Men's Rights Movement(s)

[ruby sparks]

So, Ruby, if you sense a bias against men who talk about their problems that is because you are a misogynist. If you were an abused man would you speak up about it or would you grow a pair?

Shut the fuck up because men caused all the problems, you are a man, you should never blame women for anything, and MRAs are misogynists who live in their mother's basements and harass femininists.

You are a father screwed out of child custody? As Paul Elam himself says, that's not usually because of a feminist judge. That's just society men built to see women as caregivers, so you have no right to complain.

You belong to the dominant group identity that made everything as it is, and by having the same gender as those who made the problems, you have no right to complain about it, regardless of what you are going through. You are a woman hater if you disagree.

Also, another group, women, have far more issues affecting far more people than your group, men have affecting them. It doesn't matter what you as an individual are going through. You belong to the dominant group so cry me a river then shut the fuck up. All lives don't matter. And we will pull the fire alarm if you try to discuss your problems with anyone foolish enough to listen.

I'm going to risk broadly agreeing with the gist of what you are saying, Jolly, and hope that there is room for nuance in the discussion and that the subject is not treated as if it were simple or black and white, or all this or all that.

Yes, I agree, the fact that (it seems) men's issues are not by and large as bad on average as women's is no good reason not to try to address them. Definitely, imo. To say otherwise would be akin to saying that the problems women in the 1st world face should not be aired and addressed because they are lesser than the problems of women in the rest of the world.

To me, a big aspect of this is proportion. If women's issues are more in need of addressing (and I agree they are) then society should spend more time on them. But address men's issues too. Concurrently (not before dealing with women's, and not by spending equal time or resources on them as women's issues, as someone thought was being suggested).

That said, it's not my impression that MRAs are doing a good job, at the moment. But then I admit to not being particularly familiar with the range of activities and groups out there. Perhaps I only notice the loud ones.

 

[Tom Sawyer]

While it's probably true that there are zero members of any MRA group who aren't misogynistic assholes...

Despite not being impressed much at all by what I've come across about and from MRAs (I admit I do not search it out) I would still be shocked if that were true.

Yes, that was meant more tongue in cheek than anything else.

..that doesn't mean that they haven't inadvertently stumbled upon some real issues through no fault of their own. Even if those issues are fairly trivial in the broader scope of things, people should always feel free to get worked up and passionate about whatever trivial and generally unimportant issues happen to tickle their fancy, as any thread about circumcision or Star Trek will show you.

Tom, I wonder if you're being typically male and trivialising serious issues. You know us guys. We find it hard to admit our problems and ask for help (and are discouraged about doing it too).

No but seriously, I am not ready to accept that mens issues are trivial. No. There are a lot of non-trivial ones.

What I do think is that if you take a typical man and a typical woman (temporarily dividing the issue in two and realising that there are a variety of orientations and genders) and all other things apart from their gender are equal (money, education, health, race.....etc) that the typical woman is worse off.

But that still leaves a huge amount of room for men's issues, very serious ones, I think.

Well, there's a significant difference between "men's issues" and "men's rights". While there are certainly a number of serious issues which disproportionately affect men, as have been mentioned, the focal point of men's rights is about how men are being oppressed and treated as inferiors and the system is biased towards women. There are some isolated scenarios where it can be argued that this is the case, the attempts to portray it using some kind of equivalency to the systemic oppression that women's rights movements began in response to is kind of like the guy who says "That cop just fined me for spitting my gum on the sidewalk - it's like I'm living in Nazi Germany".

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

I respectfully submit that it does not matter what an MRA says. They will be dismissed by both media and society at large as either misogynists or as unmanly and mocked.

