My Answer to - No Atheists in Fox Holes

[Ramaraksha]

If you are saying a vast majority of people then this could be true. That would describe and include every human group as a whole on the Earth more or less. The cartoon is ONLY "asking" the theist /Christian sector which is not the vast majority of people fighting tooth or nail as you put it.
And again this becomes an even smaller number ;when amongst the theists only a portion perhaps would be "fighting tooth and nail".

This is just an answer to theists who say that there are no Atheists in fox holes - well the same arguments you are making, Atheists could make as well, correct? But that hasn't stopped theists from saying it

As for saying it is just a small number that is a totally biased view - hospitals are full off people fighting like mad to stay alive. The number of people who accept death are few and far between

People also hope for a better life for other people not just themselves who have NEVER had anything good in life. Born into hardship and sorrow .. dies in hardship and sorrow. I would want them to "experience" happiness and joy that they didn't know existed.

you can't live on dreams - there is no evidence of Heaven or alternate happy lands - if you think we humans have it bad, animals have it far worse - millions of animals suffer at our hands in factory farms every year - the male chicks are unwanted by the poultry industry, they are dumped into shredders and cut into pieces - ALIVE! Millions of them every year!

Like it or not, THIS IS IT! It is very, very tempting to run away and hide and religions exploit this - Heaven is nothing but a scam

As an educated person does it makes sense that God says, "Go live down on earth for a few years, some a few days, come back and live the good life for eternity?" - Does that make any sort of sense? Also what do we DO in Heaven? Just float around doing nothing? For eternity?

So, the person who dreams of a heaven - an easy breezy life of doing nothing - will come back as a pet - a dog or cat maybe or even a lower form of life - they get their wish, they get their heaven. That is the misunderstanding of Reincarnation
It is far more cruel to keep going round and round in hope that one day they may wish correctly then to slip and start again from the bottom. Reincarnation is a video game.

Again like it or not, THIS IS IT! God has created this world, this universe for us and made laws for us that we live by. Life is not forced on you, you can refuse reincarnation - then you will cease to exist that's all, but to think you will get to go sit and do nothing in some magic land in the sky has allowed religions to exploit that desire, preach hate and division.

So, in the Hindu view, if you want to experience life, you will get what you can handle. Just like your kids - one wants to be a doctor, the other a plumber - it is their choice - what they choose to do with their lives. You are telling God that human life is too tough for you, you want an easier life and an easier life is what you will get

 

[Ramaraksha]

No, the psycho god that enjoys breaking people's health and spirit enough so that they wish they were dead.

There are many gods.. which god are you referring to then?

There is only one God - it is funny that Christians say there is only one God but use it to divide people - your God and our God, whereas we Hindus have multiple God yet say God Rama is God for ALL - not just for the few. The Christian God is drawn from the template of a King - a slave may serve only one master, hence the one God

God Rama is Krishna is Jesus is Allah is the Buddha is Durga is......and so on. These are names that's all - once we say only one name is right, the rest are not, then we become Name Worshippers - God could come down and give a different name or come down as a black man, or a woman - those who use only one name would kick him/her out - that is Idolatry in a way

 

[Ramaraksha]

It is about as cruel as normal random life, because we don't have the actual memories of past lives.

Life has been so harsh for so long that we hope to go away and find a happier place and that has allowed religions to exploit us. But to see Life as a Gift, we do say that, we say Life is priceless, we welcome new babies as Gifts & that is what Reincarnation is saying.

Do you say, "Oh God, summer is over, I have to go to school again!" or "Summer is finally over, I get to go to school again"?
Or "the weekend is over, i have to go to work on monday" or "Monday is here again, i get to go to work"?

The latter is a small number which is why Reincarnation is looked down upon, but there is a message here

Heaven is a metaphor for the womb - inside we were at peace, warm, sheltered, protected, happy but then suddenly we were thrown out this Eden into a cold, harsh world - we feel pain for the first time, we start to cry immediately. But that is how life starts, that is how we know we must start life - that is the metaphor for Reincarnation

 

[sharon45]

It is about as cruel as normal random life, because we don't have the actual memories of past lives.

