Millennials Are Leaving Religion And Not Coming Back

[skepticalbip]

.
View attachment 25268

And with good reason. I have it on excellent authority that the young today have misplaced priorities:

1.
They [Young People] have exalted notions, because they have not been humbled by life or learned its necessary limitations; moreover, their hopeful disposition makes them think themselves equal to great things -- and that means having exalted notions. They would always rather do noble deeds than useful ones: Their lives are regulated more by moral feeling than by reasoning -- all their mistakes are in the direction of doing things excessively and vehemently. They overdo everything -- they love too much, hate too much, and the same with everything else.
~ Aristotle

2.
"The world is passing through troublous times. The young people of today think of nothing but themselves. They have no reverence for parents or old age. They are impatient of all restraint. They talk as if they knew everything, and what passes for wisdom with us is foolishness with them. As for the girls, they are forward, immodest and unladylike in speech, behavior and dress."
~ From a sermon preached by Peter the Hermit in A.D. 1274

3.
"I see no hope for the future of our people if they are dependent on frivolous youth of today, for certainly all youth are reckless beyond words... When I was young, we were taught to be discreet and respectful of elders, but the present youth are exceedingly wise [disrespectful] and impatient of restraint".
~ Hesiod, 8th century BC

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

Why is the religious message so full of fear and despair, that a defenseless infant is born filthy, wretched and worthless? What is wrong with a person that he cannot outgrow and get past this insidious religious propaganda?

My wife and I always reflect on the fact that you shouldn't judge people too quickly because you don't know what their lives have dealt them. It's easy to assume that someone had the same life as your own, maybe not ideal but still okay. But that is very often not the case.

If as a group millenials are deciding that superstition isn't worth the time, good on them. Turn those old churches where pedophiles roamed into decent businesses, or tear them down and make some space for people to grow weed, brew wine and spirits and take walks on green grass.

 

[Rhea]

I'm willing to bet the assumption that they are more consumeristic than Boomers, who built American consumer
decadent wealth of gadgets and trinkets unnecessary for living..

My point is oter things are cultruraly replcing religion,

Religion used to provide a foundation for living. A means to derive self worth from something other than accumulation of things.

.

I’m trying to reconcile this view of religion as deriving meaning without things.... with.... for example , the Vatican.
And Megachurches.


Not succeeding.

 

[rousseau]

I doubt it correlates strongly with science.

I'd bet it has more to do with consumerism and convenience, and the increasing alienation of individuals as lone consumer-workers and as enterprisers more interested in self-development than following in the footsteps of others. So more like increased 'Me-ism' than rationalism's progress.

Could be. I always figured that people's reality is socially constructed. Before Darwin there wasn't much of a meaningful explanation of the world, so everyone learned that God did it, and that was that.

Today, science is so pervasive that most reasonable people have the intuitive realization that 'we can explain this now' and just assume religion is untrue.

I think this would be pretty much borne out by studying the correlation between Western education and religiosity worldwide. In places where people aren't taught an alternative (science), religion is rampant.

 

[Politesse]

I'm confused as to how one could know whether Millenials will return to the faith later in life or not? The oldest of us are only forty, well before the Azzi-Ehrenberg threshold.

 

[ronburgundy]

Millennials new religion is hating on Boomers.

Speaking as a boomer maybe that's a good thing.

It might be if so many of them weren't engaging in the same kind of mindless, fact-free, historically ignorant, group-think, meme-based ideas and arguments, just like the worst of the Boomers they hate. And no, I'm not hating on Millenials for being Millenials. I'm criticizing the actions of individuals who happen to be Millenials and act as though membership in a generational category makes all Boomers bad and all Millenials above reproach.

For example, while bitching about Boomers and GenXers lack of action on the environment, only 28% of Millenials bothered to vote to keep Trump out of office, and thus the rest share responsibility for the untold generations of damage his Presidency has and will do. That's lower than the 30% of Gen Xers and even 30% of Boomers who voted against Trump. That might seem surprising, but even though younger voters did vote increasingly in favor of Hillary, more Millennials who could have voted didn't bother to vote at all, and therefore more Millenials did not vote against Trump.

When you try to criticize the inherent group-think bigotry of the "Ok Boomer" meme the only response your likely to get is "OK Boomer".

The problem isn't Boomers, it's conservatives, and while there are more of them among Boomers, there are conservatives at every age and many Millenials will become more conservative with age. Attacking Boomers as though it's synonymous with conservatives is like attacking "blacks" as a group as though its synonymous with gun violence, just b/c a higher % of blacks have engaged in gun violence.
Criticize people based upon their own actions, not based upon unchosen affiliation with a category.

