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Minimum Wage Round 237...

I keep seeing this 'Mom and Pop"thing.What is it?10 employees?Less than 50?
From my experience minimum wage is not much of an issue for small businesses.They seem to pay way over minimum because it is better to retain good loyal people.Mom and Pop are killed by the Walmarts,because they do not have the buying power.If my boss orders 20 cases of Arizona do you think he will get the same price as the big boy gets?
 
I keep seeing this 'Mom and Pop"thing.What is it?10 employees?Less than 50?
From my experience minimum wage is not much of an issue for small businesses.They seem to pay way over minimum because it is better to retain good loyal people.Mom and Pop are killed by the Walmarts,because they do not have the buying power.If my boss orders 20 cases of Arizona do you think he will get the same price as the big boy gets?

If workers do not earn enough, they don't spend in the economy thus creating more jobs. If more jobs are created there should be (in theory) less government spending on social services. This is provided cheap labour is not fed to people outside the USA if there are US workers available.
n addition, work programs in exchange for unemployment benefit (except for the physically ill or severely disabled) will reduce the burden on the tax payer and allow support for those who really needed.

In addition a restriction on overseas workers will protect the jobs of US citizens. Overseas workers should be welcome on work permits providing a contract is in place and the salary is not less than what would be paid to a local worker. This is not racist. India, Pakistan, the UAE, Qatar, China and Hong Kong are examples of countries which impose restrictions on overseas recruitment except in certain cases such as underpaid English language teachers and housemaids in Hong Kong.

In countries like Hong Kong and China for instant the employers have to prove they tried to recruit locally before taking people from abroad.

In addition the loophole allowing research graduates to come over. when in fact they are low paid workers (e.g. IT) should be closed.
A limitation of 20 hours a week for a research graduate may help in this matter. However no matter what measures are in place such rules will frequently be violated.
 
Deflection, why would the multiple products matter, the product mix wouldn't change. Your argument is that raising the minimum wage causes unemployment in a very short time because of the increased costs. I assume that this means with the same product mix. My argument doesn't depend on making a single product

The point is that increasing the minimum wage may cause companies to cut back or drop products.

Do you believe that automation will displace the lowest paid workers because of a three dollar an hour raise in wages? If I was going to invest to automate jobs it would be to replace the highest paid workers, not the lowest paid ones. Your theories always seem to assume that businessmen are all stupid.

I am not assuming businessmen are stupid. I'm assuming they respond reasonably to market forces.

Highly paid workers are normally that way because of high skill levels--and thus rarely can be automated. Low skill workers, though, are another matter. Their jobs are disappearing right and left to automation.
 
Of course there have been changes, but the basic human need (shelter, food, clothing and a meaningful lifestyle) of earning a living remain constant. Isn't that the point of a society, to benefit all of its members?

The minimum wage isn't the only option available to make sure individuals are able to meet those needs and benefit in society, nor, I would argue, among the best options.

Yes, I agree. I would much prefer a guaranteed minimum income provided through a tax refund. Everybody gets a tax deduction of $x, and if you earn little enough, you wind up with a negative tax rate, and get that refund instead of paying anything into taxes. Meanwhile those who earn a lot still get that tax deduction from the taxes they pay in. I think this would be the simplest way to address the problem.
 
The point is that increasing the minimum wage may cause companies to cut back or drop products.

I am not assuming businessmen are stupid. I'm assuming they respond reasonably to market forces.

Not true. Evidence shows employment increases

Research Shows Minimum Wage Increases Do Not Cause Job Loss

http://www.businessforafairminimumw...-minimum-wage-increases-do-not-cause-job-loss

If they cut forces they are acting irrationally.

The overall unemployment rate has enough noise that it's basically impossible to see the effects.

Look at teen unemployment. Especially black teen unemployment. The minimum wage is doing exactly what it was originally designed to do--keep blacks out of the labor force.
 
Yes, let's look at teen unemployment and black teen unemployment... bring up the figures on how minimum wage affects it, like I asked for yesterday. Show us how historically raises in the minimum wage affects these groups. Should be easy since you keep bringing it up.
 
The minimum wage isn't the only option available to make sure individuals are able to meet those needs and benefit in society, nor, I would argue, among the best options.

Yes, I agree. I would much prefer a guaranteed minimum income provided through a tax refund. Everybody gets a tax deduction of $x, and if you earn little enough, you wind up with a negative tax rate, and get that refund instead of paying anything into taxes. Meanwhile those who earn a lot still get that tax deduction from the taxes they pay in. I think this would be the simplest way to address the problem.

Given that a tax return is payed once a year, how do low income earners manage their weekly expenses? A single annual payment may not be suitable for some people.

Also, that model appears to be using our tax money to subsidize firms that may have the capacity to pay their employees a decent wage, but choose to seize the opportunity to use tax dollars to increase their own profits, executive salaries and lurks and perks.
 