Life has been so harsh for so long that we hope to go away and find a happier place and that has allowed religions to exploit us. But to see Life as a Gift, we do say that, we say Life is priceless, we welcome new babies as Gifts & that is what Reincarnation is saying.

Do you say, "Oh God, summer is over, I have to go to school again!" or "Summer is finally over, I get to go to school again"?
Or "the weekend is over, i have to go to work on monday" or "Monday is here again, i get to go to work"?

The latter is a small number which is why Reincarnation is looked down upon, but there is a message here

Heaven is a metaphor for the womb - inside we were at peace, warm, sheltered, protected, happy but then suddenly we were thrown out this Eden into a cold, harsh world - we feel pain for the first time, we start to cry immediately. But that is how life starts, that is how we know we must start life - that is the metaphor for Reincarnation

View attachment 12922

I got the message a while ago, yet you keep saying about the same form letter again, and again, as though either we have never communicated before, or I am supposed to be considered quite dense.

 

[Ramaraksha]

I got the message a while ago, yet you keep saying about the same form letter again, and again, as though either we have never communicated before, or I am supposed to be considered quite dense.

Wait, this is a new Cartoon - slightly different - 3 ways to end pain and suffering

1. To run away (Heaven)
2. To drop all desires
3. To fight them, build a better world (Reincarnation)

 

[Learner]

This is just an answer to theists who say that there are no Atheists in fox holes - well the same arguments you are making, Atheists could make as well, correct? But that hasn't stopped theists from saying it

Is it a major issue that "SOME" theists are saying it? I haven't thought of it till you made the thread and brought it to attention. Its a little popular now at least and I may even start saying myself ... thanks to you.

As for saying it is just a small number that is a totally biased view - hospitals are full off people fighting like mad to stay alive. The number of people who accept death are few and far between

There are a lot of people fighting to stay alive and there are a lot of people accepting death even though initially they didn't want to. Its not rare!

Its quite often the case, I'm sure you'll agree . When there are those who know its their time for example: being caught in circumstances like those poor individuals trapped in buildings on fire, failing airplanes or other worldly disasters who never considered themselves to be brave at all. A variety of people - young and old in all shapes and sizes who are usually looked upon as just ordinary folk ... make those horrific moments they have left, to make extremely sad final phone calls to loved ones or whoever they manage to reach - say their last goodbyes and love you's.

There would be people calling out and to make peace with God of course .

Cont.. later

(you can be exhausting at times)

 

[Ramaraksha]

Is it a major issue that "SOME" theists are saying it? I haven't thought of it till you made the thread and brought it to attention. Its a little popular now at least and I may even start saying myself ... thanks to you.

As for saying it is just a small number that is a totally biased view - hospitals are full off people fighting like mad to stay alive. The number of people who accept death are few and far between

There are a lot of people fighting to stay alive and there are a lot of people accepting death even though initially they didn't want to. Its not rare!

Its quite often the case, I'm sure you'll agree . When there are those who know its their time for example: being caught in circumstances like those poor individuals trapped in buildings on fire, failing airplanes or other worldly disasters who never considered themselves to be brave at all. A variety of people - young and old in all shapes and sizes who are usually looked upon as just ordinary folk ... make those horrific moments they have left, to make extremely sad final phone calls to loved ones or whoever they manage to reach - say their last goodbyes and love you's.
(There would be of course people calling out to God).
Cont.. later

(you can be exhausting at times)

Well you can always claim ignorance - "no one is saying it" etc - but that is your right, i have heard it plenty - maybe you should listen less to Fox News

It is natural to want to be alive - that is why we have made it so far - if you think life is hard today, i have news for you - this is paradise compared to what our ancestors went thru - people died early - little protection against diseases - people died in their 30's and 40's imagine losing your parents at a young age and we are talking natural causes not due to wars or looters - quite a lot back then. The vast majority of people depended on agriculture and that meant rains - imagine no rains what people would go thru & yet it is the will to live that got us thru

That is why people end up in hospitals when the time is near

Your example of people dying in disasters is a totally different topic, but here again you are shading things - the vast majority fight like hell to stay alive, few give up

 

[Learner]

Well you can always claim ignorance - "no one is saying it" etc - but that is your right, i have heard it plenty - maybe you should listen less to Fox News

I'll stick to "some" people are saying it. You seem to have an element of "fox news" about you so to speak in your posts.

