Municipal Gas Station Proves Popular in Kentucky

[coloradoatheist]

I guess the town's economic development business coordinator was lying to us. Someone should charge him with misleading the public.



I know I believe internet forums poster dismal knows more about Somerset, KY gas prices than the local economic development guy does.

I have never known local business development guys to be real up on gas price data.

Do you imagine the 15 or 20 stations in Somerset Ky all colluded to raise prices 20 cents above market? When the entire refinery gate to street price markup on gasoline is about 30 cents and the retail profit is maybe 2 cents?

Would another question be, "Why do gas prices drop?"

 

[Bronzeage]

I'm sure you got that impression from many years of living in Louisiana. Just for the curiosity, I checked and discovered that stateintegrity.com thinks Minnesota ranks ten places worse than Louisiana for state corruption. We were rated C-, while Minnesota was marked D-. This means Louisiana squeaked by and Minnesota is going to have to attend summer school. I never would have imagined Minnesota would be more rapacious with their citizen's money than Louisiana. It's strange how long held impressions can be mistaken.

Well my image was from Louisianans description of their home state and is not to be used as a real comparison. But you might want to use a different link than State Integrity, as I'm not really sure you link is telling us what you think it does.

Stealing gasoline is not a matter of cards and pumps. It's a matter of what vehicle receives the fuel. One card looks as much like one as the other. There is no effective way to prove someone filled a private vehicle with a public card, except to capture all the information at the time of the crime. This means video recording, indexed to card numbers, which are an added expense the tax payers may have to fund.

Actually, it isn't that difficult especially if the card travels with the vehicle (like the Feds do it).

Sorry. but in anyone's grading system, C- beats D+. Not by much but it's still ahead of you.

I am a little surprised you would have trouble with the idea of stealing gasoline, but it's probably just a lack of exposure to the criminal element. Here is how it works.

A corrupt city employee(CCE) has a fuel card. This card has a magnetic strip which identifies this card and the assigned user, or users. CCE knows the pin number for this card and allows a criminally minded citizen(CMC) to use this card to obtain a tank of gas. This card might even be assigned to some construction equipment, which means there is no fuel mileage number to be examined. CMC hands CCE a $20 bill and both go on their way.

As I mentioned before, the pump knows the card, but not the car. Once the gas is dispensed, it looks like any other gas in any other car and any card looks like any other card. If there is not someway to capture the transaction and the true identity of the vehicle at the same time, there is no way to prosecute anyone.

There are systems which scan the barcode on the vin plate, but that is another expense.

 

[ksen]

I have never known local business development guys to be real up on gas price data.

Well, that settles that then.

 

[Horatio Parker]

Just for the curiosity, I checked and discovered that stateintegrity.com thinks Minnesota ranks ten places worse than Louisiana for state corruption. We were rated C-, while Minnesota was marked D-. This means Louisiana squeaked by and Minnesota is going to have to attend summer school. I never would have imagined Minnesota would be more rapacious with their citizen's money than Louisiana. It's strange how long held impressions can be mistaken.

Any list where New Jersey is the least corrupt is itself suspect. NJ is notoriously corrupt. I remember the joke beginning, "Five NJ mayors walk into a bar....".

And BTW NJ, the best, only gets a B+.

 

[Horatio Parker]

https://www.google.com/maps/search/...3s0x885d35ffbeedf343:0x35b2c3e70278f57a?hl=en

This looks like a decent size town with 15 or 20 brand name gas stations.

I think we can dispense with the discussion that these are mom and pops, and probably conclude that the claim they charge 20 cents more than surrounding towns is complete bullshit.

You would need a price history to ascertain that.

The mayor said his goals were to lower prices, he doesn't care if they don't sell one gallon, and that appears to have happened:

http://gasbuddy.com

According to this(I was unable to copy the URL with the query for Somerset ky), prices are stable around $3.29. If the municipal station is listed, I didn't notice it.

 

[Nice Squirrel]

Sorry. but in anyone's grading system, C- beats D+. Not by much but it's still ahead of you.

But they are not grading public corruption which is what you claimed. That's why New Jersey got a B+. It is not measuring corruption. Be more careful next time you post.

I am a little surprised you would have trouble with the idea of stealing gasoline, but it's probably just a lack of exposure to the criminal element. Here is how it works.

Cool story bro. The Corrupt City Employees could also dismantle the canopy and sell that! My God don't you know all city employees are corrupt. It is in their nature, government workers will always steal and there is no way to stop them. (Unlike those good private sector employees).

But unfortunately, you'll have to show that these employees are actually corrupt in the first place. Or that gasoline is actually being stolen from this facility. Yeah, I know not everyone is on the up and up, but nearly all people are honest, and somebody stealing gasoline is going to get noticed.

