Most Americans in Abraham Lincoln's day were Christians. (Christians who didnt own slaves.) Prove me wrong.

[pood]

If abolition of slavery were a Christian, Scriptural, value the history of the Americas would be profoundly different. But it is not.

If slavery was an undisputed, perfectly obvious Christian, scriptural value, why did an overwhelmingly Christian nation abolish slavery?

This has already been explained to you, and you have duly ignored the explanation. It is because of the force of arms of the Union and the political sagacity of Lincoln. Christianity had nothing to do with it. Nor did democracy, because slavery was abolished by the institutions of a Republic. Your slaveholders were all Christians and a majority of all Americans, who were mostly Christian, did not support abolition, though many came grudgingly to support it as a way to win the war. Your view that slavery was abolished by Christianity, which advised slaves to obey their masters, is utterly unsupported and wholly idiotic, but it is a manifestation of the fantasy world you live in. It is very telling that you repeat this bullshit after having it refuted numerous times in this thread, refutations which you ignored.

 

[Lion IRC]

There is nothing written in the bible that condemns slavery, but there are verses that support it.

Slavery is wage theft.
The bible says thou shalt not steal.

It also says, “slaves, obey your earthly masters.”

Where the bible mentions slavery its usually a reference to voluntary and/or reluctantly consensual slavery. And it's invariably about harm-minimisation.

Would you say modern governments 'approve' of heroin use just because those governments fund safe injecting rooms for addicts?

 

[pood]

There is nothing written in the bible that condemns slavery, but there are verses that support it.

Slavery is wage theft.
The bible says thou shalt not steal.

It also says, “slaves, obey your earthly masters.”

Where the bible mentions slavery its usually a reference to voluntary and/or reluctantly consensual slavery. And it's invariably about harm-minimisation.

Would you say modern governments 'approve' of heroin use just because those governments fund safe injecting rooms for addicts?

Yeah, prove it.

So — LOL! — the slaves were addicted to their own slavery, like heroin addicts, and so the bible advocated “slave slavery regions” for those addicted to their own slavery? Honestly, dude, enough with making a fool of yourself!

 

[bilby]

He thinks that you can extrapolate abolitionism from the Bible. Funny that Christians didn't do that for most of their movement's history. No one in the Bible says slaves should be freed. Bondage is accepted in the Bible as a viable part of human society.
The Bible will tell you what to eat, how to prepare an animal sacrifice; it has chapter after chapter about being ritually clean/unclean...not a solitary verse about the inherent evil in owning, selling, coercing and abusing your fellow human. God's big message to humankind....

He missed a trick not giving detailed instructions on the digging and siting of latrines, too. I guess cholera and dysentery are beloved in the eyes of the Lord, who is amused at watching babies shit themselves to death, when there's not an entertaining slave-beating to be enjoyed.

 

[pood]

I will amend a bit what I wrote in post 101 above. Some Northern liberal Christians were certainly vociferous in opposing slavery and advocating its abolition, so it’s really not correct to say Christianity had “nothing” to do with it.

 

[bilby]

There is nothing written in the bible that condemns slavery, but there are verses that support it.

Slavery is wage theft.

Really? Where in the Bible does it say that?

The bible says thou shalt not steal.

But doesn't ever say, or imply, that slavery is stealing. Indeed, quite the reverse - it provides rules on how good, moral, god-fearing Bible believers should treat their slaves.

 

[ideologyhunter]

Where the bible mentions slavery its usually a reference to voluntary and/or reluctantly consensual slavery.

"Usually"? Are you conceding something? Are you willing to admit that Leviticus 25:44-6 is a description of chattel slavery, and that Israelites are taught they may engage in it?

And it's invariably about harm-minimisation.

Please read Exodus 21:20-1 and state honestly if this teaches harm-minimization. By Exodus 21 standards, the most abusive and violent slave owners and overseers find their whippings and beatings to be justified in the Bible, just as long as the slave lives through them. Harm minimization? Please tell me you don't work in law enforcement or incarceration.

 

[TomC]

If abolition of slavery were a Christian, Scriptural, value the history of the Americas would be profoundly different. But it is not.

If slavery was an undisputed, perfectly obvious Christian, scriptural value, why did an overwhelmingly Christian nation abolish slavery?

Because their ethics improved. Secular ethics grew rapidly, even amongst Christians, because they are both better and more rational.
Why did slavery remain such a big thing in the Euro-Christian world for so long, and was so hard to get rid of?

Honestly, I think that the reason that the Founding Fathers kinda left black people out of the freedom thing was because they needed to keep the otherwise rather conservative Christian colonies on board. Threats to end slavery would probably have caused the slave states to jump off the Succession Project. Imagine what would have happened if South Carolina had remained loyal to the Crown? Given use of Charleston Harbor to the British military? The Succession from the British Empire would not have happened.

As Ben Franklin put it, "We must hang together, else we'll all hang separately."
Tom

 

[bilby]

Where the bible mentions slavery its usually a reference to voluntary and/or reluctantly consensual slavery.

Where in the Bible does it say that?

That's just a post-hoc attempt to handwave away clearly immoral Biblical passages, made by people desperate to avoid any admission that the Bible isn't a morally perfect document.

 

[laughing dog]

No.
He said the bible didn't inform his great grandfather's moral judgement but left a great big vacuous, question begging hole in the place where his great grandfather actually DID get his belief instead.