[There is only one God - it is funny that Christians say there is only one God but use it to divide people - your God and our God, whereas we Hindus have multiple God yet say God Rama is God for ALL - not just for the few. The Christian God is drawn from the template of a King - a slave may serve only one master, hence the one God]

This is also the God of the OT or the Torah. Since you never mention Jews in relation to one God unless its about their suffering in the WW2. Are you cautious about being anti-semetic ? Or are you really an Atheist Jew in disguise ?

It is natural to want to be alive - that is why we have made it so far - if you think life is hard today, i have news for you - this is paradise compared to what our ancestors went thru - people died early - little protection against diseases - people died in their 30's and 40's imagine losing your parents at a young age and we are talking natural causes not due to wars or looters - quite a lot back then.

Hmm you should show us which era of the historic time-line that was because ..more news ... there were also times when our ancestors were much healthier with better teeth that lived longer than that.

The vast majority of people depended on agriculture and that meant rains - imagine no rains what people would go thru & yet it is the will to live that got us thru

No one is denying the will to live and besides : people lived with the seasons and early times people were nomadic moved to warmer climates during the seasons.

That is why people end up in hospitals when the time is near

Your example of people dying in disasters is a totally different topic, but here again you are shading things - the vast majority fight like hell to stay alive, few give up

So then we do agree after all that a vast majority would fight to stay alive and its not a just a Christian thing?

 

[Juma]

I'll stick to "some" people are saying it. You seem to have an element of "fox news" about you so to speak in your posts.

[There is only one God - it is funny that Christians say there is only one God but use it to divide people - your God and our God, whereas we Hindus have multiple God yet say God Rama is God for ALL - not just for the few. The Christian God is drawn from the template of a King - a slave may serve only one master, hence the one God]

This is also the God of the OT or the Torah. Since you never mention Jews in relation to one God unless its about their suffering in the WW2. Are you cautious about being anti-semetic ? Or are you really an Atheist Jew in disguise ?

It is natural to want to be alive - that is why we have made it so far - if you think life is hard today, i have news for you - this is paradise compared to what our ancestors went thru - people died early - little protection against diseases - people died in their 30's and 40's imagine losing your parents at a young age and we are talking natural causes not due to wars or looters - quite a lot back then.

Hmm you should show us which era of the historic time-line that was because ..more news ... there were also times when our ancestors were much healthier with better teeth that lived longer than that.

The vast majority of people depended on agriculture and that meant rains - imagine no rains what people would go thru & yet it is the will to live that got us thru

No one is denying the will to live and besides : people lived with the seasons and early times people were nomadic moved to warmer climates during the seasons.

That is why people end up in hospitals when the time is near

Your example of people dying in disasters is a totally different topic, but here again you are shading things - the vast majority fight like hell to stay alive, few give up

So then we do agree after all that a vast majority would fight to stay alive and its not a just a Christian thing?

Why would be a ”christian” thing? Christianity is a death cult!

 

[Ramaraksha]

This is also the God of the OT or the Torah. Since you never mention Jews in relation to one God unless its about their suffering in the WW2. Are you cautious about being anti-semetic ? Or are you really an Atheist Jew in disguise ?

