Minimum Wage

[Bronzeage]

Minimum wage jobs are not meant to be living wage career jobs. Does anyone really think that you should be able to support a family working the drive through window at McDonalds? Some jobs are very low skill and really should be high turn over. These jobs are an entry to the workforce. These jobs are necessary for people to enter the workforce, for companies to staff high turn over positions. The positions should be high turn over, as no one should want to spend a career in a minimum wage job.

Perhaps McDonald's should create a church and proselytize to gather a flock of celibate workers who will sacrifice the pursuit of happiness, so that hamburgers maybe profitably sold at a price which will increase shareholder value.

 

[ksen]

Is it fair to have the government supplement employers by allowing them to pay people such a small amount of money that their employees end up being dependent on social programs supplied by government? Don't businesses already have tax advantages that help them maintain their businesses? Shouldn't they pay their employees enough money to keep them free from depending on government programs to help them survive?

1) Most minimum wage workers aren't the primary breadwinner in their household.

2) They would exist and need money to live on whether the job existed or not. The company did not create the situation, they are not responsible for it.

Actually the capital class did create this situation through the goverment policies they've been buying since Reagan.

 

[horhangi]

Minimum wage jobs are not meant to be living wage career jobs. Does anyone really think that you should be able to support a family working the drive through window at McDonalds? Some jobs are very low skill and really should be high turn over. These jobs are an entry to the workforce. These jobs are necessary for people to enter the workforce, for companies to staff high turn over positions. The positions should be high turn over, as no one should want to spend a career in a minimum wage job.

Perhaps McDonald's should create a church and proselytize to gather a flock of celibate workers who will sacrifice the pursuit of happiness, so that hamburgers maybe profitably sold at a price which will increase shareholder value.

Or perhaps we recognize that people entering the workforce need to learn the skills of being in the workforce, and that those jobs are, or should be transitory. A job at Mc Donald's working the register is not a career and should not be treated as one. It is a job that serves as an entertainer to the workforce. The turnover for these jobs should be hi, they are not meant to be careers.
As I noted in my original post there are also entry level jobs that can be careers. High school students can while in school attain the certification to get a job that is considered a professional position. Raising the minimum wage for the people who work the entry level jobs drives up the wage for those who have entry level professional opportunities. As the minimum wage in Ca rises to 15$ there will be consequences on those high school students who want to start their working career with a job that is considered professional. As I believe I said in the opening post new lifeguards in my city make about 13$/ hr. If the minimum wage rises to 15&/hr, the wage for these guards will need to rise to 19$ or more. To do this the services provided will need to raise their fees, and fewer lifeguards will be hired as usage decreases due to raised fees. I use this as a specific example of the consequences of raising the minimum wage.
The minimum wage should be an entry level wage, not a career level wage. Or to quite a line I once heard, " if you are 30 and still making minimum wage, somewhere you have failed at life."

 

[ksen]

Why shouldn't cashier be a career if that's what the person enjoys doing?

 

[horhangi]

Why shouldn't cashier be a career if that's what the person enjoys doing?

Fine make it your career, but understand it is an entry level position and the pay is going to reflect that. Just don't expect that you are going to raise a family, buy a house on the wage of an entry level position.

 

[Bronzeage]

Perhaps McDonald's should create a church and proselytize to gather a flock of celibate workers who will sacrifice the pursuit of happiness, so that hamburgers maybe profitably sold at a price which will increase shareholder value.

