Metaphysics is a self delusional anadyne

[untermensche]

That post has nothing but bad opinion.

No meat.

Nothing in need of dispute.

If you had arguments you would make them, not simply assertions about arguments in your mind somewhere.

I used my mind to form these sentences.

Minds understand and can use ideas.

Brains are cells that use glucose and emit small molecules. They do not use ideas to function. They cannot possibly use ideas to make decisions.

How--exactly--does any of that allow for it to physically direct arm movement?

More absolute ignorance of my position, although I have stated it.

You have the brain.

You have the activity of the brain. We don't have a clue what subset of activity it is.

You have a product of that activity, the mind. We have no clue what the objective mind is, the specific activity that creates the subjective mind.

And one feature of the mind is it can effect the activity that creates it. It has a feedback ability.

So mind effects activity which effects brain which effects other activity which moves the arm.

So much for all your stupidity about my ontology.

 

[ruby sparks]

Ok. And I am not familiar with Nietzche or what he said about the will.

What I am thinking though is that, correct me if I'm wrong, your example, often used, of raising your arm suggests that you are free do do that at any time (barring some physical restraint) because your mind is independent of your brain (and body). So, you can see where I'm going by brining up panic etc.

It's not that I don't believe there is a will (or a mind) it's just that....I do not think either has (or understand how it/they could have) as many freedoms (or as much freedom) as you seem to sometimes imply. I see a two-way process, where the mind influences the brain and the other way around. In short, I think you claim too much for the mind.

Absolutely not.

My mind is connected to my brain, not free from it.

But my mind makes decisions based on things like ideas.

The brain does not function based on ideas and therefore cannot make decisions based on ideas.

Ok so, I had thought that you had been saying that your mind was free from your brain and in charge of your body (or could be, at those times when it wanted to be) and that that was the whole point of your arm lifting example.

If you are saying it is not entirely free then we are not so far apart, even if I doubt we will ever agree about free will. Though I wonder how much we might agree on the 'in between', in other words, how free the mind is?

 

[Koyaanisqatsi]

If you had arguments you would make them

Coward.

 

[untermensche]

If you had arguments you would make them

Coward.

As we see.

 

[Koyaanisqatsi]

If you had arguments you would make them

Coward in the fact that I have made exhaustive arguments that you childishly ignored and then claimed I made no arguments.

How--exactly--does any of that allow for it to physically direct arm movement?

More absolute ignorance of my position...So mind effects activity which effects brain which effects other activity which moves the arm.

So brain moves the arm.

So much for all your stupidity about my ontology.

You have no ontology. You are revealed as an intellectually dishonest poseur.

 

[untermensche]

Ok. And I am not familiar with Nietzche or what he said about the will.

What I am thinking though is that, correct me if I'm wrong, your example, often used, of raising your arm suggests that you are free do do that at any time (barring some physical restraint) because your mind is independent of your brain (and body). So, you can see where I'm going by brining up panic etc.

It's not that I don't believe there is a will (or a mind) it's just that....I do not think either has (or understand how it/they could have) as many freedoms (or as much freedom) as you seem to sometimes imply. I see a two-way process, where the mind influences the brain and the other way around. In short, I think you claim too much for the mind.

Absolutely not.

My mind is connected to my brain, not free from it.

But my mind makes decisions based on things like ideas.

The brain does not function based on ideas and therefore cannot make decisions based on ideas.

Ok so, I had thought that you had been saying that your mind was free from your brain and in charge of your body (or could be, at those times when it wanted to be) and that that was the whole point of your arm lifting example.

If you are saying it is not entirely free then we are not so far apart, even if I doubt we will ever agree about free will. Though I wonder how much we might agree on the 'in between', in other words, how free the mind is?

I am saying my mind is able to make decisions and act on them.

It has the ability to influence the brain.

It must have a connection to the brain to do this.

The mind is also generate by a subset of brain activity.

Activity of cells.

Cells can't make decisions based on ideas. They would need something external to them commanding them to make them do something like that.