The jews were abused for centuries by different people it is quite natural for them to create their own religion, their own God that would look out for them. Quite a simple down-to-earth explanation

Hindus who say One God for all, lived in a different part of the world - had no contact with Jews or their history - a being who made this Universe made all of us - how can it be otherwise? The same being that created this universe, the sun, the stars created ALL of us - Father to ALL of us. Hinduism is an inclusive faith, not an exclusive one. That is why there is no hate if a Hindu converts to another religion - in islam it is a crime in certain countries - i believe in malaysia a muslim cannot convert out of his religion but of course they are happy to take in converts. I watched an episode of Ray Ramano's "Everybody loves Ray" where his brother becomes a Hindu and the whole show is one of abuse and hate towards Hinduism. We just don't have that mentality in Hinduism

I don't have the same bad feelings about the Jews because they don't push their religion down everyone's throats - also the only minority to suffer discrimination and yet beat their much larger majority - no one has done what they have done + all those noble prizes get my automatic respect

So then we do agree after all that a vast majority would fight to stay alive and its not a just a Christian thing?

I didn't make it a christian thing. Everyone fights to stay alive - Hindus, Muslims, Christians - and only Atheists can say they have good reasons to fight for life- they don't believe in after lives or 2nd chances. The rest of us do and yet we fight like hell to stay alive - that is the joke, unfortunately it is hitting home

 

[Ramaraksha]

Why would be a ”christian” thing? Christianity is a death cult!

It is a bit confusing - if Heaven is so great and life is a sin, why would suicide be a sin? How can both be sins? And what about mass murderers? Since they are freeing a whole lot of people from the drudgery of life and handing them an eternal life of joy and happiness are mass murderers heroes in Heaven?

 

[Learner]

Why would be a ”christian” thing? Christianity is a death cult!

Indeed why would it?

"Death cult" I'm not sure of the actual context you mean here. Its hard to tell with one sentence.

Human sacrifices upon an alter under the full moon , Christians killing themselves by the belief of reaching paradise sooner than later or the belief of God to kill non Christians (or both) or its fashionable to listen to death metal wearing goth black (I jest) ?

 

[sharon45]

Why would be a ”christian” thing? Christianity is a death cult!

Indeed why would it?

"Death cult" I'm not sure of the actual context you mean here. Its hard to tell with one sentence.

Many believe this for different reasons. One is what happened to its founder and almost all of its first followers. Another is because people can not know for certain if the religion is actually true until after they die.

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

Indeed why would it?

"Death cult" I'm not sure of the actual context you mean here. Its hard to tell with one sentence.

Many believe this for different reasons. One is what happened to its founder and almost all of its first followers. Another is because people can not know for certain if the religion is actually true until after they die.

That's quite an indictment of one's beliefs, that questions of uncertainty are only resolved when you're dead. But I am tempted to agree that it is the best explanation for religious people in foxholes. Foxholes must accommodate those who know there are no gods and those who have doubts about their gods.

 

[sharon45]

Many believe this for different reasons. One is what happened to its founder and almost all of its first followers. Another is because people can not know for certain if the religion is actually true until after they die.

That's quite an indictment of one's beliefs, that questions of uncertainty are only resolved when you're dead. But I am tempted to agree that it is the best explanation for religious people in foxholes. Foxholes must accommodate those who know there are no gods and those who have doubts about their gods.

I've always known that the religious are using a straw man with this foolish foxhole business, but the opposition trying to fling it right back doesn't look so hot either. The Bible doesn't really say anything of the sort on a general sense about that god asking people to actually want to die, or to make it easy to die. In the OT, there is no mention of people going to Heaven, and it talks about the amount of time needed for grieving, just that stupid Jesus might as well had passed off everyone as being like Lazarus or himself.

 

[WAB]

Life has been so harsh for so long that we hope to go away and find a happier place and that has allowed religions to exploit us. But to see Life as a Gift, we do say that, we say Life is priceless, we welcome new babies as Gifts & that is what Reincarnation is saying.

Do you say, "Oh God, summer is over, I have to go to school again!" or "Summer is finally over, I get to go to school again"?
Or "the weekend is over, i have to go to work on monday" or "Monday is here again, i get to go to work"?