 

[atrib]

The billboard says it best.

View attachment 25265

Why is it a bad thing to want to enjoy your life? And how is enjoying your life the same thing as living as if there were no tomorrow? They are not the same thing at all.

And why is it better to spend your life as a slave submitting to an imaginary god, tortured with guilt and a sense of low self-worth, always fearful that you may do something to piss it off and bring its wrath upon your head? What is it about this life that appeals to you so much?

 

[steve_bank]

I'm willing to bet the assumption that they are more consumeristic than Boomers, who built American consumer
decadent wealth of gadgets and trinkets unnecessary for living..

My point is oter things are cultruraly replcing religion,

Religion used to provide a foundation for living. A means to derive self worth from something other than accumulation of things.

.

I’m trying to reconcile this view of religion as deriving meaning without things.... with.... for example , the Vatican.
And Megachurches.


Not succeeding.

For me it is not a black and white issue. For many Christians I have known it provides hope above all else. Look at the history of black Christianity. I try and take a balanced view.

In colonial times a local church provided social services.

Looking back for although the faith did not stick the RCC schools I went to provided a structure and moral environment I did not get from my family.

So the question for me is if Christianity in this country is abandoned what replaces it, even considering the well known moral failures such as the RCC sex abuse. It is hard to deny that our social structure is corroding.

If you want to see the corrosion walk around Seattle for a month. Young people smoking crack in sight of the courthouse. It occurs all over downtown and is too big for the police.In the news a 14 year old girl stabbed someone 7 times. School shootings and the hundreds that have been prevented.

For centuries religion served to keep a lid on things. Today the media, Hollywood, and advertising are creating the norms. Most of it is distopian.

That is how I see it. While I argue against the religions, I also see some positive aspects,. Maybe a topic for social science.

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

I'm willing to bet the assumption that they are more consumeristic than Boomers, who built American consumer
decadent wealth of gadgets and trinkets unnecessary for living..

My point is oter things are cultruraly replcing religion,

Religion used to provide a foundation for living. A means to derive self worth from something other than accumulation of things.

.

I’m trying to reconcile this view of religion as deriving meaning without things.... with.... for example , the Vatican.
And Megachurches.


Not succeeding.

For me it is not a black and white issue. For many Christians I have known it provides hope above all else. Look at the history of black Christianity. I try and take a balanced view.

In colonial times a local church provided social services.

Looking back for although the faith did not stick the RCC schools I went to provided a structure and moral environment I did not get from my family.

So the question for me is if Christianity in this country is abandoned what replaces it, even considering the well known moral failures such as the RCC sex abuse. It is hard to deny that our social structure is corroding.

If you want to see the corrosion walk around Seattle for a month. Young people smoking crack in sight of the courthouse. It occurs all over downtown and is too big for the police.In the news a 14 year old girl stabbed someone 7 times. School shootings and the hundreds that have been prevented.

For centuries religion served to keep a lid on things. Today the media, Hollywood, and advertising are creating the norms. Most of it is distopian.

That is how I see it. While I argue against the religions, I also see some positive aspects,. Maybe a topic for social science.

That sounds very much like a 'good old days' argument. In those good old days alcoholism and domestic violence were rampant. Maybe the post ww2 economic boom helped things in the U.S. but it didn't solve anything.

Religion isn't for me something that solves anything but rather proceeds from something that's already there in the society and the culture. Primarily religion is a vertical social hierarchy, a pecking order, that's all. Buy into the social order or don't. But it certainly doesn't empower the individual or solve fundamental problems. The woo factor is actually pretty unimportant in comparison to this other aspect.

When people praise religion they're essentially praising the virtues of monarchy.

 

[Rhea]

I'm willing to bet the assumption that they are more consumeristic than Boomers, who built American consumer
decadent wealth of gadgets and trinkets unnecessary for living..

My point is oter things are cultruraly replcing religion,

Religion used to provide a foundation for living. A means to derive self worth from something other than accumulation of things.

.

I’m trying to reconcile this view of religion as deriving meaning without things.... with.... for example , the Vatican.
And Megachurches.


Not succeeding.

For me it is not a black and white issue. For many Christians I have known it provides hope above all else. Look at the history of black Christianity. I try and take a balanced view.

In colonial times a local church provided social services.

Looking back for although the faith did not stick the RCC schools I went to provided a structure and moral environment I did not get from my family.