Yes, I agree. I would much prefer a guaranteed minimum income provided through a tax refund. Everybody gets a tax deduction of $x, and if you earn little enough, you wind up with a negative tax rate, and get that refund instead of paying anything into taxes. Meanwhile those who earn a lot still get that tax deduction from the taxes they pay in. I think this would be the simplest way to address the problem.

Given that a tax return is payed once a year, how do low income earners manage their weekly expenses? A single annual payment may not be suitable for some people.

Also, that model appears to be using our tax money to subsidize firms that may have the capacity to pay their employees a decent wage, but choose to seize the opportunity to use tax dollars to increase their own profits, executive salaries and lurks and perks.
It could be arranged so that the negative tax is paid in 12 or 26 or 52 installments.

I don't see how this could subsidize firms. If you pay it out to every person anyway so that their basic needs are met (or closely met), firms who don't pay a decent wage would have a harder time attracting people because it wouldn't be a matter of survival anymore.
 
I suggest you go to the wikipedia page for "minimum wage" they have a decent discussion about the economics of it there.

Is this where you get your economics from, Wikipedia?

So you have no other ability to support your own opinions. You don't know why you hold them. And you can't defend them.

You can swear at me but you can't answer a simple question

I obviously mistook you as being serious. Wikipedia.

You will not be surprised if I continue to mock you then will you?

Mock all you want. I'm not worried about people taking you seriously when you get the economics so wrong.

Of course, it would probably be better for you to read the article.
 
Supply-and-demand applies to labor just as to anything else bought and sold.

For example, the increase in the minimum wage will drive the unemployment rate up because "If a worker costs more to hire employers will hire fewer of them." This is based not on supply and demand, . . .

Yes it is based on supply-and-demand. I.e., the general principle that when the price of any commodity, including labor, increases, the buyers of that commodity respond by buying less of it in the future, i.e., less than they would have bought without the price increase, all else being equal.

If in some cases the buyers actually buy MORE of the commodity than before, after the price increase, it's because they would have bought more anyway, because of other factors, and the impact of the price increase, i.e., impact on the buyers, is that their increased buying of the commodity is reduced, so that the increase in their buying becomes a smaller increase than it would have been if there had not been a price increase.

And for this reason, an artificially-higher wage, such as increased minimum wage, causes reduced employment levels from what they would have been without the increase.


. . . but on the theory of marginal productivity, that employers hire the very last worker when his marginal product, the added production that he produces . . . equals his wages.

Perhaps, but it's simpler to just say that as the wage is artificially propped up higher and higher, the ratio of the worker's production to his cost decreases so that his value to the economy decreases.

Just as with any other commodity -- as its cost increases while the benefit of it remains the same, the total net value of it decreases and the buyers want less and less of it.
 
Loren Pechtel said:
Look at teen unemployment. Especially black teen unemployment. The minimum wage is doing exactly what it was originally designed to do--keep blacks out of the labor force.
Yes, let's look at teen unemployment and black teen unemployment... bring up the figures on how minimum wage affects it, like I asked for yesterday. Show us how historically raises in the minimum wage affects these groups. Should be easy since you keep bringing it up.

.......crickets..........tumbleweed............
 
...crickets...


- Finally and most definitively, a recent study by economists at the University of California and
the University of Massachusetts examined every state and federal minimum wage increase
over the past two decades and found that they did not lead to declines in teen employment. Their analysis included an
in-depth examination of minimum wage increases during times of high unemployment - including the Great Recession
of 2007 to 2009 — and found that even during these difficult economic periods when unemployment for both adults and
teens spiked, increases in the minimum wage did not exacerbate job losses or slow rehiring.

- Equally important, the new study demonstrates how a body of previous research
(one frequently relied on by business lobbyists who oppose minimum wage increases) inaccurately attributes
declines in employment to increases in the minimum wage. It shows how those studies ignore major differences in
job markets such as varying regional growth rates for low-wage jobs. When analyses control for these important
factors, the claimed job losses disappear.

- Black teen unemployment has always been dramatically higher than overall teen unemployment.
African-American teen unemployment hit 43 percent in 2010, a level not seen since the
recession of the early 1980s. Unfortunately, this shocking rate of unemployment is consistent
with our nation’s long-term racial gap in unemployment.Since the U.S. Department of Labor
began keeping statistics in 1972, the black teen unemployment rate has ranged from 1.6 to
2.4 times the overall teen unemployment rate. In 2010, the black teen unemployment rate of
43percent was 1.7 times the overall teen unemployment rate of 25.9 percent — well withinthat range.
The problem of extreme unemployment among black youth is a persistent one
that our nation has failed to adequately address for decades, but the evidence does not
suggest that the minimum wage is driving or exacerbating it in any way.

source
 
Why do we make an exception for volunteer work?