 

[ruby sparks]

Well, there's a significant difference between "men's issues" and "men's rights". While there are certainly a number of serious issues which disproportionately affect men, as have been mentioned, the focal point of men's rights is about how men are being oppressed and treated as inferiors and the system is biased towards women. There are some isolated scenarios where it can be argued that this is the case, the attempts to portray it using some kind of equivalency to the systemic oppression that women's rights movements began in response to is kind of like the guy who says "That cop just fined me for spitting my gum on the sidewalk - it's like I'm living in Nazi Germany".

Yes, there is a difference between rights and issues. In day to day life, I think the line between them is often blurred. I'd be in favour of talking about 'rights and issues' (men's or women's) as a cover-all.

(A) Men being oppressed and treated as inferiors and the system being biased towards women is rubbish, imo, as is (B) any attempt to portray the two sets of issues as equivalent. For me that's a given, and the former (A) is, by and large, still the other way around, albeit less so than it used to be. Speaking personally.

 

[Tom Sawyer]

Yes, there is a difference between rights and issues. In day to day life, I think the line between them is blurred. I'd be in favour of talking about 'rights and issues' as a cover-all.

Men being oppressed and treated as inferiors and the system is biased towards women is rubbish, imo, as is any attempt to portray the two sets of issues as equivalent. For me that's a given. Speaking personally.

Well, the main question would be "What are MRA's going for"?

If one were to go into a men's rights meeting, what are the things which would be discussed in that meeting?

 

[Angry Floof]

I don't care about men's rights movements as much as I care about men's bowel movements. Seriously, guys, are you regular? Healthy poop is essential to a healthy life.

The Nazis claimed that they were being "persecuted" by Jews even as they loaded Jews into concentration camps.

White South Africans insisted that they were being "persecuted" by black South Africans during Apartheid.

Muslims in Muslim-majority countries insist that they are being "persecuted" by religious minorities in those countries.

Christians claim that they are being "persecuted" by women and homosexuals.

This is nothing new. If you are persecuting a disempowered group, just accuse them of what you are doing, and you can look at your own face in the mirror without so much as a twinge of guilt or shame.

In the case of MRAs, they really believe that men are inherently inferior and if we are forced to compete on a level playing field, we will lose.

Also, this.

 

[ruby sparks]

Yes, there is a difference between rights and issues. In day to day life, I think the line between them is blurred. I'd be in favour of talking about 'rights and issues' as a cover-all.

Men being oppressed and treated as inferiors and the system is biased towards women is rubbish, imo, as is any attempt to portray the two sets of issues as equivalent. For me that's a given. Speaking personally.

Well, the main question would be "What are MRA's going for"?

If one were to go into a men's rights meeting, what are the things which would be discussed in that meeting?

I don't know. As I said, I'm not familiar. I would just hope that there are moderate and reasonable MRAs out there, and if not, then I personally might be ok to stretching the discussion to include moderate and reasonable people or groups (of any gender) addressing men's issues, because at the end of the day MRA is just a name.

 

[Jason Harvestdancer]

There is a movie made by a feminist where she actually went out to meet with MRAs and find out what they are all about.

 The Red Pill

 

[rousseau]

 

[Tom Sawyer]

Yes, there is a difference between rights and issues. In day to day life, I think the line between them is blurred. I'd be in favour of talking about 'rights and issues' as a cover-all.

Men being oppressed and treated as inferiors and the system is biased towards women is rubbish, imo, as is any attempt to portray the two sets of issues as equivalent. For me that's a given. Speaking personally.

Well, the main question would be "What are MRA's going for"?

If one were to go into a men's rights meeting, what are the things which would be discussed in that meeting?

I don't know. As I said, I'm not familiar. I would just hope that there are moderate and reasonable MRAs out there, and if not, then I might stretch to include moderate and reasonable people (of any gender) addressing men's issues, because at the end of the day MRA is just a name.

No, MRA is more than a name, it's a representation of the people who join MRA groups. If feminist meetings were all about how all men are evil and how a guy who holds a door open for a lady is the same as a rapist then feminism would be a stupid philosophy despite there being legitimate women's rights issues. Similarly, if the MRA movement does not include moderate and reasonable people in it, then the fact that there are legitimate issues regarding men's rights would not make the MRA movement itself legitimate.

