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Mixed-race student brings lawsuit against charter school for mandatory CRT content.

You said "incompatible " - if anything a stronger claim.

I disagree. But maybe you are right. It would depend on what either of us meant by the word we chose, and they are both similar. To me personally, contradictory would usually be the stronger of the two.

I elaborated on my post, by asking a question.
 
Who is the 'they' in 'their'? It is the previously-referred to 'accused', is it not?

In the context of describing some of the ways the discussion frequently gets derailed, not in a description of Politesse's perspective nor of the content of CRT.
 
You said "incompatible " - if anything a stronger claim.

I disagree. But maybe you are right. It would depend on what either of us meant by the word we chose. To me personally, contradictory would usually be the stronger of the two.

The world is full of contradictions, but no two incompatible claims are both true in the same universe.

I elaborated on my post, by asking a question.

If
 
Who is the 'they' in 'their'? It is the previously-referred to 'accused', is it not?

In the context of describing some of the ways the discussion frequently gets derailed, not in a description of Politesse's perspective nor of the content of CRT.

I don't understand your answer, but my point is that when we are talking about human affairs and interactions, there being an 'accused' and a 'their victim' is clearly invoking human agency.
 
Who is the 'they' in 'their'? It is the previously-referred to 'accused', is it not?

In the context of describing some of the ways the discussion frequently gets derailed, not in a description of Politesse's perspective nor of the content of CRT.

My point is that when we are talking about human affairs and interactions, there being an 'accused' and 'their victim' is clearly agental.

Last time I checked, motorists counted as agents too, so what again is wrong with my analogy? Or has that changed with Brexit?

And your point suffers from the problem that the paragraph from which you pulled the quote isn't describing CRT but some frequent but misguided criticisms - and describes them as misguided precisely because they try to push the narrative towards guilt and blame.
 
Last time I checked, motorists counted as agents too, so what again is wrong with my analogy?

Sorry, I didn't realise you were at least partially blaming the driver(s) in your analogy. If so, we don't have an issue. Except that we still do, because then, fault is not irrelevant, and it was said that under CRT, fault is irrelevant.
 
Last time I checked, motorists counted as agents too, so what again is wrong with my analogy?

Sorry, I didn't realise you were at least partially blaming the driver. If so, we don't have an issue.

I'm not. I'm pointing out that the rider can be accurately described as a victim while remaining agnostic about whether the driver can or should be blamed.

Also I may have added to my last post after you saw it.
 
I'm pointing out that the rider can be accurately described as a victim while remaining agnostic about whether the driver can or should be blamed.

I can only repeat what I think is obvious, in this particular case. When we are talking about human affairs and interactions especially, saying, in tandem, that there is both an 'accused' and a 'their victim' is pretty clearly invoking agency, not least because they are both obviously referring to people, not systems.
 
I'm pointing out that the rider can be accurately described as a victim while remaining agnostic about whether the driver can or should be blamed.

I can only repeat what I think is obvious. When we are talking about human affairs and interactions especially, saying, in tandem, that there is both an 'accused' and a 'their victim' is pretty clearly invoking agency.

And now go and read the whole paragraph again. You will find that it talks about misguided criticisms and why they're misguided.
 
I'm pointing out that the rider can be accurately described as a victim while remaining agnostic about whether the driver can or should be blamed.

I can only repeat what I think is obvious. When we are talking about human affairs and interactions especially, saying, in tandem, that there is both an 'accused' and a 'their victim' is pretty clearly invoking agency.

And now go and read the whole paragraph again. You will find that it talks about misguided criticisms and why they're misguided.
Thanks, I now see the word offences was also used.

Look, you can tell me you think I've misread what was said, but I honestly don't think I actually have. I think you are doing mental gymnastics. I can't see how poli was merely taking the position of a third party. He can clarify.

And by the way, I agree with much of what poli says, and I disagree with much of what Bomb said in reply, and I've stated both those things, so I'm not, at or on this point, having a go at anyone's overall position, and I wouldn't want what I'm saying to be blown out of proportion in that sense.

And also, what I'm saying about what poli said, or more to the point what I'm saying about agental thinking, could as easily be applied to anyone, including myself.

Bottom line: because of the way human brains work, I doubt it's possible to completely strip out agental thinking from within such theories, or indeed from our own responses to and interpretations of them.
 