Or perhaps we recognize that people entering the workforce need to learn the skills of being in the workforce, and that those jobs are, or should be transitory. A job at Mc Donald's working the register is not a career and should not be treated as one. It is a job that serves as an entertainer to the workforce. The turnover for these jobs should be hi, they are not meant to be careers.
As I noted in my original post there are also entry level jobs that can be careers. High school students can while in school attain the certification to get a job that is considered a professional position. Raising the minimum wage for the people who work the entry level jobs drives up the wage for those who have entry level professional opportunities. As the minimum wage in Ca rises to 15$ there will be consequences on those high school students who want to start their working career with a job that is considered professional. As I believe I said in the opening post new lifeguards in my city make about 13$/ hr. If the minimum wage rises to 15&/hr, the wage for these guards will need to rise to 19$ or more. To do this the services provided will need to raise their fees, and fewer lifeguards will be hired as usage decreases due to raised fees. I use this as a specific example of the consequences of raising the minimum wage.
The minimum wage should be an entry level wage, not a career level wage. Or to quite a line I once heard, " if you are 30 and still making minimum wage, somewhere you have failed at life."

Why would the wages of lifeguards go up to $19/hr. Will the rise in minimum wage create a shortage of lifeguards?

 

[Ford]

Why shouldn't cashier be a career if that's what the person enjoys doing?

Fine make it your career, but understand it is an entry level position and the pay is going to reflect that. Just don't expect that you are going to raise a family, buy a house on the wage of an entry level position.

This makes me think of the receptionist at our office. Or as she's been called, our "director of first impressions."

It is an entry-level position, but she's been there in that chair for over 10 years. Everybody that has come to our office over the last decade knows her. I don't know how much she makes, but after a decade of regular raises she's doing far better than "entry level" and has accumulated benefits that are pretty generous.

That's her career. That's what she does. She's managed to turn an "entry level" job into something that is a living. Could we replace her with a cheaper employee? Sure. I'm sure that if a new company took over they'd look at her and ask "why are you paying this person so much to fill this entry level job?" and they'd be justified in asking that question.

The answer is that she's earned her wage. She's not just the best receptionist we could hope for, but her decade of service to the company warrants her pay.


That's the thing. Minimum wage is a jumping-off point. If you start at a company earning minimum wage and work your way up the pay scale by sheer bloody-minded dedication, then you've earned it. I think that our receptionist deserves her compensation, even though her job could be filled by someone for a third the cost.

 

[DBT]

Not everyone has the capacity to progress to a management position. Not everyone has the desire to progress to a management position. There are far fewer management positions than there are aspirants for those positions. There appears to be no limit to the pay scale on offer for upper management positions. The idea of entry level jobs may be good and fine, but there is no reason why the share of the pie can't be more reasonably distributed for productive work carried out and time expended....except that business is not willing to pay more to ordinary workers than they can get away with in order to maximize profits and pay generous salaries with bonuses to their executives.

 

[ksen]

Why shouldn't cashier be a career if that's what the person enjoys doing?

Fine make it your career, but understand it is an entry level position and the pay is going to reflect that. Just don't expect that you are going to raise a family, buy a house on the wage of an entry level position.

Oh, part of the Scrooge-did-nothing-wrong contingent?

 

[horhangi]

Or perhaps we recognize that people entering the workforce need to learn the skills of being in the workforce, and that those jobs are, or should be transitory. A job at Mc Donald's working the register is not a career and should not be treated as one. It is a job that serves as an entertainer to the workforce. The turnover for these jobs should be hi, they are not meant to be careers.
As I noted in my original post there are also entry level jobs that can be careers. High school students can while in school attain the certification to get a job that is considered a professional position. Raising the minimum wage for the people who work the entry level jobs drives up the wage for those who have entry level professional opportunities. As the minimum wage in Ca rises to 15$ there will be consequences on those high school students who want to start their working career with a job that is considered professional. As I believe I said in the opening post new lifeguards in my city make about 13$/ hr. If the minimum wage rises to 15&/hr, the wage for these guards will need to rise to 19$ or more. To do this the services provided will need to raise their fees, and fewer lifeguards will be hired as usage decreases due to raised fees. I use this as a specific example of the consequences of raising the minimum wage.
The minimum wage should be an entry level wage, not a career level wage. Or to quite a line I once heard, " if you are 30 and still making minimum wage, somewhere you have failed at life."

Why would the wages of lifeguards go up to $19/hr. Will the rise in minimum wage create a shortage of lifeguards?