 

[Toni]

Ok so...a thread where interested parties can post about MR issues, the pros and cons of MRA's etc etc.

There are huge disadvantages in being male. They can be summarised by observing those disadvantages resulting in the life expectancy of males being about ten years shorter than that of females. Some prime reasons are that they insist on monopolising the tasks of being soldiers and other dangerous occupations. Also their unfortunate tendency of bottling up emotionally to the point of committing suicide.

Unfortunately, MRAs keep barking up the wrong tree about these things. If we want to play the blame game it's not women's fault. It's a classic case of bed made, and that's how we lie in it. MRAs are not mens' rights activists. They are misogynistic arseholes. They remind me of white supremacists purporting to defend the right of freedom of speech. Fuck off, the lot of you.

Being nitpicky here, but the life expectancy differences between men and women is less than 5 years currently in the US and similar in most of the world. Women in the US are having more heart attacks and there is an uptick in deaths related to pregnancy and childbirth.

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

There is a movie made by a feminist where she actually went out to meet with MRAs and find out what they are all about.

 The Red Pill

Sadly the Red Pill isn't a free movie, and Feminists wouldn't watch it even if it was.

 

[ruby sparks]

No, MRA is more than a name, it's a representation of the people who join MRA groups. If feminist meetings were all about how all men are evil and how a guy who holds a door open for a lady is the same as a rapist then feminism would be a stupid philosophy despite there being legitimate women's rights issues. Similarly, if the MRA movement does not include moderate and reasonable people in it, then the fact that there are legitimate issues regarding men's rights would not make the MRA movement itself legitimate.

No really, it's just a name.

Look, ok, it's the name of.....something. But that said, I'm not going to ask for posts here to be only about shall we say existing MRAs, as far as I'm concerned they can be about stuff that people would consider valid in relation to men's rights and issues.

Or, if there are in fact no moderates or reasonable people in any existing MRAs, then maybe a new thread entitled 'men's issues' would be better. But quite honestly, I'm not at the point yet where it's clear to me that there are no moderates or reasonable people in any existing MRAs, and also, I think it would be a pity to throw a baby out with the dirty bathwater in any case.

ETA: and the OP does say in the first line: "....a thread where interested parties can post about MR issues".

 

[ruby sparks]

There is a movie made by a feminist where she actually went out to meet with MRAs and find out what they are all about.

 The Red Pill

Sadly the Red Pill isn't a free movie, and Feminists wouldn't watch it even if it was.

Here though, is the director giving a talk on the topic:

[YOUTUBE]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3WMuzhQXJoY[/YOUTUBE]

I admit I've only skimmed it myself, for now. I'm supposed to be working.

At 10:15 she says,

"I thought that if I could get my audience to also listen to them, it could serve as a rung on the ladder and bring us all up to a higher consciousness about gender equality".

It seems to me that having investigated and spent time among MRAs (and among critics of MRAs), and despite being initially skeptical to the point of thinking of them as 'the enemy', she does not appear (unless she's being dishonest) to have found that all MRAs were unreasonable or assholes or only bringing up trivial issues, and she says she found that some of her own attitudes to gender issues changed.

Now, I don't know about the quality of the reporting or the film, but even if, as some critics have said, it doesn't sufficiently explore the 'dark side' of MRAs and is therefore overly sympathetic, I don't think, on the face of it, that would, at this point, vindicate an idea that all MRAs are unreasonable, misogynist arseholes.

 

[Beer With Straw]

There is a movie made by a feminist where she actually went out to meet with MRAs and find out what they are all about.

 The Red Pill

Sadly the Red Pill isn't a free movie, and Feminists wouldn't watch it even if it was.

Um, there is quite a lot of content on the internet you can get.