I think it started out being about CRT in education. Then it became about CRT. Maybe general race issues is too broad.
A common problem. People seem to imagine that teachers, professors and administrators are some sort of unified bloc, and supposedly a leftist one at that. But I can testify from many hours of department meetings, workshops, and full-blown seminars, that the policymakers who drive pedagogical decisions are a diverse group in truth, and they are not immune to getting drawn into the political arguments of the day. Nor hashing them out over educational questions, even those to which they shouldn't logically or ethically be relevant. To say nothing of the role of angry parents. It's quite controversial to teach CRT at all, you know; even in a state like California where cooler heads have prevailed and ethnic studies are at least permitted, that is not to say that they arern't under constant conservative critique and even attack, from below and above. There are plenty of people who think "race" should not be taught at all in primary and secondary education, or taught in such a bland and saccharine fashion that no social sciences are involved at all.

And as in this thread, it is often assumed that if you are teaching about a theoretical school, that is necessarily an endorsement of it. If this were true, I am unclear how anyone would receive any sort of true education at all with such a philosophy at the helm of curriculum creation, given how seldom people all agree on something. There are a lot of open debates, in all of the sciences, and the job of a responsible educator is to fairly represent all common schools of thought, especially those for which a solid empirical case has been made. Now that is my personal opinion.
 
??? That's definitely not the case. That doesn't even make sense. How would racism create, for instance, gender inequalities?

Obviously he was talking about racial inequality.

Racism and racial inequality are essentially synonyms from a CRT perspective (or perhaps, one is the primary symptom and measure of the other), so in that case I suppose that is true.

Simple counterexample: The NBA. There's a reason it's very disproportionately black--blacks come from an environment where being long and thin is an advantage. The effect on the average person is tiny, but at the very tail the difference is substantial--when you look at the tallest people they are very disproportionately black. That's genetics, not racism. On the flip side, east Asians tend to be a bit smaller than average. Note how few are in the NBA.
 
blacks come from an environment where being long and thin is an advantage.

Citation?

You're contesting this?! The tropics--high surface area to volume is a good thing because you want to lose heat.

If you really want to talk pop-evo-pull-something-out-of-your-ass-might make sense (the kind Stephen Jay Gould rightly criticized, though he may have shot over the top on other issues): The easiest way to increase surface area to volume isn't to grow long and thin - it is to remain small!

The tell-tale sign of pseudoscience: Your explanation may sound plausible, but if the observation were the opposite of what it is, you could pull an equally plausible explanation for the opposite out of your hat, and nothing in your frameworks tells you which one is more plausible.
 
I did nothing of the sort. I carefully regarded the author's clear explanation and his clear intention. And I took note of the fact that the intention did not match the explanation.

By the same logic by which pointing out that a cargo truck, due to its sheer mass and size, has a bigger potential of harming and killing other traffic participants than a moped counts as holding truck drivers personally culpable for every accident ever that involved a truck, or by which suggesting legislation that demands trucks be retrofitted with turning assistant systems / blind spot monitors without demanding the same for mopeds counts as discrimination against truck drivers? I.e., not at all.
So, in this analogy, the cargo truck would be accused white guys? I.e., you feel we can measure truck mass and size with an albedometer?

And, assuming for the sake of discussion that we can do that, then furthermore, continuing with your analogy, you feel that pointing out that the traffic participant who was killed was killed by a massive cargo truck, and some accused white guys' massive cargo trucks are also massive cargo trucks, qualifies as an intellectually honest justification for labeling the accident victim "their" victim?

Recognising that acts have unintended consequences, that due to power imbalances, some agents' acts are prone to have more dire consequences than others', that some of these unintended and unwanted consequences can be mitigated by reducing the blind spots that make agents unable to see their acts' unintended consequences, and that not all agents' blind spots have an identical potential to produce harm and thus some agents' blind spots are more of a problem for society than others', isn't accusing anyone of being personally culpable for those consequences.
No, it isn't.

In contrast, saying somebody is personally culpable is, in point of fact, accusing him of being personally culpable. And if you say somebody is personally culpable, and then, when he protests at the injustice, give him a condescending lecture about how unimportant it is that you made him feel sad, that's what's called "adding insult to injury".

My best guess is that your objection hinges on the word "victim", but that's not really informative.
Why is that your best guess? You're a very smart guy. You can guess better than that.