Yes the rise in the minimum wage will create a shortage of lifeguards at the minimum wage. In Ca they are considered first responders, there are state mandated training and certification requirements. That is why it pays more than minimum wage. There will be a shortage of people willing to go through the training and certification if they can get the same pay for manning the drive through at the local burger joint. There is already a shortage as minimum wage has been rising and the city has not had the budget to raise pay. That shortage will increase as min wage rises.

 

[Alcoholic Actuary]

The minimum wage was, in my understanding never meant to be a wage to raise a family on, at least not in my lifetime. I have worked a minimum wage job for 6 months in my life. Minimum wage jobs are supposed to be an entry level job into the workforce, to a career.
A little history of me: I took classes my senior year In high school and stupidly took the first job offered as a lifeguard I was offered. Minimum wage at the time was about 3.2. I started work that summer at 6$ an hour. School started and my summer job was gone, but I found off season employment as lifeguard for about 5$ and hour. The only problem I had was hours were limited, so I found a second job, at minimum wage, then about 3.50$ an hour. That minimum wage job, at a movie theater raised my pay in 6 months to 3.75$ an hour. After 6 months the basic skills of working all positions were assumed to have been learned and so pay increased.
Those 6 months I worked at 3.50/hour are the only time I worked for minimum wage ever. That is what minimum wage is supposed to be: an entry level wage into the job market. Minimum wage is not intended to be a living wage, it is an entry level wage for the least skilled to enter the job market and learn the skills.
As an aside to the current 15$/hr minimum wage drive...this is going to kill above minimum wage jobs that are available to young but trained high school students and graduates. I worked for a city as a lifeguard, that city had the highest pay for lifeguards in the county aside from beaches. The current starting pay for a guard is 13$/ hr. Minimum wage in my state is currently 10.50$/ hr.
Minimum wage in my state is set to rise to 15$/ hr. This must drive up the pay for entry level lifeguards. Why? Lifeguards, even the 16 year old teaching your child to swim and the 16 year old sitting in the chair watching those lessons are professionals. They have mandated levels of training and certification which must be maintained, training which must be conducted during employment, legal requirements to provide aid and are by law first responders. It is an entry level opportunity to a professional career even if used as a step to another career, which is what most do.
A raise in the minimum wage, results in a necessary raise in the wage of these jobs. The city I worked for, like many others is dealing with budget shortfalls and staff reductions. Raising the minimum wage to 15$/hr requires raising the wages of everyone. To pay for that requires raising the price of the services provided, which really offsets the benefit of raising the minimum wage. Further raising the minimum wage will result in fewer 16year olds being hired to work in a job that can be their introduction into professional work.
This has been a ramble, sorry.

Minimum wage has certainly lagged behind inflation. Why did you get to 'start out' at a wage level that was 80 or 90% of a living wage, but today kids have to start out at 50-60% of a living wage? Why is that fair?

aa

 

[Trausti]

