only a minority of feminists were. I confess that that is my general impression, though I admit to a lack of detailed knowledge.

That said, that is (sorry would be, if correct) only a matter of degree, and I would agree that we should not throw out the entire movement, with the caveat that if it were mostly toxic......well, maybe there would come a point......but hey, it wouldn't be up to me to say. All I will say is that while I have reservations about feminism I'd have more about MRA. If someone called me a feminist I'd say, no I'm not actually, and if someone called me an MRA I'd be like, no way man, fuck off with that.

I am totally prepared to be wrong and happy to say that I reckon there must be many reasonable MRAs (or similar groups) even if they are not in the majority.

I'm struggling to go further than that.

It would be a pity, imo, if men's rights and issues were not properly addressed or appreciated because of either men's rights groups being mostly toxic or being perceived as such, so my main interest (in this thread I mean) would be in advocating for men's rights to be addressed, separately from this or that or any particular group.

There should be good, admirable, reasonable, merit-warranting groups for men's rights and issues, is what I'm saying, in essence. I'm not sure if MRAs are that.




ETA: By 'toxic' I don't mean that they're 'bad people', whether the label is applied to either 'side'.

 

[ruby sparks]

Agreed, although for the most part the men's rights movement is a backlash to the excesses of the women's rights movement.

My guess is that there might be some truth in that, and therein may lie a major flaw, because if you are a backlash movement against another movement then maybe you may spend too much time backlashing, and too many gripers and anti-feminist complainers will want to join your movement and it will come to define you (even if it's not in the dictionary definition). I wonder if this partly answer's braces_for_impact's question a while back about MRA groups seeming to attract the 'wrong' sort.

A better movement imo would just leave criticising or competing with feminism out of the equation, by and large, or as little as possible, and just get on with addressing men's issues in a positive way.

Also, my guess would be that at least some of the time, 'perceived excesses' would be a better way of putting it. That said I do think it is true that feminism has always had an excessive subset, so some of the backlash would be merited, imo.

Shit, it's really hard to find a solid, non-contradictory position on any of this gender stuff. It's so complicated!

 

[Jason Harvestdancer]

There is a movie made by a feminist where she actually went out to meet with MRAs and find out what they are all about.

 The Red Pill

Sadly the Red Pill isn't a free movie, and Feminists wouldn't watch it even if it was.

True, but on Cassie Jaye's YouTube channel you can watch "The Raw Files" in which she posts raw unedited clips and also posts her commentary about having made this movie.

 

[ruby sparks]

So I googled a bit and I found this:

The Good Men Project
https://goodmenproject.com/category/ethics-values/

I don't know much about it and have only skimmed through it, but it looks quite good. Against sexism. Against racism. Embracing homosexuality. etc etc

There are pages like this....which many typical feminists might be quite glad to see....

The Question Facing the American White Male Today: You were born into power. What are you going to do with it?

"But whatever other messages you received, they were largely based on this one—that the American White Male is born with greater inherent worth than a large portion of the world’s human population."

https://goodmenproject.com/ethics-values/question-facing-american-white-male-today-dg/


and pages like this:

Focusing on Fathering: My Journey Through the Men’s Movement
https://goodmenproject.com/featured...hering-my-journey-through-mens-movement-chwm/

on which Warren Farrell is praised, and stuff like:

"After I joined a men’s group in 1979, we attended a number of poetry readings with Robert Bly and I was his roommate at a men’s gatherings that featured him. This became known as the mythopoetic men’s movement. Robert was the first one to introduce me to the power of poetry for men."

Which sounds good.



I didn't spot any anti-feminism on my way through.

 

[Toni]

So I googled a bit and I found this:

The Good Men Project
https://goodmenproject.com/category/ethics-values/

I don't know much about it and have only skimmed through it, but it looks quite good. Against sexism. Against racism. Embracing homosexuality. etc etc

There are pages like this....which many typical feminists might be quite glad to see....

