Minimum Wage Round 237...

[Nice Squirrel]

Best read when listening to:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4zNoxjUUyec

________________________

The Department of Labor has posted "Minimum Wage Mythbusters"
http://www.dol.gov/minwage/mythbuster.htm#.VDVr0R8CJUw.facebook

Myth: The federal minimum wage is higher today than it was when President Reagan took office.

Not true: While the federal minimum wage was only $3.35 per hour in 1981 and is currently $7.25 per hour in real dollars, when adjusted for inflation, the current federal minimum wage would need to be more than $8 per hour to equal its buying power of the early 1980s and more nearly $11 per hour to equal its buying power of the late 1960s. That's why President Obama is urging Congress to increase the federal minimum wage and give low-wage workers a much-needed boost.

 

[paulberry]

Interesting topic. In U.S, a break with most merchants Costco's CEO claims he supports President Obama's call to increase the minimum wage. But while the President wants to raise it to $9 an hour, Costco would let it go even greater, to $10.10 an hour. Well, most of short term loan can help you pay for things until you get a pay increase.

 

[Axulus]

Best read when listening to:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4zNoxjUUyec

________________________

The Department of Labor has posted "Minimum Wage Mythbusters"
http://www.dol.gov/minwage/mythbuster.htm#.VDVr0R8CJUw.facebook

Myth: The federal minimum wage is higher today than it was when President Reagan took office.

Not true: While the federal minimum wage was only $3.35 per hour in 1981 and is currently $7.25 per hour in real dollars, when adjusted for inflation, the current federal minimum wage would need to be more than $8 per hour to equal its buying power of the early 1980s and more nearly $11 per hour to equal its buying power of the late 1960s. That's why President Obama is urging Congress to increase the federal minimum wage and give low-wage workers a much-needed boost.

And how to prevent the unneeded boost to the unemployment rate of such individuals?

The policies the Democrats recommend seem to be leading us on the path to a three tier society:

-The unemployable who live off the dole for the rest of their lives, unable to hold on to a scarce minimum wage job, with opportunities driven down due to the high minimum wage and employers who have found ways to replace most minimum wage workers with technology. Who suffer from much higher rates of boredom and depression as a result of their feelings of worthlessness.

-The cognitive educated elite whose intelligence and education land them high paying jobs with multiple career paths and pay increases, highly valued in the technological and high skilled economy, contributing almost all the taxes that keeps the society funded and functional.

-The rest, who cling on to their minimum wage jobs with few job switching opportunities due to the scarcity of their job opportunities for fear of becoming one of the unemployable, who rarely quit unless they are one of the lucky ones who have a shot at becoming one of the cognitive educated elite.

 

[DBT]

There it is again, a certain class of people living in the richest country on earth are expected to tighten their belts and work for slave wages in order to prevent, shock, horror, an increase in unemployment levels (or a slight reduction in corporate profits)...which is not necessarily the case. How did businesses manage the higher rates of MW (adjusted for buying power) of the sixties? Were unemployment rates significantly higher back then?

 

[Axulus]

There it is again, a certain class of people living in the richest country on earth are expected to tighten their belts and work for slave wages in order to prevent, shock, horror, an increase in unemployment levels (or a slight reduction in corporate profits)...which is not necessarily the case. How did businesses manage the higher rates of MW (adjusted for buying power) of the sixties? Were unemployment rates significantly higher back then?

Are you saying there have been no significant changes in the world economy and technology (and there will continue to be nonsuch significant changes) that would result in a widening gap between the value of the labor between the cognitative educated individuals vs labor that can be performed by anyone nondisabled individual with a heartbeat that is inceasingly being replaced by automation? The minimum wage as a policy will become more and more obsolete as time goes on and the unemployment gap will continue to increase the more it is pushed as a policy tool to combat stagnating wages for such individuals.

 

[DBT]

There it is again, a certain class of people living in the richest country on earth are expected to tighten their belts and work for slave wages in order to prevent, shock, horror, an increase in unemployment levels (or a slight reduction in corporate profits)...which is not necessarily the case. How did businesses manage the higher rates of MW (adjusted for buying power) of the sixties? Were unemployment rates significantly higher back then?

Are you saying there have been no significant changes in the world economy and technology (and there will continue to be nonsuch significant changes) that would result in a widening gap between the value of the labor between the cognitative educated individuals vs labor that can be performed by anyone nondisabled individual with a heartbeat that is inceasingly being replaced by automation? The minimum wage as a policy will become more and more obsolete as time goes on and the unemployment gap will continue to increase the more it is pushed as a policy tool to combat stagnating wages for such individuals.