...The bullies who push this garbage always give themselves away...

their[sic] original victim.

...like that.

If you truly thought personal culpability was irrelevant, you wouldn't have made a point of claiming the people aggrieved about being accused are in fact personally culpable.

What's diaengineous is the way you twist words to mean what you want them to mean without regard for the author's clear intention and explanation.
You already saw which word the objection hinges on -- you quoted it back to me when you made your false charge against me. So I shouldn't have to remind you it wasn't the word "victim" that I bolded and added "[sic]" to.

(In case the problem is that English is a second language for you, "sic" is an English word defined thusly:

sic
/sik/
adverb
used in brackets after a copied or quoted word that appears odd or erroneous to show that the word is quoted exactly as it stands in the original)

I get that you're playing TFT lawyer and you're zealously advocating for your client, but give it up. You haven't got a case.
 
So, in this analogy, the cargo truck would be accused white guys? I.e., you feel we can measure truck mass and size with an albedometer?

Why would that be a requirement for the analogy to work? We can't measure truck mass with an albedometer, but we can measure racial privilege and give a number to it, as we do with mass.

And, assuming for the sake of discussion that we can do that, then furthermore, continuing with your analogy, you feel that pointing out that the traffic participant who was killed was killed by a massive cargo truck, and some accused white guys' massive cargo trucks are also massive cargo trucks, qualifies as an intellectually honest justification for labeling the accident victim "their" victim?

It doesn't. Again, why would that be a requirement? The whole point of working on reducing blind spots is that, in small ways, everyone of us can fall victim of inadvertently hurting others without even knowing, and the very idea that reducing those blind spots can help at all assumes that we're basically good people who would, in most cases, avoid doing so if only we were aware.

Even the very same cargo truck driver who shoved the moped off the road may not be personally culpable in any meaningful sense - he may be if he was truly reckless and signalled the turn too late, or didn't look in the rear mirror properly, or we may want to blame the company for refusing to retrofit the truck with a blind spot monitor as they value a few hundred bucks more than a human life, or the legislator for not demanding such, or the moped rider for sneaking up to close, where he should have known he's in the truck's blind spot, or his instructor for not teaching him properly about trucks' blind spots. None of is the focus of the discussion - a solution oriented approach simply takes into account that the moped rider is now dead, and would likely be alive had the truck had a blind spot monitor installed. You call yourself a utilitarian, don't you? Well, time to live to live up to your words.

Your objection is a bit like lamenting that we can't demand blind spot monitors because by doing so, we implicitly blame all accidents involving trucks on the truck drivers - and that unfairness is obviously a greater evil than dead moped riders, and therefore, the prudent thing to do about this problem is - nothing (or maybe, banning mopeds).

Recognising that acts have unintended consequences, that due to power imbalances, some agents' acts are prone to have more dire consequences than others', that some of these unintended and unwanted consequences can be mitigated by reducing the blind spots that make agents unable to see their acts' unintended consequences, and that not all agents' blind spots have an identical potential to produce harm and thus some agents' blind spots are more of a problem for society than others', isn't accusing anyone of being personally culpable for those consequences.
No, it isn't.

In contrast, saying somebody is personally culpable is, in point of fact, accusing him of being personally culpable.

It is. However, noone has said that you or I are personally culpable, and your quote mine doesn't show otherwise. For the record, here's the complete sentence from which you pulled it. If you actually bother to read the whole sentence, you will find that it talks about how the criticisms that attack CRT on the basis that it burdens innocent people with personal culpability are misguided precisely because it isn't about personal culpability in the first place. I know, it's a bit of an awkward run-on sentence, but if I, as a non-native speaker, can attribute a meaning to it, you too should be able to:

Accepting injury without protest is a completely inadequate way to challenge the common belief that such offenses are acceptable, earned, or "trivial". Again, this obsession with guilt and personal culpability is distracting from the actual problems, preventing true inequlaities from being addressed by derailing the conversation into a discussion about the aggrieved feelings of the accused, in which it is assumed but never stated that the feelings of the accused should be considered more important or more justified than those of their original victim. This was literally the central thesis of White Fragility, the book all the conservatives are so afraid of but haven't read.


Of course, if you prefer to ignore the context and work yourself up on a couple of decontextualized words instead, there's little I can do to stop you. In that case, I shall continue to call your behaviour disingenuous. Your choice, really.
 
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