The minimum wage was, in my understanding never meant to be a wage to raise a family on, at least not in my lifetime. I have worked a minimum wage job for 6 months in my life. Minimum wage jobs are supposed to be an entry level job into the workforce, to a career.
A little history of me: I took classes my senior year In high school and stupidly took the first job offered as a lifeguard I was offered. Minimum wage at the time was about 3.2. I started work that summer at 6$ an hour. School started and my summer job was gone, but I found off season employment as lifeguard for about 5$ and hour. The only problem I had was hours were limited, so I found a second job, at minimum wage, then about 3.50$ an hour. That minimum wage job, at a movie theater raised my pay in 6 months to 3.75$ an hour. After 6 months the basic skills of working all positions were assumed to have been learned and so pay increased.
Those 6 months I worked at 3.50/hour are the only time I worked for minimum wage ever. That is what minimum wage is supposed to be: an entry level wage into the job market. Minimum wage is not intended to be a living wage, it is an entry level wage for the least skilled to enter the job market and learn the skills.
As an aside to the current 15$/hr minimum wage drive...this is going to kill above minimum wage jobs that are available to young but trained high school students and graduates. I worked for a city as a lifeguard, that city had the highest pay for lifeguards in the county aside from beaches. The current starting pay for a guard is 13$/ hr. Minimum wage in my state is currently 10.50$/ hr.
Minimum wage in my state is set to rise to 15$/ hr. This must drive up the pay for entry level lifeguards. Why? Lifeguards, even the 16 year old teaching your child to swim and the 16 year old sitting in the chair watching those lessons are professionals. They have mandated levels of training and certification which must be maintained, training which must be conducted during employment, legal requirements to provide aid and are by law first responders. It is an entry level opportunity to a professional career even if used as a step to another career, which is what most do.
A raise in the minimum wage, results in a necessary raise in the wage of these jobs. The city I worked for, like many others is dealing with budget shortfalls and staff reductions. Raising the minimum wage to 15$/hr requires raising the wages of everyone. To pay for that requires raising the price of the services provided, which really offsets the benefit of raising the minimum wage. Further raising the minimum wage will result in fewer 16year olds being hired to work in a job that can be their introduction into professional work.
This has been a ramble, sorry.

Minimum wage has certainly lagged behind inflation. Why did you get to 'start out' at a wage level that was 80 or 90% of a living wage, but today kids have to start out at 50-60% of a living wage? Why is that fair?

aa

Why is it fair that the youth today have a much harder time getting their first job, and the long-term positive work habits it engenders, than you? Is lifting the ladder from them an acceptable cost so the do-gooders can feel self-righteous?

https://www.csmonitor.com/Business/2017/0720/Summer-jobs-for-teens-wane-even-as-research-finds-big-benefits

 

[Loren Pechtel]

It was created to deny jobs to blacks.

Well?

Go on...? Surely there's a story here.

It was created explicitly to chop the bottom off the ladder so the lowest level workers (the blacks) were kept out. It still chops the bottom off the ladder although the motives do not appear racist anymore.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Reality: about 1% of the American workforce works for minimum wage. That's consistent with it being an entry job.

My first job was minimum wage, also--an on-campus job

This doesn't paint a pretty picture of income distribution for a wealthy country.


''According to the U.S. Census Bureau, the average household income was $73,298 in 2014, the latest year for which complete data is available. However, this doesn't tell the whole story. Depending on your family situation and where you live, average household income can vary dramatically''

Household Income (AGI) Percent of Households With Lower AGI

$2,000. 9%

$4,000 6.8%

$6,000 9.8%

$8,000 12.7%

$10,000 16.2%

$12,000 19.5%

$14,000 22.8%

$16,000 26%

$18,000 29.2%

$20,000 32.1%

$25,000 38.9%

$30,000 44.8%

$40,000 54.6%

$50,000 62.4%

$75,000 75.4%

$100,000 84%

$200,000 95.8%

$500,000 99.2%

$1,000,000 99.7%

$1,500,000 99.8%

$2,000,000 99.9%


https://www.fool.com/retirement/2016/10/30/

Big problem with this data: 3/4 of the difference disappears if you look at hours worked rather than household AGI. Everyone in the lowest quarter of this is there due to hours worked.

 

[southernhybrid]

As I said earlier, most of you don't seem to have interacted closely with many poor people. The workers I know that make the minimum wage aren't all capable of doing anything but what some of you seem to refer to as an entry level jobs. There are many people who aren't smart enough, haven't had access to an education that teaches them the skills to obtain a higher paying job, etc.