I gather from his letters and the descriptions from my grandmother and father, he came to his convictions from observation and reflection.

Ever checked to see if your Great Grandfather's name, date of birth, marriage, baptism, spouse, children, etc was written in any family bible?

No, because i am unaware of any family bibles on my father’s side. I do have a family bible from my maternal Jewish grandfather. Will that do?

 

[laughing dog]

There is nothing written in the bible that condemns slavery, but there are verses that support it.

Slavery is wage theft.
The bible says thou shalt not steal.

Wage theft requires an explicit wage to be unpaid. Slaves were not promised wages, so wage theft was impossible.

 

[bilby]

Where the bible mentions slavery its usually a reference to voluntary and/or reluctantly consensual slavery. And it's invariably about harm-minimisation.

What did he say?

I think it was “Blessed are the cheesemakers.”

Aha, what’s so special about the cheesemakers?

Well, obviously it’s not meant to be taken literally; it refers to any manufacturers of dairy products.

- The Life of Brian​

 

[DBT]

There is nothing written in the bible that condemns slavery, but there are verses that support it.

Slavery is wage theft.
The bible says thou shalt not steal.

Deprivation of a persons liberty....no?

 

[Politesse]

Funny that Christians didn't do that for most of their movement's history.

Not true, slavery was marginalized for most of Christian history, not eradicated but a sea change from the Hellenistic world that preceded it. The practice didn't pick up steam again until the 16th century, and we all know when it fell in to popular disfavor again. This does not excuse the hypocrisy of the pro-slavery position, it makes it all the worse.

 

[Lion IRC]

This has already been explained to you...

Attempted explanations dont work if they are unconvincing.

and you have duly ignored the explanation.

Um. No.
I've read every post in this thread.

It is because of the force of arms of the Union and the political sagacity of Lincoln.

This is like saying the hammer and the nail are the reason why the house was built.

Christianity had nothing to do with it.

I say it did. Specifically, by virtue of the fact that America was overwhelmingly Christian, most Christians did NOT own slaves, and the democratic (majority) conviction to end slavery drove the political and miilitary actions taken to end it.

Nor did democracy, because slavery was abolished by the institutions of a Republic.

You dont get to hand-wave away democracy in a space littered with terms like Political, Presidential election, Constitutional Amendment, Congressional....

Your slaveholders were all Christians and a majority of all Americans, who were mostly Christian, did not support abolition,

The majority of Christians opposed slavery.
...because its not biblical.

...though many came grudgingly to support it as a way to win the war.

No. They already supported abolition.
What was grudgingly supported was the apparent unavoidable need for military action.

I would have been reluctant about that too.
The fact that the opponents of slavery were willing to fight and die for a cause shows how much they supported the abolition of slavery. Quite the opposite of your assertion that they grudgingly, reluctantly came to change their view.

Your view that slavery was abolished by Christianity, which advised slaves to obey their masters, is utterly unsupported and wholly idiotic,

I think your contrary view is unsupported.
...especially when it rests on technical terms like 'moron', 'idiotic' and a mistaken belief that America isn't a democracy.

It is very telling that you repeat this bullshit after having it refuted numerous times in this thread

Attempted refutations. Attempts that dont work if they are unconvincing.

....refutations which you ignored.

No, once again, I have read every post in this thread. You seem to hold to some conceited notion that if your opponent doesn't agree with you they must not have heard you.

 

[TomC]

There is nothing written in the bible that condemns slavery, but there are verses that support it.

Slavery is wage theft.
The bible says thou shalt not steal.

Wage theft requires an explicit wage to be unpaid. Slaves were not promised wages, so wage theft was impossible.

Rather like abortion and other issues,
Once you have an firm opinion, you can squint and hold your Bible sideways until you find something that supports your opinion.
Tom

 

[TomC]

The majority of Christians opposed slavery.
...because its not biblical.

I have no reason to believe that a majority of Americans, most of whom were Christian, actually cared very much.

But pretending that abolition is biblical is utterly absurd.
Tom

 

[Lion IRC]

There is nothing written in the bible that condemns slavery, but there are verses that support it.

Slavery is wage theft.
The bible says thou shalt not steal.

Deprivation of a persons liberty....no?

This is central to the Old Testament slavery polemic argument.

Slavery is bad but what if it's the lesser of two evils?

...yes, yes. I understand you lost your house and your job and all your possessions during that war. But I can't afford to pay you a wage.

...and I'd love to feed you and let you live here on the farm.

...but I can't because people would accuse me of being a slave owner!

 

[Lion IRC]

There is nothing written in the bible that condemns slavery, but there are verses that support it.

Slavery is wage theft.
The bible says thou shalt not steal.

Wage theft requires an explicit wage to be unpaid. Slaves were not promised wages, so wage theft was impossible.

Why would you promise to pay the person whose rightful wage you were stealing?
The act of theft is the NON payment.

 

[laughing dog]

There is nothing written in the bible that condemns slavery, but there are verses that support it.

Slavery is wage theft.
The bible says thou shalt not steal.

Deprivation of a persons liberty....no?

This is central to the Old Testament slavery polemic argument.

Slavery is bad but what if it's the lesser of two evils?

...yes, yes. I understand you lost your house and your job and all your possessions during that war. But I can't afford to pay you a wage.

...and I'd love to feed you and let you live here on the farm.

...but I can't because people would accuse me of being a slave owner!

Are you serious or seriously drunk?