The Question Facing the American White Male Today: You were born into power. What are you going to do with it?

"But whatever other messages you received, they were largely based on this one—that the American White Male is born with greater inherent worth than a large portion of the world’s human population."

https://goodmenproject.com/ethics-values/question-facing-american-white-male-today-dg/


and pages like this:

Focusing on Fathering: My Journey Through the Men’s Movement
https://goodmenproject.com/featured...hering-my-journey-through-mens-movement-chwm/

on which Warren Farrell is praised, and stuff like:

"After I joined a men’s group in 1979, we attended a number of poetry readings with Robert Bly and I was his roommate at a men’s gatherings that featured him. This became known as the mythopoetic men’s movement. Robert was the first one to introduce me to the power of poetry for men."

Which sounds good.



I didn't spot any anti-feminism on my way through.

Robert was the first one to introduce me to the power of poetry for men."

In other words: poetry. Seriously.

 

[ruby sparks]

I have no problem whatsoever with it as a concept and can't think of a good reason why anyone would have. In fact, I think it's a very good idea.

Try these two:

https://img-s3.onedio.com/id-57e8a0...33ae3aed08ae03c03c2f8377c98eabfcb9e20379.webp

https://img-s3.onedio.com/id-57e8a1...e33ca675c4d636bbb3b70147d10a59b0db2b84f5.webp

 

[ruby sparks]

Interestingly, this one, edited by the poet mentioned on the 'Good Men' site, includes poems by Emily Dickinson and Marianne Moore (and a few other women poets I am not familiar with):









.....and here's a good one, specifically for fathers of girls:

 

[Toni]

Sigh.

You really missed my point that poetry has historically been written by men, mostly written about men, published by men, reviewed by men, evaluated by men.

Try googling top 100 poets of the last 200 years and see how many female names you get.

I mean, great if Robert fucking Bly has gotten men to try to get in touch with their feelings and all of that but men reading poetry written about men for men is hardly a new concept in western society, as new as it may be for some men.

 

[ruby sparks]

I think you have essentially
the same compass problem
as Derec, it's just
that yours points
in the opposite direction.

 

[Toni]

I think you have the same compass problem as Derec. It's just that yours points in the opposite direction.

No, it's just that I heard, read all of that stuff decades ago. It seemed tired and mediocre in 1974 and hasn't really improved (IMHO) with age. I've just never been much of a fan of Robert Bly. I know he was hugely popular among certain men back in the 60's and 70's but....if he's your thing, then great. If he's the introduction to some people to poetry, then great! Who am I to disagree? But still, poetry has by and large been written by men for men. And, to quote a film: to woo women. I wouldn't try it with anything by Bly, though.



Here's this:

http://nymag.com/betamale/2016/06/h...e-drum-thumping-mens-movement-of-the-90s.html

 

[laughing dog]

I think you have essentially
the same compass problem
as Derec, it's just
that yours points
in the opposite direction.

You are misusing the term "think".

 

[ruby sparks]

Thanks for spotting that, mate. Fuck me but you're an observant little so-and-so, aren't you?

 

[Hermit]

Ok so...a thread where interested parties can post about MR issues, the pros and cons of MRA's etc etc.

There are huge disadvantages in being male. They can be summarised by observing those disadvantages resulting in the life expectancy of males being about ten years shorter than that of females. Some prime reasons are that they insist on monopolising the tasks of being soldiers and other dangerous occupations. Also their unfortunate tendency of bottling up emotionally to the point of committing suicide.

Unfortunately, MRAs keep barking up the wrong tree about these things. If we want to play the blame game it's not women's fault. It's a classic case of bed made, and that's how we lie in it. MRAs are not mens' rights activists. They are misogynistic arseholes. They remind me of white supremacists purporting to defend the right of freedom of speech. Fuck off, the lot of you.