And Bomb totally missed my point about employers and how their refusal to pay a more substantial wage, causes their employees to become dependent on government programs to subsidize their wages. This is more like a subsidy for businesses, since the low wage offered is not enough to support an individual. If the employer in a labor intense business, like assisted living facilities, doesn't have competent employees, the business will fail. The survival of the business is not only dependent on the residents who rent the rooms, but it also depends on the employees who care for the residents. Since one must be at least 21 years of age, and pass a literacy test as well as a proxy caregiver's exam, this job isn't really what I would call entry level. But I digress. Imo, these care givers are very important to those who are dependent and in need of this type of care. If the employer doesn't value the worth of the employees, then government should establish a minimum wage that employers must provide, so, if nothing else, their employees will become a lot less dependent on government programs that we all pay for with our taxes. Perhaps exceptions could be made for small start up businesses with very few employees. Those jobs may truly be entry level or they me jobs that are attractive to older retired adults.

The current minimum wage at the federal level hasn't kept up with inflation and hasn't even been raised in many years. One actually could live simply on the minimum wage back in the 70s. When my first husband and I married in 1970, he worked in a minimum wage job. We had a small modest apartment, plenty of food and adequate clothing. He had a college degree in biology so this was an entry level job for him, but for others, it was a career.

There is no justification for the massive extremes of wealth that have infested the US. There is no good reason for a CEO to be compensated 300 times greater than the average employee. History tells us that these extremes of wealth have a negative impact on the quality of life for the majority of a country's citizens. Having a minimum wage that allows people to at least be able to afford basic shelter, food and clothing at the bare minimum, makes sense from both a moral and pragmatic perspective. It's as simple as that. It's way past time to act.

 

[Jason Harvestdancer]

The only time people are actively disinterested in original reasons for something is when they already know those original reasons but don't want that information to spread. In the case of minimum wage I can see why.

The rational for maintaining a rule or law can change when the situation changes.

For example, many racists embrace libertarianism because it gives them a philosophical foundation for allowing the private sector to engage in discrimination.

And many racists embrace progressivism because it gives them a way to actively express their racist opinions without shame.

 

[laughing dog]

Minimum wage has certainly lagged behind inflation. Why did you get to 'start out' at a wage level that was 80 or 90% of a living wage, but today kids have to start out at 50-60% of a living wage? Why is that fair?

aa

Why is it fair that the youth today have a much harder time getting their first job, and the long-term positive work habits it engenders, than you? Is lifting the ladder from them an acceptable cost so the do-gooders can feel self-righteous?

https://www.csmonitor.com/Business/2017/0720/Summer-jobs-for-teens-wane-even-as-research-finds-big-benefits

Do you have any actual data that shows the changes in the minimum wage cause unemployment among youth to rise?

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

Why was the minimum wage implemented to begin with? When you have a minimum wage period, the implicit stance you make is that we (The USA) have an interest in assuring wage equitability for people who work. The important thing is that WE decide what is and is not equitable.

The other problem is that by shifting the focus of people not having enough to one of employment and wage level, the unemployed are left out and forgotten. Minimum wage, mandatory employer paying of medical benefits, etc do nothing to help those truly the most in need, who fall through the cracks. This is why universal single payer health care and universal basic income are essential.

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

Don't businesses already have tax advantages that help them maintain their businesses? Shouldn't they pay their employees enough money to keep them free from depending on government programs to help them survive?

I think you are looking at this backwards. If cost of living is higher than an employer's work is worth to employers then that is a social problem that we should address. Lowering cost of living through social programs and subsidies, universal health care, universal basic income, along with education programs to get skills up so labour is worth more to employers, etc is the way forward.

The employers will be paying for much of this through taxes on their profits, and others, such as the idle rich and companies who don't hire employees (paying zero wages) will have to pay their fair share as well.

 

[Harry Bosch]

Why was the minimum wage implemented to begin with? When you have a minimum wage period, the implicit stance you make is that we (The USA) have an interest in assuring wage equitability for people who work. The important thing is that WE decide what is and is not equitable.

The other problem is that by shifting the focus of people not having enough to one of employment and wage level, the unemployed are left out and forgotten. Minimum wage, mandatory employer paying of medical benefits, etc do nothing to help those truly the most in need, who fall through the cracks. This is why universal single payer health care and universal basic income are essential.

The world can't even come together to fight global warming. How in the world would we implement a far more controversial topic such as universal basic income?