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Minimum Wage Round 237...

...crickets...


As always, the sources for these claims are Left-wing pro-labor-union think tanks which we have no reason to believe. They're just telling the mob what it wants to hear.

Virtually all claims of "data" to prove what the impact of minimum wage is on unemployment are dishonest.

Stop me if I'm wrong, but would that be claim of a Right-wing anti-labor-union think tank which we have no reason to believe? Someone just telling you what you want to hear?

But none of them ever present the "studies" proving what the impact of minimum wage is...

The same is true of the claims made against minimum wage increases. There are no "studies" or "data" on either side of this debate (claiming to have proved what the impact on employment is) that are supported by mainline sources.

So... if there are no studies that support either side of the debate, as you claim, then what is your violent opposition to an increase in the minimum wage based on?
 
So... if there are no studies that support either side of the debate, as you claim, then what is your violent opposition to an increase in the minimum wage based on?

Bullshit sprinkled with libertarian fairy dust?
 
Empirical "studies" are OK, but only if they come from non-biased non-propaganda sources.

The point is that increasing the minimum wage may cause companies to cut back or drop products.

I am not assuming businessmen are stupid. I'm assuming they respond reasonably to market forces.

Not true. Evidence shows employment increases

Research Shows Minimum Wage Increases Do Not Cause Job Loss

http://www.businessforafairminimumw...-minimum-wage-increases-do-not-cause-job-loss

If they cut forces they are acting irrationally.

Why should we believe these Left-wing pro-labor think tanks and publications, which is what every source listed here is. There is nothing wrong with being an ideologue, but why should we accept their "facts" on faith? The only sources for the above "research" are all Left-Wing pro-labor propaganda sources.

These left-wing ideologues need to stop pretending they have all this empirical "data" that proves their talking points. They do not have any reliable "data" on this. We have good reason not to trust the "data" provided by these biased sources.

Most of them just keep quoting the Card-Krueger "research" which did not prove anything, and they misrepresent C-K's real findings (or lack of findings).

Numerous careful economic studies, including ones by David Card and Alan Krueger, have shown that increasing the minimum wage has no negative effect on employment.

The Card-Krueger studies did not show any such thing.

What C-K does is give tons and tons of data that show only one thing, which is that it is difficult to determine the impact of small increases in MW, and C-K was unable to determine the impact.

All C-K can claim is that they could not identify in their tons of data any negative effect of minimum wage on employment levels. Not being able to find a negative effect is not the same as showing "no negative effect."

They give a huge barrage of data and pretend that because there is so much data, surely any negative impact from MW would show up in it. But they consistently omit important variables. (And most "studies" pro-and-con on MW ignore major variables.)

They ignore the impact of employers switching to independent contractors.

They cite employment numbers which ignore employers switching more to part-time workers, who are categorized as "employed" in the official employment numbers. (The "studies" ignore whether employers respond to MW by switching from full-time to part-time hiring.)

They ignore the government (local or state) enacting more infrastructure programs, more pork programs, more corporate welfare, and more jobs programs. All these (whether they are a legitimate spending program or not) increase the employment numbers and are more likely to take place in those jurisdictions which also increase the minimum wage.

They ignore the impact of MW increase other than in the first few months, or the first year, after the MW increase, totally ignoring the impact on the economy 5 or 10 or 15 years later, when the MW increase may have a greater impact.

They exclude the variable of workers dropping out of the labor force as a result of MW increase (mostly desperate job-seekers and chronically-unemployed who figure a low-wage job is the best they can get). Such drop-out then skews the unemployment numbers because those who drop out are no longer included in the labor force, and so are not counted as "unemployed" and so the true "unemployed" number is higher than the official number.

The "studies" showing MW does no harm always come from Left-wing pro-labor think tanks who crank out this "data" for the labor unions to use as propaganda. And they always ignore variables like those listed above. All they have proved is that the negative impact from MW is generally too small to measure, because the increases are not large enough or the workers impacted are only a tiny minority of the workforce.

We have good reason not to believe these ideologues and their "findings." We should be equally skeptical of "findings" from right-wing or pro-business think tanks which claim to have "data" that MW hurts employment numbers. There is no conclusive data (except in the case of Samoa where there was a significant impact from increasing the MW.)

The sum total negative impact of MW over many years, decades, may be significant, but from one single MW increase there is no significant impact, and those claiming they've measured it and proved the impact of it empirically are just propagandizing.

