MS13 Are Animals

[Koyaanisqatsi]

Yeah, these aren't animals at all. They're just misunderstood. Open the borders!

Now where have we seen something similar to that picture? Oh, right!



So, all KKK members—and their families and friends who shield them—should be deported now, too, right? Send them all back to where the “Aryans” came from? Iran.

Because that’s the way to deal with a problem; just dump it onto someone else’s lap, ignoring the fact that by deporting these kids all you’ve done is provided the larger “parent” gang with hundreds of recruits who have an intimate knowledge of the American criminal underground and police tactics.

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

MS-13 was not mentioned until after the "animals" comment.

On my screen it appears in the immediately preceding comment. But then it's possible my monitor is messed up.

SHERIFF MIMS: Thank you. There could be an MS-13 member I know about — if they don’t reach a certain threshold, I cannot tell ICE about it.

THE PRESIDENT: We have people coming into the country, or trying to come in — and we’re stopping a lot of them — but we’re taking people out of the country. You wouldn’t believe how bad these people are. These aren’t people. These are animals. And we’re taking them out of the country at a level and at a rate that’s never happened before. And because of the weak laws, they come in fast, we get them, we release them, we get them again, we bring them out. It’s crazy.

Anyone else seeing it there?

So Trump is calling everyone being removed animals. That includes people whose paperwork expired, people who committed misdemeanors, and whatever other scenarios. So it's a much bigger set than a gang, not really a superset of the gang either, just more people and for diverse reasons.

 

[dismal]

On my screen it appears in the immediately preceding comment. But then it's possible my monitor is messed up.



Anyone else seeing it there?

So Trump is calling everyone being removed animals. That includes people whose paperwork expired, people who committed misdemeanors, and whatever other scenarios. So it's a much bigger set than a gang, not really a superset of the gang either, just more people and for diverse reasons.

Are people just in need of a basic lesson on how English works?

Trump used a non-specific word "people". To understand which "people" he means, we can only look to the context of the conversation. The context of the conversation is it is in the midst of a discussion about nuclear terrorism and members of MS-13. If you read the remark out of context and assume "people" means something other than what is being discussed at the time you have no more basis than someone who assumes by "people" he meant "Hitler and the Nazis" or "Leftist Peckerheads on the internet".

I also used "people" in my first sentence of the post. Given the context of my comment, to what group of people is it reasonable to assume I am referring? (Tip: it's not "All immigrants".)

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

On my screen it appears in the immediately preceding comment. But then it's possible my monitor is messed up.



Anyone else seeing it there?

So Trump is calling everyone being removed animals. That includes people whose paperwork expired, people who committed misdemeanors, and whatever other scenarios. So it's a much bigger set than a gang, not really a superset of the gang either, just more people and for diverse reasons.

Are people just in need of a basic lesson on how English works?

Trump used a non-specific word "people". To understand which "people" he means, we can only look to the context of the conversation. The context of the conversation is it is in the midst of a discussion about nuclear terrorism and members of MS-13. If you read the remark out of context and assume "people" means something other than what is being discussed at the time you have no more basis than someone who assumes by "people" he meant "Hitler and the Nazis" or "Leftist Peckerheads on the internet".

I also used "people" in my first sentence of the post. Given the context of my comment, to what group of people is it reasonable to assume I am referring? (Tip: it's not "All immigrants".)

Wow, you need an English lesson. Here's how the conversation went:

SHERIFF MIMS: Thank you. There could be an MS-13 member I know about — if they don’t reach a certain threshold, I cannot tell ICE about it.

THE PRESIDENT: We have people coming into the country, or trying to come in — and we’re stopping a lot of them — but we’re taking people out of the country. You wouldn’t believe how bad these people are. These aren’t people. These are animals. And we’re taking them out of the country at a level and at a rate that’s never happened before. And because of the weak laws, they come in fast, we get them, we release them, we get them again, we bring them out. It’s crazy.

Yes, the original question is in regard to MS-13. So what? He is providing a general answer of how his policy works to answer how he is addressing the MS-13 issue. The general answer applies to other persons than just MS-13. He's discussing all people that are coming in illegally and all people they are removing. Not all immigrants!

CHIEF DUMBO: How do you add 4 + -2?
PRESIDENT TWITLER: To add negative numbers, we subtract the positive version of the number.
dismal: ZOMG! The President was only talking about 4 and -2! He wasn't talking about complex numbers!