Like this: http://sockshare.net/watch/nGE4V7xb-the-red-pill.html

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

I respectfully submit that it does not matter what an MRA says. They will be dismissed by both media and society at large as either misogynists or as unmanly and mocked.

Well, its the baggage you see. After a while, no one fucking cares what they have to say. Some person wrote a story about it. It was about a boy... was eaten by a wolf. Yeah, he was right that one time about the wolf. But no one gave a fuck. Sure, all cries for help matter, but the importance of said cries die off after such a long time of bullshitting.

 

[rousseau]

I respectfully submit that it does not matter what an MRA says. They will be dismissed by both media and society at large as either misogynists or as unmanly and mocked.

Well, its the baggage you see. After a while, no one fucking cares what they have to say. Some person wrote a story about it. It was about a boy... was eaten by a wolf. Yeah, he was right that one time about the wolf. But no one gave a fuck. Sure, all cries for help matter, but the importance of said cries die off after such a long time of bullshitting.

This.

There are male specific issues, but those who identify as MRA quite often have a chip on their shoulder. The same goes for many people who identify with feminism, which is what makes these movements so divisive.

If people knew how to get along and discuss things sensibly there would be no problem, but in practice we just get a bunch of jaded men and women who are more interested in jeering at each other than trying to work toward mutually beneficial solutions.

 

[braces_for_impact]

Almost every time I've run into an MRA online or in person, they turn out to, at the root of things, to be upset that they can no longer keep a woman under their thumb. There are issues I think that are specific to men that need work, but I've never seen an MRA that actually does anything to address them, they mostly seem like bitter misogynists bent on using free speech as an excuse to "put women in their place", or as they would like to call it "equal".

 

[braces_for_impact]

There is a movie made by a feminist where she actually went out to meet with MRAs and find out what they are all about.

 The Red Pill

Sadly the Red Pill isn't a free movie, and Feminists wouldn't watch it even if it was.

Here though, is the director giving a talk on the topic:

[YOUTUBE]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3WMuzhQXJoY[/YOUTUBE]

I admit I've only skimmed it myself, for now. I'm supposed to be working.

At 10:15 she says,

"I thought that if I could get my audience to also listen to them, it could serve as a rung on the ladder and bring us all up to a higher consciousness about gender equality".

It seems to me that having investigated and spent time among MRAs (and among critics of MRAs), and despite being initially skeptical to the point of thinking of them as 'the enemy', she does not appear (unless she's being dishonest) to have found that all MRAs were unreasonable or assholes or only bringing up trivial issues, and she says she found that some of her own attitudes to gender issues changed.

Now, I don't know about the quality of the reporting or the film, but even if, as some critics have said, it doesn't sufficiently explore the 'dark side' of MRAs and is therefore overly sympathetic, I don't think, on the face of it, that would, at this point, vindicate an idea that all MRAs are unreasonable, misogynist arseholes.

Doesn't it turn out as I recall that the movie ended up being funded by MRA's, and then surprise, surprise she ends up with a conclusion in their favor? Also, feminists have watched, and reviewed it. Thomas Smith of the podcast Serious Inquiries Only devoted a couple of episodes t it, where he made quite a bit of sense, and ended up on the radar of some rather nasty people because of it, all over Twitter and Youtube and so on. It seems these MRA's always travel in bad company. I wonder why that is?

 

[ruby sparks]

Doesn't it turn out as I recall that the movie ended up being funded by MRA's, and then surprise, surprise she ends up with a conclusion in their favor?

She says that MRAs were among the funders, one of many, and not among the five largest. Also that backers did not have editorial control.

Also, feminists have watched, and reviewed it. Thomas Smith of the podcast Serious Inquiries Only devoted a couple of episodes t it, where he made quite a bit of sense, and ended up on the radar of some rather nasty people because of it, all over Twitter and Youtube and so on. It seems these MRA's always travel in bad company. I wonder why that is?

I don't know. What do you think?