Of course there have been changes, but the basic human need (shelter, food, clothing and a meaningful lifestyle) of earning a living remain constant. Isn't that the point of a society, to benefit all of its members?

 

[Axulus]

Are you saying there have been no significant changes in the world economy and technology (and there will continue to be nonsuch significant changes) that would result in a widening gap between the value of the labor between the cognitative educated individuals vs labor that can be performed by anyone nondisabled individual with a heartbeat that is inceasingly being replaced by automation? The minimum wage as a policy will become more and more obsolete as time goes on and the unemployment gap will continue to increase the more it is pushed as a policy tool to combat stagnating wages for such individuals.

Of course there have been changes, but the basic human need (shelter, food, clothing and a meaningful lifestyle) of earning a living remain constant. Isn't that the point of a society, to benefit all of its members?

The minimum wage isn't the only option available to make sure individuals are able to meet those needs and benefit in society, nor, I would argue, among the best options.

 

[DBT]

Of course there have been changes, but the basic human need (shelter, food, clothing and a meaningful lifestyle) of earning a living remain constant. Isn't that the point of a society, to benefit all of its members?

The minimum wage isn't the only option available to make sure individuals are able to meet those needs and benefit in society, nor, I would argue, among the best options.

What are these better options?

 

[SimpleDon]

Of course there have been changes, but the basic human need (shelter, food, clothing and a meaningful lifestyle) of earning a living remain constant. Isn't that the point of a society, to benefit all of its members?

The minimum wage isn't the only option available to make sure individuals are able to meet those needs and benefit in society, nor, I would argue, among the best options.

Conservatives tell us that the only certain way is to give more tax cuts to the already wealthy. Is this one of your better options?

 

[Nice Squirrel]

The minimum wage isn't the only option available to make sure individuals are able to meet those needs and benefit in society, nor, I would argue, among the best options.

What are these better options?

Other than a larger welfare state, slavery, or euthanasia, I'd like to hear about these better options too. I am always supportive of better options.

 

[SimpleDon]

Best read when listening to:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4zNoxjUUyec

________________________

The Department of Labor has posted "Minimum Wage Mythbusters"
http://www.dol.gov/minwage/mythbuster.htm#.VDVr0R8CJUw.facebook

And how to prevent the unneeded boost to the unemployment rate of such individuals?

Only if you believe in the myth that an increase the minimum wage will result in increased unemployment.

Why do you believe that raising the minimum wage will result in an increase the unemployment rate. Do you believe that any increase in wages will result in increased unemployment or is the minimum wage somehow special?

In the real world an increase in wages reduces profits.

The policies the Democrats recommend seem to be leading us on the path to a three tier society:

-The unemployable who live off the dole for the rest of their lives, unable to hold on to a scarce minimum wage job, with opportunities driven down due to the high minimum wage and employers who have found ways to replace most minimum wage workers with technology. Who suffer from much higher rates of boredom and depression as a result of their feelings of worthlessness.

-The cognitive educated elite whose intelligence and education land them high paying jobs with multiple career paths and pay increases, highly valued in the technological and high skilled economy, contributing almost all the taxes that keeps the society funded and functional.

-The rest, who cling on to their minimum wage jobs with few job switching opportunities due to the scarcity of their job opportunities for fear of becoming one of the unemployable, who rarely quit unless they are one of the lucky ones who have a shot at becoming one of the cognitive educated elite.

No, this the dream of the elites, the corporations and the very wealthy. It is how we have been headed for the last thirty five years, it is the only possible result of the continuation of the neoliberal, supply side, Reaganomic policies that are designed to redistribute money to the already wealthy.

 

[SimpleDon]

Interesting topic. In U.S, a break with most merchants Costco's CEO claims he supports President Obama's call to increase the minimum wage. But while the President wants to raise it to $9 an hour, Costco would let it go even greater, to $10.10 an hour. Well, most of short term loan can help you pay for things until you get a pay increase.

Welcome paulberry to the forum.

You have jumped in to one of our most contentious of topics in which the vast majority of participants trot out their well rehearsed points that they don't seem to understand the economic theory that is behind the points.

For example, the increase in the minimum wage will drive the unemployment rate up because "If a worker costs more to hire employers will hire fewer of them." This is based not on supply and demand, but on the theory of marginal productivity, that employers hire the very last worker when his marginal product, the added production that he produces, the costs of which equals his wages. This theory is not only suspect on its own but even the people who support it admit that it only appliers when the economy is at full employment. But if the economy is at full employment there would be no reason to increase the minimum wage.

For the most part they have learned these points from their favorite bias confirming sources with little to no understanding of the logic, or in most cases, the lack of logic behind the points that they so readily endorse.