Wrong dismal. Both too specific and too generic.

 

[RavenSky]

My point is there should be a common anger and outrage publically directed at these people.

It is not PC to attack an immigrant group even one as brutal as MS13.

What is not "PC" is to attack an immigrant group by fraudulently conflating them with a U.S.-based criminal gang

 

[laughing dog]

What is fascinating about the spin from these erstwhile Trump apologists is that this is not the first time that Trump has referred to illegal and legal immigrants in a bigoted and ignorant fashion.

 

[dismal]

Are people just in need of a basic lesson on how English works?

Trump used a non-specific word "people". To understand which "people" he means, we can only look to the context of the conversation. The context of the conversation is it is in the midst of a discussion about nuclear terrorism and members of MS-13. If you read the remark out of context and assume "people" means something other than what is being discussed at the time you have no more basis than someone who assumes by "people" he meant "Hitler and the Nazis" or "Leftist Peckerheads on the internet".

I also used "people" in my first sentence of the post. Given the context of my comment, to what group of people is it reasonable to assume I am referring? (Tip: it's not "All immigrants".)

Wow, you need an English lesson. Here's how the conversation went:

SHERIFF MIMS: Thank you. There could be an MS-13 member I know about — if they don’t reach a certain threshold, I cannot tell ICE about it.

THE PRESIDENT: We have people coming into the country, or trying to come in — and we’re stopping a lot of them — but we’re taking people out of the country. You wouldn’t believe how bad these people are. These aren’t people. These are animals. And we’re taking them out of the country at a level and at a rate that’s never happened before. And because of the weak laws, they come in fast, we get them, we release them, we get them again, we bring them out. It’s crazy.

Yes, the original question is in regard to MS-13. So what? He is providing a general answer of how his policy works to answer how he is addressing the MS-13 issue. The general answer applies to other persons than just MS-13. He's discussing all people that are coming in illegally and all people they are removing. Not all immigrants!

CHIEF DUMBO: How do you add 4 + -2?
PRESIDENT TWITLER: To add negative numbers, we subtract the positive version of the number.
dismal: ZOMG! The President was only talking about 4 and -2! He wasn't talking about complex numbers!

Wrong dismal. Both too specific and too generic.

I linked the whole transcript. Read it. They are not talking about immigrants in general at the time. It's clear, obvious, and undebatable. Unless one is totally blinded by Trump Derangement.

- - - Updated - - -

My point is there should be a common anger and outrage publically directed at these people.

It is not PC to attack an immigrant group even one as brutal as MS13.

What is not "PC" is to attack an immigrant group by fraudulently conflating them with a U.S.-based criminal gang

And yet that's what some Leftist Peckerheads on the internet keep doing. Inappropriately conflating "immigrants" with "Ms-13".

 

[Loren Pechtel]

His context was sloppy and you would have defended him in either case.

I'll certainly agree his context was sloppy. However, this is a situation where it's quite possible it's just sloppy speaking and not evil. He's done plenty of definitely wrong stuff, I don't feel inclined to condemn him for what very well might just be a mistake.

 

[laughing dog]

Wow, you need an English lesson. Here's how the conversation went:


Yes, the original question is in regard to MS-13. So what? He is providing a general answer of how his policy works to answer how he is addressing the MS-13 issue. The general answer applies to other persons than just MS-13. He's discussing all people that are coming in illegally and all people they are removing. Not all immigrants!

CHIEF DUMBO: How do you add 4 + -2?
PRESIDENT TWITLER: To add negative numbers, we subtract the positive version of the number.
dismal: ZOMG! The President was only talking about 4 and -2! He wasn't talking about complex numbers!

Wrong dismal. Both too specific and too generic.

I linked the whole transcript. Read it. They are not talking about immigrants in general at the time. It's clear, obvious, and undebatable. Unless one is totally blinded by Trump Derangement.

It is clear the Sheriff is not talking about immigrants in general. To anyone who understands English and whose head is not up Trump's ass, it is not clear that Trump is talking about MS13 immigrants alone.

 

[RavenSky]

If CNN began a policical pressure campign to deal with MS13 there would undoudtedly be blowback over defaming immigrants.