So the question for me is if Christianity in this country is abandoned what replaces it, even considering the well known moral failures such as the RCC sex abuse. It is hard to deny that our social structure is corroding.

If you want to see the corrosion walk around Seattle for a month. Young people smoking crack in sight of the courthouse. It occurs all over downtown and is too big for the police.In the news a 14 year old girl stabbed someone 7 times. School shootings and the hundreds that have been prevented.

For centuries religion served to keep a lid on things. Today the media, Hollywood, and advertising are creating the norms. Most of it is distopian.

That is how I see it. While I argue against the religions, I also see some positive aspects,. Maybe a topic for social science.

I do not understand black christianity.

And as someone raising good moral secular kids, I don’t identify with your feeling that without church something is lacking.

I also agree with the disconnect with your pining for the good old days of spousal abuse and rape, child abuse without public interference, in-home substance abuse, lynchings, racism and gang and mob violence. The fact that in the evils were not spoken of doesn’t make them not present.

 

[bilby]

I'm willing to bet the assumption that they are more consumeristic than Boomers, who built American consumer
decadent wealth of gadgets and trinkets unnecessary for living..

My point is oter things are cultruraly replcing religion,

Religion used to provide a foundation for living. A means to derive self worth from something other than accumulation of things.

.

I’m trying to reconcile this view of religion as deriving meaning without things.... with.... for example , the Vatican.
And Megachurches.


Not succeeding.

For me it is not a black and white issue. For many Christians I have known it provides hope above all else. Look at the history of black Christianity. I try and take a balanced view.

In colonial times a local church provided social services.

Looking back for although the faith did not stick the RCC schools I went to provided a structure and moral environment I did not get from my family.

So the question for me is if Christianity in this country is abandoned what replaces it, even considering the well known moral failures such as the RCC sex abuse. It is hard to deny that our social structure is corroding.

If you want to see the corrosion walk around Seattle for a month. Young people smoking crack in sight of the courthouse. It occurs all over downtown and is too big for the police.In the news a 14 year old girl stabbed someone 7 times. School shootings and the hundreds that have been prevented.

For centuries religion served to keep a lid on things. Today the media, Hollywood, and advertising are creating the norms. Most of it is distopian.

That is how I see it. While I argue against the religions, I also see some positive aspects,. Maybe a topic for social science.

You are committing a post-hoc fallacy: Religiosity in Seattle declined, and crime increased; Therefore declining religiosity caused the increased crime.

Observing a wider sample of societies shows that this correlation likely isn't causitive in either direction - the two factors are, if anything, slightly negatively correlated when a sufficiently large sample of societies are polled.

Within the US, crime rates are typically higher the higher the level of religious observance; when you expand your survey to the developed world, the lowest crime and highest quality of life are found in the least religious places.

Absence of religion doesn't cause poverty, crime or social problems. Though there's some evidence that living surrounded by poverty, crime and social problems leads to some increase in religiosity.

 

[bilby]

For me it is not a black and white issue. For many Christians I have known it provides hope above all else. Look at the history of black Christianity. I try and take a balanced view.

In colonial times a local church provided social services.

Looking back for although the faith did not stick the RCC schools I went to provided a structure and moral environment I did not get from my family.

So the question for me is if Christianity in this country is abandoned what replaces it, even considering the well known moral failures such as the RCC sex abuse. It is hard to deny that our social structure is corroding.

If you want to see the corrosion walk around Seattle for a month. Young people smoking crack in sight of the courthouse. It occurs all over downtown and is too big for the police.In the news a 14 year old girl stabbed someone 7 times. School shootings and the hundreds that have been prevented.

For centuries religion served to keep a lid on things. Today the media, Hollywood, and advertising are creating the norms. Most of it is distopian.

That is how I see it. While I argue against the religions, I also see some positive aspects,. Maybe a topic for social science.

I do not understand black christianity.

And as someone raising good moral secular kids, I don’t identify with your feeling that without church something is lacking.

I also agree with the disconnect with your pining for the good old days of spousal abuse and rape, child abuse without public interference, in-home substance abuse, lynchings, racism and gang and mob violence. The fact that in the evils were not spoken of doesn’t make them not present.

Black christianity is easily understood, if you recognise that religion is - like drug and alcohol abuse - an attempt to solve unsolvable problems.

When life is crappy, and the causes of that crappiness are beyond our control, some turn to gods; some to drink; some to drugs. None of these things solve the problems, but they all make people feel better.