- - - Updated - - -

So brain moves the arm.

On command.

Every time.

You do not make arguments. You badly label things and fail to see clear distinctions.

 

[Koyaanisqatsi]

So brain moves the arm.

On command.

So now the heat commands the heater.

Idiotic drivel.

 

[ruby sparks]

So if the mind can command the arm to lift, but not command a person not to panic, what is happening in one that is not happening in the other?

The mind has limited control. Yeah?

- - - Updated - - -

So brain moves the arm.

On command.

So now the heat commands the heater.

Idiotic drivel.

But in some cases, maybe it does. Take placebos for example. There is an effect (on the body) which apparently only (or at least effectively) 'enters the system' as an idea.

 

[untermensche]

So brain moves the arm.

On command.

So now the heat commands the heater.

Idiotic drivel.

Never have I said the heat is an equivalent phenomena to a mind.

Desperate drivel.

 

[untermensche]

Take placebos for example. There is an effect (on the body) which apparently only (or at least effectively) 'enters the system' as an idea.

A bad belief can effect the body.

Cells do not have beliefs.

 

[Speakpigeon]

The will to learn things.

That is how we know things.

Not some magical invisible thing called "intelligence".

The will and memory.

That is all a person needs to know many things.

But there is also the will to question what people say and not believe everything you hear.

Another manifestation of the will.

Ah, looks like you are trying to be rational, explaining things and all. Good!

So, it's Not some magical invisible thing called "intelligence". Yeah, this is all so reassuring. What a relief. We feel like we're going into some rational territory.

The will and memory. That is all a person needs to know many things.

Ah, yes? Will and memory? Really?

So, it's not some magical thing called "intelligence", it's just some magical things called "will" and "memory"...

See, even when you want to try, there's something that just stops you. Something invisible and magical called "untermensche".
EB

 

[Speakpigeon]

My mind is connected to my brain, not free from it.

But my mind makes decisions based on things like ideas.

The brain does not function based on ideas and therefore cannot make decisions based on ideas.

You see, one day, I think not very far away, science will show in details how the brain does all that is necessary to understand why people's arms and legs move, including how the brain's processes prepare the body for action and make plans according to the perception it gets from the environment and things like memories of past events and the love for candy or beer. And if these things are indeed enough to explain why the arms and the legs, and other things like the fingers and the tongue and the mouth etc. all move, then people will conclude that the mind, the mind as a subjective thing, won't be necessary to explain things. "Sir", some Laplace lookalike will demure, "I didn't need that to use hypothesis".
Your views are inconsistent.
EB

 

[4321lynx]

Ok. And I am not familiar with Nietzche or what he said about the will.

What I am thinking though is that, correct me if I'm wrong, your example, often used, of raising your arm suggests that you are free do do that at any time (barring some physical restraint) because your mind is independent of your brain (and body). So, you can see where I'm going by brining up panic etc.

It's not that I don't believe there is a will (or a mind) it's just that....I do not think either has (or understand how it/they could have) as many freedoms (or as much freedom) as you seem to sometimes imply. I see a two-way process, where the mind influences the brain and the other way around. In short, I think you claim too much for the mind.

Absolutely not.

My mind is connected to my brain, not free from it.

But my mind makes decisions based on things like ideas.

The brain does not function based on ideas and therefore cannot make decisions based on ideas.

Ideas, decisions, memories, your will, and a host of other things that in sum make your mind and you "you" at any particular moment, all of these are a function of your brain. Without a brain they cannot exist. You/we/humans can train our brains, using our minds to do the training, train our brains to do many things, some of them quite outstanding in being unusual, surprising and often unrepeatable by others. But there are other things that your brain signals your mind you cannot do and survive: go without water for a month, without sleep for a month, without food for a year, without taking a breath for 10 minutes. Usually your brain, being in certain things an automaton, signals its needs much sooner by thirst, drowsiness, hunger, and whatever you call that "I need O2 and need to get rid of CO2" sensation. There is no mind, it is the sum total of all functions of your brain, physiological in that it and its functions are automatic and inherited through the DNA, but trainable through time, learning, experience, memory, reasoning etc all of which necessitate a functioning brain and are functions of that brain which in sum and for the sake of brevity we call a mind. It gives us something to argue about and demonstrate the old saying about our own minds that " I am strong-minded, you are stubborn, and he is pig-headed."