You will not see "blowback" against dealing with MS13 unless (as is happening) you have racist jackasses like Trump falsely claiming that MS13 is an immigration problem rather than what is the truth:

MS-13 is a CRIMINAL problem, an international criminal gang that started in LA in the Reagan/Bush era of the 1980's. To their credit, they actually passed some reasonable immigration legislation which gave amnesty to undocumented immigrants who had arrived prior to 1982 and made sure the children of immigrants were allowed to attend public school. These factors helped keep MS-13 a relatively local and relatively powerless gang.

It was actually President Clinton who blew it all up by deporting prisoned MS-13 members to El Salvador (a country we helped destabilize). They lived in the chaos of El Salvador, and that is how they became an international crime network that preys almost exclusively on the immigrant population.

Trump wants to repeat that mistake.

Worse, he is trying to use MS-13 as the excuse to deport ALL brown-skinned people, including a young man with DACA status and zero gang affiliation.

- - - Updated - - -

And why is the right's response tp this whole thing to again bring up...Clinton? You guys need help.

Ironically, they SHOULD bring up a Clinton for this discussion... just not Hillary.

 

[RavenSky]

^^^^ That is complete bullshit

 

[RavenSky]

What is fascinating about the spin from these erstwhile Trump apologists is that this is not the first time that Trump has referred to illegal and legal immigrants in a bigoted and ignorant fashion.

Exactly.

He has a very very long history of broad-brushing all PoC as "criminals" and "animals"... even after DNA prove particular men are 100% innocent.

Trump is a racist through and through, and the contortions his defenders go through to excuse his MS-13 falsehoods would be comical if it weren't so serious

 

[RavenSky]

What is not "PC" is to attack an immigrant group by fraudulently conflating them with a U.S.-based criminal gang

And yet that's what some Leftist Peckerheads on the internet keep doing. Inappropriately conflating "immigrants" with "Ms-13".

While Trump is certainly a peckerhead, I wouldn't call him a "leftist"... or a "rightist" for that matter. He's a malignant misogynistic racist narcissist.

 

[RavenSky]

Is there a more effective way to combat MS-13? Earlier this month, I asked three men who know as much as anyone about the gang. They are ex-gang members themselves, and since they’ve left that life they’ve dedicated their professional careers to helping others do the same.

One of them is Alex Sanchez, a forty-five-year-old former MS-13 member based in Los Angeles, who started the U.S. chapter of a Salvadoran organization called Homies Unidos, which provides relief services for reforming gangsters. Sanchez was granted asylum in the United States after vigilante death squads targeting the gangs in El Salvador threatened to kill him for his work. “We have to stop talking about this issue as a way to demonize the youth and to continue the rhetoric that crime is committed by immigrants,” he told me. “That isolates the communities coming forward if they’re victims. And it isolates the gang members who want to change and leave the gang.” He told me that ice raids were scaring young immigrants out of attending counselling and outreach programs. The President’s public remarks about MS-13 have also given it a reputational boost. “MS-13 getting hyped to be one of the most dangerous gangs in the world just feeds into the gang’s goal,” Sanchez said. “It’s a recruitment tool. They can say they’re huge, that they’re vicious. It convinces youth at risk that they should join this huge umbrella that they can be protected under.”

https://www.newyorker.com/news/daily-comment/former-gang-members-offer-advice-on-how-to-combat-ms-13

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

I linked the whole transcript. Read it. They are not talking about immigrants in general at the time. It's clear, obvious, and undebatable. Unless one is totally blinded by Trump Derangement.

It is clear the Sheriff is not talking about immigrants in general. To anyone who understands English and whose head is not up Trump's ass, it is not clear that Trump is talking about MS13 immigrants alone.

dismal's argument is to use context to say MS13. If we do that then Trump's statement doesn't make sense as the "weak laws" he is discussing would be laws designed for ms-13 which they aren't. dismal ignores the greater context of Trump's previous statements about dreamers, daca, immigration law, illegal immigrants, Mexicans, and shithole countries in favor of something that makes less sense because he's afraid somehow this quote can be used against Dear Leader to prove he's a racist. I don't see it that way. He just fucked up speaking is all.