The following quote from the above cited "research" illustrates why we cannot trust these sources:

Recent research has even suggested that higher wages can increase employment, because they increase employers’ ability to attract, retain, and motivate workers.
http://clinton4.nara.gov/media/pdf/minwagereport000208.pdf

This is dishonest because it insinuates that some "recent research" has uncovered something new here, which is nonsense. Everybody knows -- all businesses have known for centuries -- that higher wages can produce the above benefits to a company, and because of this, companies do increase wages when it's appropriate, without needing any law passed to force them to do it.

It's dishonest to imply that some "recent research" has discovered this. There is no integrity or objectivity or scientific reliability about sources that propagandize this way, implying that there are "studies" or "research" that prove what they are promoting.

These "sources" are just pandering to labor unions and to the sentiment of the general public who sympathize on an emotional level with wage-earners, because the vast majority of producers are wage-earners and it's so easy to scapegoat and beat up on the minority who are employers. All the sources listed here make their profit pandering to labor unions and telling them what they want to hear.

Once again, find a MAINLINE source that gives your "studies" in their reporting, such as Paul Solman on PBS. Solman has done several reports on minimum wage and presents the pro-minimum-wage side more than the anti-minimum-wage side, presenting the argument on how MW has not kept up with inflation. But he does not confirm any of the "studies" that prove what the impact of minimum wage increases are on unemployment levels, even though there's a lot of noise about these "studies" from the propagandists and politicians and crusaders on both sides. If these "studies" were reliable, they would be presented by the mainline sources and not only the propagandists.
 
Is there really an honest debate that increases in minimum wage results in job losses? This is from the CBO on the present discussion to raise the federal minimum wage:

44995-land-table1b.png


2014 Report - http://www.cbo.gov/publication/44995

It's like gas; when the price goes up people buy less of it and look for ways to avoid using it. This is not to say that the minimum wage should not go up from time to time to account for inflation. But the supposed benefit of an increase ought to be weighed against the size of the anticipated job losses.
 
Empirical "studies" are not the source of all our knowledge.

As always, the sources for these claims are Left-wing pro-labor-union think tanks which we have no reason to believe. They're just telling the mob what it wants to hear.

Virtually all claims of "data" to prove what the impact of minimum wage is on unemployment are dishonest.

Stop me if I'm wrong, but would that be claim of a Right-wing anti-labor-union think tank which we have no reason to believe? Someone just telling you what you want to hear?

We should not trust the "data" on this from those sources either. However, we do have one case of a minimum wage increase which led to disastrous consequences, which is the case of Samoa. And everyone, including the Democrats and pro-labor forces, had to admit, with tears in their eyes, that this minimum wage increase was bad for the economy.

So in the one case where there is reliable evidence, the case is clear that minimum wage increases do damage to the employment level.

So... if there are no studies that support either side of the debate, as you claim, then what is your violent opposition to an increase in the minimum wage based on?

We don't always need "studies" to tell us what the truth is. If there are reliable studies with good information we should rely on them, but we frequently know the truth without "studies" to tell us.

In fact we have many examples of such truth, which are commonly recognized.

Have you heard of forecasts of the higher prices that will take place when there is crop damage due to bad weather? Higher price of corn because of the drought, or higher price of oranges due to a frost?

There is usually no "data" to prove that there will be higher prices, or that bad weather conditions caused higher prices for the products.

These forecasts are based on supply-and-demand theory, not on "data" to prove any causal connection. Perhaps if the drought or the frost is very extreme and a huge percent of the crop is wiped out there is some "data" to base the numbers on. However, if only one ton of oranges is lost to bad weather, there is no "data" to prove that this will lead to higher prices, though we know there must be an incremental upward movement of price.

And usually there is insufficient "data" to prove such forecasts as these. Nonetheless we know that a loss of crops like this leads to higher prices. And the experts are reliable to make these estimates of the losses. Probably they're off the mark in many cases. But they're right to predict the higher prices.

And likewise there are many more economic facts we know without needing special "studies" or "data" to make it known to us. However, when "data" is available we can fill in the details or have a more exact measure of what we already know is the case.

There is no "data" or "empirical evidence" to contradict our knowledge from supply-and-demand that when the price of something, e.g., labor, goes up, with no increase in the quality of it, the buyers of it will demand less in the future, all else being equal.

We also don't have "data" to prove that the current bad weather conditions are due to global warming or climate change caused by human activity. But there is good reason/science upon which to base these fears and some steps to take to curb the CO2 emissions.
 
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