 

[untermensche]

The mind is not a function of the brain.

The brain is cells.

The mind is some unknown phenomena that arises from some subset of activity of the brain.

Some think it is some kind of unknown quantum effect.

What specifically is causing the effect is unknown.

 

[Grendel]

Seems to me you would do well to drop the pretence you understand these things and start to pay attention to what people actually say. Understanding the world requires humilityEB

Hmmmmmm .... I leave you in peace. I think we understand each other a little better now, don't you? ... heheeee

But just out of interest why is humility necessary to understand the world? Unter has just claimed that we need a 'mind' and a 'will' and 'memory'. He also says he doesn't know what a mind is caused by.


How many 'things' does a philosopher need? Can you just make them up as you require them?

 

[4321lynx]

The mind is not a function of the brain.

The brain is cells.

The mind is some unknown phenomena that arises from some subset
of activity of the brain. = arises from brain function = is part of brain function (there are other parts of brain function) = is a function of the brain.

Some think it is some kind of unknown quantum effect.
What specifically is causing the effect is unknown.

My bolding and "editorial" comments.

And: The amoeba is just one cell.

 

[untermensche]

The mind is not a function of the brain.

The brain is cells.

The mind is some unknown phenomena that arises from some subset
of activity of the brain. = arises from brain function = is part of brain function (there are other parts of brain function) = is a function of the brain.

Some think it is some kind of unknown quantum effect.
What specifically is causing the effect is unknown.

My bolding and "editorial" comments.

You bastardized my comments.

Turned them into total worthless shit.

Don't you have any comments of your own?

A function of the brain is something it does.

The brain creates the activity that creates the mind.

The mind is a function of activity. Not of the brain.

There is brain then activity then mind.

The brain is removed from the mind by one step. Not close to the same thing.

 

[4321lynx]

Same old same old same old ..........

You bastardized my comments.

Turned them into total worthless shit.

Illuminated them as such.

 

[Grendel]

The mind is not a function of the brain.

Some think it is some kind of unknown quantum effect.

Unter,

This is a strange claim.

The whole Universe and everything in it is a quantum effect. Everything occurring, every event, every moment is a derivative of quantum behaviour.

Do you understand that if the Mind is a product of some 'unknown' quantum effect then the Mind is simply a function of the brain. There is no escape from this conclusion.

Our 'Minds' don't really exist, they are not entities, just the measurement of the biological dynamism of brain activity.

You can't have a bucketful of 'minds' can you? A mind is not a material object, so therefore it cannot be an entity. It's just a measurement (dimension) of brain activity. There is NO difference between Mind, God, and the Kaditcha Man.

Philosophy is a religion followed by those who don't believe in religion. But they have fallen for the same idealogy as theists while denying they are theists. It's the last religion and refuge of those spiritual people who escape religion but have nothing to replace it with, no understanding.

Take a good look at it! When it becomes necessary to prop up your belief with even more 'made-up-entities' (will, compassion, love, hate, memory, nostalgia) to explain the 'mind' then surely you can see that you're on the wrong track. Otherwise you wouldn't have to keep filling the gaps with more made-up-entities.

Something simpler must underpin the whole 'mind' hypothesis. Look for it with your own 'mind' and you'll find it. Don't be fooled by those who worship the 'philosophers'. They're lost themselves. It's just as profitable to worship alchemy or astrology or the secret mayan cultures.

 

[Grendel]

You bastardized my comments. Turned them into total worthless shit.

Illuminated them as such.

Bwahahaaaaaaa ... Thank god and all the angels and the saints for the humour in this thread.