 

[Bronzeage]

Just for the curiosity, I checked and discovered that stateintegrity.com thinks Minnesota ranks ten places worse than Louisiana for state corruption. We were rated C-, while Minnesota was marked D-. This means Louisiana squeaked by and Minnesota is going to have to attend summer school. I never would have imagined Minnesota would be more rapacious with their citizen's money than Louisiana. It's strange how long held impressions can be mistaken.

Any list where New Jersey is the least corrupt is itself suspect. NJ is notoriously corrupt. I remember the joke beginning, "Five NJ mayors walk into a bar....".

And BTW NJ, the best, only gets a B+.

What can one say about stereotypes? They probably aren't a firm basis for informed opinion.

I've used Louisiana's corruption rating before whenever somebody takes a cheap shot. People do find it incredible that we are in the top 20 least corrupt. I think it's because we just have more colorful criminals in government, but not more of them.

 

[Horatio Parker]

Any list where New Jersey is the least corrupt is itself suspect. NJ is notoriously corrupt. I remember the joke beginning, "Five NJ mayors walk into a bar....".

And BTW NJ, the best, only gets a B+.

What can one say about stereotypes? They probably aren't a firm basis for informed opinion.

I've used Louisiana's corruption rating before whenever somebody takes a cheap shot. People do find it incredible that we are in the top 20 least corrupt. I think it's because we just have more colorful criminals in government, but not more of them.

I'm arguing from 25+years of living in the area, not that dumb joke.

But I can argue from authority, too:

The 10 most corrupt states:


1. Mississippi
2. Louisiana
3. Tennessee
4. Illinois
5. Pennsylvania
6. Alabama
7. Alaska
8. South Dakota
9. Kentucky
10. Florida

 

[Bronzeage]

But they are not grading public corruption which is what you claimed. That's why New Jersey got a B+. It is not measuring corruption. Be more careful next time you post.

I am a little surprised you would have trouble with the idea of stealing gasoline, but it's probably just a lack of exposure to the criminal element. Here is how it works.

Cool story bro. The Corrupt City Employees could also dismantle the canopy and sell that! My God don't you know all city employees are corrupt. It is in their nature, government workers will always steal and there is no way to stop them. (Unlike those good private sector employees).

But unfortunately, you'll have to show that these employees are actually corrupt in the first place. Or that gasoline is actually being stolen from this facility. Yeah, I know not everyone is on the up and up, but nearly all people are honest, and somebody stealing gasoline is going to get noticed.

Of course. There's no reason to think anyone would scheme to steal a commodity that nearly everybody needs on a daily basis and sell it for cash, even when it's relatively easy to do and the chances of detection are slim.

Why do I have to show the employees are corrupt or that gas is being stolen? I'm not on the City payroll and I'm not a tax payer in that city, so it doesn't hurt me.

I have been on the payroll of private companies which expected me to keep employee theft to a minimum and one of those companies owned a gas pump. Keeping the pump secure and safe from thieves was a constant concern and there were no public employees to be seen. Once, we were in a bind and needed a part to finish a job and all the company trucks were on the road. An employee offered to use his own car, if I put some gas in it. I pulled a $5 bill from my pocket and told him to stop at Circle-K on the way out. He thought I was going to take it from the company pump. I said no to that. I didn't want any employee cars near the pump. It would make it to easy to explain why someone's car was parked there.

- - - Updated - - -

What can one say about stereotypes? They probably aren't a firm basis for informed opinion.

I've used Louisiana's corruption rating before whenever somebody takes a cheap shot. People do find it incredible that we are in the top 20 least corrupt. I think it's because we just have more colorful criminals in government, but not more of them.

I'm arguing from 25+years of living in the area, not that dumb joke.

But I can argue from authority, too:

The 10 most corrupt states:


1. Mississippi
2. Louisiana
3. Tennessee
4. Illinois
5. Pennsylvania
6. Alabama
7. Alaska
8. South Dakota
9. Kentucky
10. Florida

This means when Louisiana goes to prison, we'll shank Mississippi and the remaining 48 states become our prison wives.

 

[bilby]

But they are not grading public corruption which is what you claimed. That's why New Jersey got a B+. It is not measuring corruption. Be more careful next time you post.

Cool story bro. The Corrupt City Employees could also dismantle the canopy and sell that! My God don't you know all city employees are corrupt. It is in their nature, government workers will always steal and there is no way to stop them. (Unlike those good private sector employees).

But unfortunately, you'll have to show that these employees are actually corrupt in the first place. Or that gasoline is actually being stolen from this facility. Yeah, I know not everyone is on the up and up, but nearly all people are honest, and somebody stealing gasoline is going to get noticed.

Of course. There's no reason to think anyone would scheme to steal a commodity that nearly everybody needs on a daily basis and sell it for cash, even when it's relatively easy to do and the chances of detection are slim.