Trump started out by talking about immigrants, then mid-sentence corrected himself to discuss illegal immigrants. He thinks millions of illegals voted for Hillary and are criminals so he wants to get rid of them. Likewise, he wants to remove legal immigrants who have committed crimes and wants tougher deportation laws on them. His focus in the heat of the moment and for the subject makes it sound like anyone being removed is an animal. It's not the first time he's flubbed like that. I am sure if we ask him he'll say he didn't mean quite what he said-like he wouldn't include the babies being deported whose parents fucked up the paperwork and have misdemeanors. He just had some kind of stereotype in his head when he said it. Twitler is just crude, mean, and shoots from the hip, but he honestly does have a soft spot for babies. He wouldn't mind deporting more of them, but he wouldn't call them animals if given enough time to consider, reconsider, get advice on wording from wordsmiths, and reconsider again before speaking his words.

 

[Trausti]

 

[RavenSky]

In the early 2000s, at its height, MS-13 reached about 10,000 members nationwide. But even then, the gang’s influence was disproportionate to its size, representing a small portion of America’s 1.4 million gang members. MS-13 is distinguished from other U.S. gangs, because the government labels it a “transnational criminal organization,” something typically reserved for more sophisticated crime groups. But like other gangs in the U.S., at the end of the last decade its reach and violence waned. In fact, the same day Trump tweeted about MS-13, the U.S. Justice Department released a fact sheet that said state and federal authorities had “severely disrupted the gang within certain targeted areas of the U.S. by 2009 and 2010.” So what has changed in that time?

On the West Coast, anthropologist Jorja Leap says the gang’s power has declined. Leap is a professor at the University of California, Los Angeles, who spent 10 years studying MS-13 and wrote a book on the gang. She told me that outside of a few high-profile murders, the gang’s recent return to the national psyche is political opportunism.

Immigration and Customs Enforcement’s division that focuses on gangs, Homeland Security Investigations, deported 114,434 individuals last year, according to data given to CNN. MS-13 made up only 429 of those

https://www.theatlantic.com/news/archive/2017/06/trump-ms-13/528453/

 

[braces_for_impact]

If CNN began a policical pressure campign to deal with MS13 there would undoudtedly be blowback over defaming immigrants.

You will not see "blowback" against dealing with MS13 unless (as is happening) you have racist jackasses like Trump falsely claiming that MS13 is an immigration problem rather than what is the truth:

MS-13 is a CRIMINAL problem, an international criminal gang that started in LA in the Reagan/Bush era of the 1980's. To their credit, they actually passed some reasonable immigration legislation which gave amnesty to undocumented immigrants who had arrived prior to 1982 and made sure the children of immigrants were allowed to attend public school. These factors helped keep MS-13 a relatively local and relatively powerless gang.

It was actually President Clinton who blew it all up by deporting prisoned MS-13 members to El Salvador (a country we helped destabilize). They lived in the chaos of El Salvador, and that is how they became an international crime network that preys almost exclusively on the immigrant population.

Trump wants to repeat that mistake.

Worse, he is trying to use MS-13 as the excuse to deport ALL brown-skinned people, including a young man with DACA status and zero gang affiliation.

- - - Updated - - -

And why is the right's response tp this whole thing to again bring up...Clinton? You guys need help.

Ironically, they SHOULD bring up a Clinton for this discussion... just not Hillary.

Exactly. This isn't top secret information either. It's been disseminated pretty wide. They've cleverly hidden this information in books and on the Internet.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

His context was sloppy and you would have defended him in either case.

I'll certainly agree his context was sloppy. However, this is a situation where it's quite possible it's just sloppy speaking and not evil. He's done plenty of definitely wrong stuff, I don't feel inclined to condemn him for what very well might just be a mistake.

I’m not certain why calling MS-13 animals is really doing anything useful. We have plenty of domestic ‘animals’ committing awful crimes as well. And Trump speaks as if MS-13 has tens of thousands of border crossings each month.

 

[Trausti]

His context was sloppy and you would have defended him in either case.

I'll certainly agree his context was sloppy. However, this is a situation where it's quite possible it's just sloppy speaking and not evil. He's done plenty of definitely wrong stuff, I don't feel inclined to condemn him for what very well might just be a mistake.

I’m not certain why calling MS-13 animals is really doing anything useful. We have plenty of domestic ‘animals’ committing awful crimes as well. And Trump speaks as if MS-13 has tens of thousands of border crossings each month.

Imagine if the media didn't make this non-story a story? Now many more people are aware of MS-13 and wondering why dems / liberals are defending them. Sure, there really are not that many of them in the US. But the media has scored an own goal in its hostility against Trump.