Being nitpicky here, but the life expectancy differences between men and women is less than 5 years currently in the US and similar in most of the world. Women in the US are having more heart attacks and there is an uptick in deaths related to pregnancy and childbirth.

Right you are. I probably quoted a vaguely remembered figure from decades ago. Things change. Still, all over the world women consistently live years longer than their local male counterparts.

Looking up some statistics just now, something I should have done before my previous post, I noticed a correlation between alcohol consumption and the difference in life expectancy. The nations where the latter is near or above the 10 year mark are also the most prolific drinkers.

Examples:
Belarus (1) 11.5 years
Moldova (2) 8.3
Lithuania (3) 11.0
Russia (4) 11.6

Conversely, the difference of life expectancy in countries with low average alcohol consumption lie in the <5 year range.

In no case have I found a country where men can on average live longer than women. Perhaps I just missed the exception(s). You can check for that here.

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

The only relevant difference might be....if (for example) the majority of MRAs were towards the 'toxic' end of the spectrum and only a minority of feminists were.

That still shouldn't be a reason to block out men who are having problems due to their gender. Men who are abused by their wives for example shouldn't be ignored or told that spousal abuse is a woman's issue and not a men's issue and they don't matter. They should be made to feel that they matter just as much as female victims.

I'm still trying to find the proper English word for when somebody is discriminated against because others who have a common trait (ie, being male) are privileged or others who lack that trait are oppressed. A male victim of spousal abuse is such an example. This sort of category error of judging an individual due to a group they are placed in due to a trait they share with others of that group, but don't necessarily conform to your judgment based on others in that group is one of the underpinnings that can make identity politics corrosive, and it is also often the seed of bigotry.

All I will say is that while I have reservations about feminism I'd have more about MRA. If someone called me a feminist I'd say, no I'm not actually, and if someone called me an MRA I'd be like, no way man, fuck off with that.

If defined properly, I have no problem saying I'm both a Feminist (care about unfair treatment to women) as well as an MRA (care about unfair treatment to men). So maybe the better answer to somebody who asks and has the toxic form in mind would be "I'm not THAT type of feminist/MRA"

I am totally prepared to be wrong and happy to say that I reckon there must be many reasonable MRAs (or similar groups) even if they are not in the majority.

They are more common than most are willing to see. You can see the strong bias in this very thread against them. They are quite often declared misogynists before they even are allowed to speak. And many "answers" or "defences" against them show that the speaker didn't listen to them, assuming they are hostile towards women or think women are looking to dominate etc. It can be seen in the podcast linked above that I listened to and commented on.

It would be a pity, imo, if men's rights and issues were not properly addressed or appreciated because of either men's rights groups being mostly toxic or being perceived as such, so my main interest (in this thread I mean) would be in advocating for men's rights to be addressed, separately from this or that or any particular group.

Agreed. But I don't expect you to get far with that, as again, any post regarding men's rights issues are prone to being either laughed at or assumed to be an attack on women.

I think that bias, of men needing to "man up" and of women being vulnerable and in need of protection is a part of what the feminists call "patriarchy". I feel that with that label they link it to blaming men for it, and therefore often can't see that men can also be victims of it and the men who are such victims are often not the same men (and women!) who prop it up. I think something like "Gender Role Tradition" would be more apt.

I have the same problem with people who claim Feminism is Egalitarianism and is a fight for gender equality (rather than a fight specifically for fair treatment to women). Karen Straughn has claimed that Feminists name everything good after women (Feminism) and everything bad after men (Patriarchy). She has a bit of a point there.

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A better movement imo would just leave criticising or competing with feminism out of the equation, by and large, or as little as possible, and just get on with addressing men's issues in a positive way.(

That can be really hard to do when there are Feminists protesting your meeting before a single word is spoken at it. There is a natural inclination to strike back, and often the MRAs facing the hostility become hostile themselves and fail to differentiate the two types of feminism.