Why do I have to show the employees are corrupt or that gas is being stolen? I'm not on the City payroll and I'm not a tax payer in that city, so it doesn't hurt me.

I have been on the payroll of private companies which expected me to keep employee theft to a minimum and one of those companies owned a gas pump. Keeping the pump secure and safe from thieves was a constant concern and there were no public employees to be seen. Once, we were in a bind and needed a part to finish a job and all the company trucks were on the road. An employee offered to use his own car, if I put some gas in it. I pulled a $5 bill from my pocket and told him to stop at Circle-K on the way out. He thought I was going to take it from the company pump. I said no to that. I didn't want any employee cars near the pump. It would make it to easy to explain why someone's car was parked there.

So you are saying that this whole discussion of fuel theft is irrelevant to the question of government vs private operation of fuel pumps, because both situations are equally at risk of theft - and in both situations, some costs are implied by the need to minimise such theft.

I am glad you could clear that up; perhaps you could also point out to Loren Pechtel that his assertions about the inefficiency of government organisations are equally applicable to similarly sized private enterprises.

Theft isn't a point of difference here; nor is efficiency. Perhaps it would be sensible, when explaining why one option is better than another, to discuss differences between them, rather than describing the minutiae of their similarities?

 

[Horatio Parker]

This means when Louisiana goes to prison, we'll shank Mississippi and the remaining 48 states become our prison wives.

"Five Louisiana [INSERT TITLE] walk into a bar...."

 

[Loren Pechtel]

https://www.google.com/maps/search/...3s0x885d35ffbeedf343:0x35b2c3e70278f57a?hl=en

This looks like a decent size town with 15 or 20 brand name gas stations.

I think we can dispense with the discussion that these are mom and pops, and probably conclude that the claim they charge 20 cents more than surrounding towns is complete bullshit.

Or maybe there's some local factor that raises prices.

 

[dismal]

I have never known local business development guys to be real up on gas price data.

Do you imagine the 15 or 20 stations in Somerset Ky all colluded to raise prices 20 cents above market? When the entire refinery gate to street price markup on gasoline is about 30 cents and the retail profit is maybe 2 cents?

Would another question be, "Why do gas prices drop?"

Answers #1 and 2 are "oil prices drop" and "refining margins" drop. Retail margins are usually pretty small and stable.

And it appears there is more than enough retail competition in this town to have that be the case here.

 

[dismal]

https://www.google.com/maps/search/...3s0x885d35ffbeedf343:0x35b2c3e70278f57a?hl=en

This looks like a decent size town with 15 or 20 brand name gas stations.

I think we can dispense with the discussion that these are mom and pops, and probably conclude that the claim they charge 20 cents more than surrounding towns is complete bullshit.

You would need a price history to ascertain that.

The mayor said his goals were to lower prices, he doesn't care if they don't sell one gallon, and that appears to have happened:

http://gasbuddy.com

According to this(I was unable to copy the URL with the query for Somerset ky), prices are stable around $3.29. If the municipal station is listed, I didn't notice it.

You would need run a history of both this town and surrounding towns and see a 20 cent differential between the two disappear when the municipal station came on to demonstrate the hypothesis. This data is available from outfits like OPIS (and perhaps "gasbuddy.com"), but it costs money to get. It would have been nice to see a journalist run the numbers before gullibly publishing the quote.

- - - Updated - - -

https://www.google.com/maps/search/...3s0x885d35ffbeedf343:0x35b2c3e70278f57a?hl=en

This looks like a decent size town with 15 or 20 brand name gas stations.

I think we can dispense with the discussion that these are mom and pops, and probably conclude that the claim they charge 20 cents more than surrounding towns is complete bullshit.

Or maybe there's some local factor that raises prices.

Any local factor I can think of would also apply to the citi owned store.

 

[Bronzeage]

Of course. There's no reason to think anyone would scheme to steal a commodity that nearly everybody needs on a daily basis and sell it for cash, even when it's relatively easy to do and the chances of detection are slim.

Why do I have to show the employees are corrupt or that gas is being stolen? I'm not on the City payroll and I'm not a tax payer in that city, so it doesn't hurt me.

I have been on the payroll of private companies which expected me to keep employee theft to a minimum and one of those companies owned a gas pump. Keeping the pump secure and safe from thieves was a constant concern and there were no public employees to be seen. Once, we were in a bind and needed a part to finish a job and all the company trucks were on the road. An employee offered to use his own car, if I put some gas in it. I pulled a $5 bill from my pocket and told him to stop at Circle-K on the way out. He thought I was going to take it from the company pump. I said no to that. I didn't want any employee cars near the pump. It would make it to easy to explain why someone's car was parked there.