 

[SimpleDon]

Interesting topic. In U.S, a break with most merchants Costco's CEO claims he supports President Obama's call to increase the minimum wage. But while the President wants to raise it to $9 an hour, Costco would let it go even greater, to $10.10 an hour. Well, most of short term loan can help you pay for things until you get a pay increase.

I didn't address your point. The Obama proposal is to increase the minimum wage to $10.10 an hour in three equal steps over three years. It is possible that you only looked at about two years of the proposed increase. I think that the executive that you quoted was endorsing Obama's plan.

 

[coloradoatheist]

Interesting topic. In U.S, a break with most merchants Costco's CEO claims he supports President Obama's call to increase the minimum wage. But while the President wants to raise it to $9 an hour, Costco would let it go even greater, to $10.10 an hour. Well, most of short term loan can help you pay for things until you get a pay increase.

Welcome paulberry to the forum.

You have jumped in to one of our most contentious of topics in which the vast majority of participants trot out their well rehearsed points that don't seem to understand the economic theory that is behind the points.

For example, the increase in the minimum wage will drive the unemployment rate up because "If a worker costs more to hire employers will hire fewer of them." This is based not on supply and demand, but on the theory of marginal productivity, that employers hire the very last worker when his marginal product, the added production that he produces, the costs of which equals his wages. This theory is not only suspect on its own but even the people who support it admit that it only appliers when the economy is at full employment. But if the economy is at full employment there would be no reason to increase the minimum wage.

For the most part they have learned these points from their favorite bias confirming sources with little to no understanding of the logic, or in most cases, the lack of logic behind the points that they so readily endorse.

It's not based on the theory of marginal productivity. It's based on basic business. Cash in and cash out. You've increased cash out. So a business has to make the decision. Accept the less cash remaining (profit), increase cash in (raise prices) or go out of business (cash out greater than cash in). Which one of the three happens depends on the perceived changes in cash.

 

[dismal]

Interesting topic. In U.S, a break with most merchants Costco's CEO claims he supports President Obama's call to increase the minimum wage. But while the President wants to raise it to $9 an hour, Costco would let it go even greater, to $10.10 an hour. Well, most of short term loan can help you pay for things until you get a pay increase.

Welcome paulberry to the forum.

You have jumped in to one of our most contentious of topics in which the vast majority of participants trot out their well rehearsed points that they don't seem to understand the economic theory that is behind the points.

For example, the increase in the minimum wage will drive the unemployment rate up because "If a worker costs more to hire employers will hire fewer of them." This is based not on supply and demand, but on the theory of marginal productivity, that employers hire the very last worker when his marginal product, the added production that he produces, the costs of which equals his wages. This theory is not only suspect on its own but even the people who support it admit that it only appliers when the economy is at full employment. But if the economy is at full employment there would be no reason to increase the minimum wage.

For the most part they have learned these points from their favorite bias confirming sources with little to no understanding of the logic, or in most cases, the lack of logic behind the points that they so readily endorse.

What a pantload of crap.

The bizarre economics come in when you try to explain why a raise in minimum wage wouldn't reduce demand for unskilled labor.

 

[SimpleDon]

The problem that we are facing is one of low effective demand. It is not enough to have a high level of supply in the form of money available to invest. No one will invest in what we need to grow the economy, new production facilities if there isn't enough demand to keep the existing production facilities operating. The surplus of money just goes into building real asset bubbles in the stock market, in the commodities markets and in real estate. As we saw in 2008, these bubbles just destabilize the economy. They cause massive recessions when the bubbles pop.

We need more of the total income of the nation to go toward wages to increase demand and to decrease profits that harm the economy by destabilizing it. Increasing the minimum wage would be a good first step, but more would have to be done to increase wages besides this. Some of the Reaganomics policies will have to be rolled back also to restore some balance between wages and profits, between demand and supply.

 

[NobleSavage]

CBO stats
http://www.cbo.gov/publication/44995

 

[dismal]

If we artificially raise the price of broccoli it will put more cash in the hands of broccoli sellers. Broccoli sellers will in turn go out and spend that cash, which will raise the demand for broccoli!

Who sees the flaw(s) in that argument? Anyone? Anyone?

 

[ksen]

I see it! It's the part where you use an incredibly narrow segment to argue against an economy wide policy.

 

[coloradoatheist]

If we artificially raise the price of broccoli it will put more cash in the hands of broccoli sellers. Broccoli sellers will in turn go out and spend that cash, which will raise the demand for broccoli!

Who sees the flaw(s) in that argument? Anyone? Anyone?

That pesky thing called math?