Christianity in particular is fine-tuned to take advantage if people who are at rock bottom. And religiosity is far more common amongst those whose life and livelihood is dominated by forces outside their control, such as farmers and sailors, than it is amongst those who live in cities where problems can be at least in principle resolved by dealing with other people.

 

[Sarpedon]

Seriously, how many millenials do you hang out with?

In my experience, Millenial dwellings have fewer trinkets than boomer dwellings. The trinkets are different, of course. You don't find action figures in a boomer house, but then, you don't find ceramic babies in millenial houses.

One thing that boomer and forgotten generation people are doing now is 'downsizing.' They are getting rid of the crap they accumulated over the years, to move into smaller dwellings. I have spoken to a number of boomers and forgottens who have expressed frustration to me that the things they are getting rid of, things they were assured were valuable, are now worth nothing, because no one wants them. Silverware, china, crystal, furniture to put them in, different sets of decorations for different times of year, a pot for every variety of food, pans for nothing but making a particular type of dessert, these are things I have found in exactly zero millenial dwellings. Second houses, yard tractors, boats, a motorcycle for no other purpose but to cruise around on weekends. It baffles me to hear boomers, who ruined our environment to hoard such trinkets, to the extent that they are now a burden to them, then turn around and call millenials materialistic.

 

[DBT]

...

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

Seriously, how many millenials do you hang out with?

In my experience, Millenial dwellings have fewer trinkets than boomer dwellings. The trinkets are different, of course. You don't find action figures in a boomer house, but then, you don't find ceramic babies in millenial houses.

One thing that boomer and forgotten generation people are doing now is 'downsizing.' They are getting rid of the crap they accumulated over the years, to move into smaller dwellings. I have spoken to a number of boomers and forgottens who have expressed frustration to me that the things they are getting rid of, things they were assured were valuable, are now worth nothing, because no one wants them. Silverware, china, crystal, furniture to put them in, different sets of decorations for different times of year, a pot for every variety of food, pans for nothing but making a particular type of dessert, these are things I have found in exactly zero millenial dwellings. Second houses, yard tractors, boats, a motorcycle for no other purpose but to cruise around on weekends. It baffles me to hear boomers, who ruined our environment to hoard such trinkets, to the extent that they are now a burden to them, then turn around and call millenials materialistic.

Doesn't everyone want an easy day job that affords them a seven bedroom house, five bathrooms, a three car garage with an in-ground pool on five mowed acres that is ten miles from the nearest doctor, post office, shopping center or fire hydrant, with a well that gets slow in dry weather, a ten thousand dollar septic/sand mound in the back yard, a quarter mile driveway that needs plowed and salted every winter, and requires a sixty minute commute in a four wheel drive vehicle that costs twice as much as standard transportation?

What's not to like?

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

Hey man, we blazed the trail. I do think we won, for the most part. I haven't faced any hate for being atheist in a long while now. I can remember when it was very taboo. I remember being forced to say the Lord's Prayer every morning in school, and being punished for refusing to.

 

[bigfield]

Seriously, how many millenials do you hang out with?

In my experience, Millenial dwellings have fewer trinkets than boomer dwellings. The trinkets are different, of course. You don't find action figures in a boomer house, but then, you don't find ceramic babies in millenial houses.

One thing that boomer and forgotten generation people are doing now is 'downsizing.' They are getting rid of the crap they accumulated over the years, to move into smaller dwellings. I have spoken to a number of boomers and forgottens who have expressed frustration to me that the things they are getting rid of, things they were assured were valuable, are now worth nothing, because no one wants them. Silverware, china, crystal, furniture to put them in, different sets of decorations for different times of year, a pot for every variety of food, pans for nothing but making a particular type of dessert, these are things I have found in exactly zero millenial dwellings. Second houses, yard tractors, boats, a motorcycle for no other purpose but to cruise around on weekends. It baffles me to hear boomers, who ruined our environment to hoard such trinkets, to the extent that they are now a burden to them, then turn around and call millenials materialistic.

Doesn't everyone want an easy day job that affords them a seven bedroom house, five bathrooms, a three car garage with an in-ground pool on five mowed acres that is ten miles from the nearest doctor, post office, shopping center or fire hydrant, with a well that gets slow in dry weather, a ten thousand dollar septic/sand mound in the back yard, a quarter mile driveway that needs plowed and salted every winter, and requires a sixty minute commute in a four wheel drive vehicle that costs twice as much as standard transportation?

What's not to like?

Well, it depends on which school zone it's in.