So you are saying that this whole discussion of fuel theft is irrelevant to the question of government vs private operation of fuel pumps, because both situations are equally at risk of theft - and in both situations, some costs are implied by the need to minimise such theft.

I am glad you could clear that up; perhaps you could also point out to Loren Pechtel that his assertions about the inefficiency of government organisations are equally applicable to similarly sized private enterprises.

Theft isn't a point of difference here; nor is efficiency. Perhaps it would be sensible, when explaining why one option is better than another, to discuss differences between them, rather than describing the minutiae of their similarities?

This is getting tedious. The company where I worked had a gas pump for company vehicles. This was very similar to the situation in which the City finds itself. It was not a comparison of stations which are open to the public and the City owned gas station.

You are the one who thought I had some kind of problem with public employees. The problem with mixing public and personal vehicles at the same pump is that it is very easy to charge the gas to the city. This is not a problem the private station is going to have.

Do you know how the City intends to collect the money from the honest paying customers?

 

[Loren Pechtel]

https://www.google.com/maps/search/...3s0x885d35ffbeedf343:0x35b2c3e70278f57a?hl=en

This looks like a decent size town with 15 or 20 brand name gas stations.

I think we can dispense with the discussion that these are mom and pops, and probably conclude that the claim they charge 20 cents more than surrounding towns is complete bullshit.

Or maybe there's some local factor that raises prices.

Any local factor I can think of would also apply to the citi owned store.

Unless it's due to taxes or the like.

 

[dismal]

https://www.google.com/maps/search/...3s0x885d35ffbeedf343:0x35b2c3e70278f57a?hl=en

This looks like a decent size town with 15 or 20 brand name gas stations.

I think we can dispense with the discussion that these are mom and pops, and probably conclude that the claim they charge 20 cents more than surrounding towns is complete bullshit.

Or maybe there's some local factor that raises prices.

Any local factor I can think of would also apply to the citi owned store.

Unless it's due to taxes or the like.

It has not been suggested that the city applies a tax to private stations that it does not apply to itself (except of course property tax).

Indeed the city implies its mission is to lower gas prices, which if they were high due to a city tax would have a very direct solution.

The city asserts the prices are high due to the ruthless profiteering of the 20 local gas stations and the answer therefore is to spend taxpayer dollars to create a 21st.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

https://www.google.com/maps/search/...3s0x885d35ffbeedf343:0x35b2c3e70278f57a?hl=en

This looks like a decent size town with 15 or 20 brand name gas stations.

I think we can dispense with the discussion that these are mom and pops, and probably conclude that the claim they charge 20 cents more than surrounding towns is complete bullshit.

Or maybe there's some local factor that raises prices.

Any local factor I can think of would also apply to the citi owned store.

Unless it's due to taxes or the like.

It has not been suggested that the city applies a tax to private stations that it does not apply to itself (except of course property tax).

Indeed the city implies its mission is to lower gas prices, which if they were high due to a city tax would have a very direct solution.

The city asserts the prices are high due to the ruthless profiteering of the 20 local gas stations and the answer therefore is to spend taxpayer dollars to create a 21st.

And this is likely true. One problem I see with this is that they want to lower the price of gasoline. Problem is, gasoline is expensive now... mainly because there is more foreign demand for oil. Opening up a gas station to offer cheaper gasoline is ignoring the main source of the problem of higher gasoline prices... China and India demand, and Americans use too damn much of it (ave created an economy that hinges on rather inexpensive gasoline). Those days are gone.

We can only hope that Kentucky can survive this experiment.

 

[dismal]

We can only hope that Kentucky can survive this experiment.

If the historical pattern holds the station will be a failure and its apologists will tell us city owned gas stations were never *really* tried.

 

[jonatha]

https://www.google.com/maps/search/...3s0x885d35ffbeedf343:0x35b2c3e70278f57a?hl=en

This looks like a decent size town with 15 or 20 brand name gas stations.

I think we can dispense with the discussion that these are mom and pops, and probably conclude that the claim they charge 20 cents more than surrounding towns is complete bullshit.

Or maybe there's some local factor that raises prices.

Any local factor I can think of would also apply to the citi owned store.

Unless it's due to taxes or the like.

It has not been suggested that the city applies a tax to private stations that it does not apply to itself (except of course property tax).

Indeed the city implies its mission is to lower gas prices, which if they were high due to a city tax would have a very direct solution.

The city asserts the prices are high due to the ruthless profiteering of the 20 local gas stations and the answer therefore is to spend taxpayer dollars to create a 21st.

The notion that Somerset or Pulaski County has high taxes of any sort strikes me as ridiculous. (N.b., both sides of my family are from Pulaski County and I've spent a good deal of time in Pulaski County....)

Local gas prices are probably higher in that area compared to neighboring communities because thanks to Lake Cumberland there's a large tourist population (with boats, even...) that can be gouged.