What benefits of minimum wage law do not also apply to volunteers working for a charity? Why shouldn't those workers be paid from donations instead of being exploited for free?
 
Why do you care about minimum wage?Will an increase really effect you?How much more will your big mac cost you?$1,$.50,$.25,$.15?
SNAP cost you tax dollars.
Medicaid cost you tax dollars.
If the person feeding you made $12/hr he would buy more of your stuff.THUS more fucking JOBS!
 
Why do we make an exception for volunteer work?

What benefits of minimum wage law do not also apply to volunteers working for a charity? Why shouldn't those workers be paid from donations instead of being exploited for free?
I have no problem with a tax write off for volunteer labor.
 
Why do you care about minimum wage?Will an increase really effect you?How much more will your big mac cost you?$1,$.50,$.25,$.15?
SNAP cost you tax dollars.
Medicaid cost you tax dollars.
If the person feeding you made $12/hr he would buy more of your stuff.THUS more fucking JOBS!

With as little as corporations pay in taxes it probably doesn't affect them that much if they are able to shift a significant portion of their labor costs onto taxpayers.
 
Why do only Left-Wing sources know of these "studies"?

...crickets...


- Finally and most definitively, a recent study by economists at the University of California and the University of Massachusetts examined every state and federal minimum wage increase over the past two decades and found that they did not lead to declines in teen employment. Their analysis included an in-depth examination of minimum wage increases during times of high unemployment - including the Great Recession of 2007 to 2009 — and found that even during these difficult economic periods when unemployment for both adults and teens spiked, increases in the minimum wage did not exacerbate job losses or slow rehiring.

- Equally important, the new study demonstrates how a body of previous research
(one frequently relied on by business lobbyists who oppose minimum wage increases) inaccurately attributes
declines in employment to increases in the minimum wage. It shows how those studies ignore major differences in
job markets such as varying regional growth rates for low-wage jobs. When analyses control for these important
factors, the claimed job losses disappear.

- Black teen unemployment has always been dramatically higher than overall teen unemployment.
African-American teen unemployment hit 43 percent in 2010, a level not seen since the
recession of the early 1980s. Unfortunately, this shocking rate of unemployment is consistent
with our nation’s long-term racial gap in unemployment.Since the U.S. Department of Labor
began keeping statistics in 1972, the black teen unemployment rate has ranged from 1.6 to
2.4 times the overall teen unemployment rate. In 2010, the black teen unemployment rate of
43percent was 1.7 times the overall teen unemployment rate of 25.9 percent — well withinthat range.
The problem of extreme unemployment among black youth is a persistent one
that our nation has failed to adequately address for decades, but the evidence does not
suggest that the minimum wage is driving or exacerbating it in any way.

source


As always, the sources for these claims are Left-wing pro-labor-union think tanks which we have no reason to believe. They're just telling the mob what it wants to hear.

Virtually all claims of "data" to prove what the impact of minimum wage is on unemployment are dishonest.

The only case where there is empirical evidence of how MW impacts the economy is that of Samoa, where the MW increase had enough impact on the economy that it could be measured.

All other cases are inconclusive. There are equal studies pro and con, depending upon the bias of the "researchers" or ideologues and the think tanks/publications that pay them and tell them what results to find.

The only conclusion to draw is that the impact is very small during the first few months following a MW increase.

None of the "studies" ever analyzes the impact beyond a year or so, which is one reason why such "studies" are so irrelevant.

The reason there is some "evidence" showing that MW does no harm to employment numbers is that the public is extremely biased in favor of MW and craves to be told this.

When the clamoring mob wants to hear something badly enough, there's always going to be a few "experts" who will answer the call and tell them what they want to hear.

Here's the test for whether the "research" or "study" is biased: Look for MAINLINE sources to see if they confirm the "data" in question.

On this topic, a good mainline source is PBS and Paul Solman. Or NPR and "Marketplace" and other programs like that.

Other reliable sources are the mainline networks, like CNN, BBC, etc. (not the commentators, but the news) also the History Channel and National Geographic Channel.

E.g., these sources all confirm the real problem of global warming, for which there is reliable evidence, even though it's controversial and there is alleged "data" refuting it. But none of them ever present the "studies" proving what the impact of minimum wage is. If there were any reliable "studies" on this, it would be presented by a mainline source such as the above.

For your minimum wage "data" or "empirical studies" to be taken seriously, they have to also be supported by mainline sources, and not always be Left-wing pro-labor propaganda sources, which is what all these sources are who claim that there are "studies" proving that minimum wage has no adverse impact on the unemployment numbers.

The same is true of the claims made against minimum wage increases. There are no "studies" or "data" on either side of this debate (claiming to have proved what the impact on employment is) that are supported by mainline sources.
 
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