 

[Tom Sawyer]

Seriously, how many millenials do you hang out with?

In my experience, Millenial dwellings have fewer trinkets than boomer dwellings. The trinkets are different, of course. You don't find action figures in a boomer house, but then, you don't find ceramic babies in millenial houses.

One thing that boomer and forgotten generation people are doing now is 'downsizing.' They are getting rid of the crap they accumulated over the years, to move into smaller dwellings. I have spoken to a number of boomers and forgottens who have expressed frustration to me that the things they are getting rid of, things they were assured were valuable, are now worth nothing, because no one wants them. Silverware, china, crystal, furniture to put them in, different sets of decorations for different times of year, a pot for every variety of food, pans for nothing but making a particular type of dessert, these are things I have found in exactly zero millenial dwellings. Second houses, yard tractors, boats, a motorcycle for no other purpose but to cruise around on weekends. It baffles me to hear boomers, who ruined our environment to hoard such trinkets, to the extent that they are now a burden to them, then turn around and call millenials materialistic.

Doesn't everyone want an easy day job that affords them a seven bedroom house, five bathrooms, a three car garage with an in-ground pool on five mowed acres that is ten miles from the nearest doctor, post office, shopping center or fire hydrant, with a well that gets slow in dry weather, a ten thousand dollar septic/sand mound in the back yard, a quarter mile driveway that needs plowed and salted every winter, and requires a sixty minute commute in a four wheel drive vehicle that costs twice as much as standard transportation?

What's not to like?

Well, it depends on which school zone it's in.

What, you send your kids to public school? That's basically child abuse, you monster.

 

[southernhybrid]

NM....

 

[ronburgundy]

Religion used to provide a foundation for living. A means to derive self worth from something other than accumulation of things.

Religion mostly derives self-worth by hate and belief that others are worth-less, combined with promoting the notion that one's value is determined by authoritarian obedience.

There is nothing positive about that, and there is no evidence that it generally leads to lower materialism (which itself is not even a negative thing unless excessive short term material gain leads to long term material harm).

There are as many examples of wealth being equated with religious virtue as with lack of piety. Religion is used to rationalize whatever actions and viewpoint is most convenient to the local religious authorities within a given context.

Sex abuse and domestic violence are not rising, but falling due to secularism. What's rising is the exposure and prosecution of these harmful things that for centuries religion not only promoted but helped to cover up and silence the victims.

Drug abuse is rising as a byproduct of drug use (which is again, not a bad thing but an indicator of people valuing pleasure over authoritarian obedience). Freedom means freedom to make bad choices. Those who seek to control and use people as objects for their own gain don't want people having pleasure that could "damage the merchandise". When people start being able to choose their own actions for their own "well being", some will choose to current happiness and pleasure over the longevity and "purity", and that is a good thing, b/c the latter are only inherently superior in the minds of controlling authoritarians.

There is no philosophical replacement for religion, the result is people growing up with no foundation and stability. The reports are widespread anxiety and the attendant meds.

Uncertainty comes with some anxiety, and honesty recognized uncertainty. So, yes, the dishonesty of religion is designed to provide delusional certainty that likely quelled some anxieties that are now increasing, and some people self medicate to cope. But the net harm of that coping is far less than the net harm to social, moral, scientific, and political progress that is inherent to using the dogma of religion to suppress the truth that gives rise to that anxiety. Anxiety is another thing that is not inherently negative. It can be coped with in negative ways (like religion and drug abuse), but it exists b/c it is also functional and can motivate action to actually deal with the reality causing the anxiety rather than lie about it as religion does.

Some of the other problems you refer to have no meaningful connection to the demise of religion. They are spurious correlations resulting from things that are inherent to human success at populating the planet to the point where very large complex social systems must be negotiated among heterogeneous groups of people that have no personal daily connection to each other.

Meanwhile some of the other problems are being caused by religionists who are destructively reacting to the demise of their dominance. Others, are just growing pains and part of a transition period where religion created the problem by legitimizing a bogus question "What is the meaning of life?" then inventing an answer. As the answer is shown bogus, it leaves the question unanswered b/c we need to undue the delusion that the question itself is valid and recognize that there no "the meaning" b/c meaning exists only within our minds and thus whatever we choose to do is what your life means to you. This is tied to the problem that theism has polluted the concept of ethics and morality and promoted the illogical notion of objective morality that obscures the subjective desires at the heart of all ethics and misrepresents the real question of "what do we collectively want and how can we get it?" as "What does some authority want us to do?"