The latter is a small number which is why Reincarnation is looked down upon, but there is a message here

Heaven is a metaphor for the womb - inside we were at peace, warm, sheltered, protected, happy but then suddenly we were thrown out this Eden into a cold, harsh world - we feel pain for the first time, we start to cry immediately. But that is how life starts, that is how we know we must start life - that is the metaphor for Reincarnation

View attachment 12922

I got the message a while ago, yet you keep saying about the same form letter again, and again, as though either we have never communicated before, or I am supposed to be considered quite dense.

You seem to be quite dense, to me, But that's just me. I think it's a matter of language, semantics, the absence of body language. In other words: I DO NOT really think you are "dense". I believe there is a communication breakdown (Zep reference quite intentional).

 

[WAB]

Do your comments apply to those who mock Atheists - No Atheists in Fox Holes - as well?

Did you miss the cartoon? Why is it that those who you say are happy that they have something to look forward to fight to the death clinging to life? Whatever happened to all the joy and happiness waiting for them? Why do they head to the hospital when ill instead of waiting at home for death?

There must be variable reasons to your narrow suggestion for a various number of people. Is this your summing of the total for people fighting for life?

I (no doubt others here too) have been at the bedside to close relatives who have not long to go. All of them that I've been with have accepted that death will be upon them shortly. No fear .. some with tears with thoughts that they would be leaving their loved ones behind in a harsh world.

I would myself stay alive as long as possible to make sure /to guide my youngens with my experiences against the bad things I've come across (I doubt they would remember from a previous life to guide them, so to speak). Including not being an idiot like I used to be (once or twice just escaping perilous situations).

Another example; an elderly woman I saw on a doc with hidden camera filming this person having NO family was a typical in cases like this across the world- who was simply tired of life through loneliness , mistreatment - the pains of just existing and so on. There are, not forgetting; even some people who have lived long lives having done everything they wanted who is content to be ready when the time comes.

Anyway this particular person I could not forget who had a fairly sound mind with clear understanding of her situation was shouting to nurses "kill me kill me" - it wasn't mentioned if she was a theist or not but it knocked me for seven with sadness and the anger I felt of mistreatment.

So ...what does this poor woman who wished to die come back as in reincarnation? A fox for tally-ho hunting games?

You wrote a lot, and made paragraphs, but unfortunately, there is not much logical or rational connection between them. Most importantly, there is no substantive rebuttle to what I wrote.

My point is, simply: Even if the religious stories are just stories, they still have a great value. ie: monogamy is a GOOD idea. The Golden Rule: Treat others as you would like to be treated: GOOD idea. Honor your mother and father. Hey, can any progressive liberal argue with that?

etc, etc.

 

[Learner]

You wrote a lot, and made paragraphs, but unfortunately, there is not much logical or rational connection between them.

You have exposed me. It has been frustrating and perhaps too hasty trying to communicate to the poster. Well if having no logical or rational connection between ... this may have been worse and unintelligible if there had been no paragraphs, I dread to think. I'll take it as good advice to consider from now on.

Most importantly, there is no substantive rebuttle to what I wrote.

If you mean no rebuttle from me regarding post # 24. I didn't think it was really neccessary for a theist response but you did get two responses from two non-religious posters.

My point is, simply: Even if the religious stories are just stories, they still have a great value. ie: monogamy is a GOOD idea. The Golden Rule: Treat others as you would like to be treated: GOOD idea. Honor your mother and father. Hey, can any progressive liberal argue with that?

etc, etc.

Good point - Good idea!

 

[Learner]

I've always known that the religious are using a straw man with this foolish foxhole business, but the opposition trying to fling it right back doesn't look so hot either. The Bible doesn't really say anything of the sort on a general sense about that god asking people to actually want to die, or to make it easy to die. In the OT, there is no mention of people going to Heaven, and it talks about the amount of time needed for grieving, just that stupid Jesus might as well had passed off everyone as being like Lazarus or himself.

OT perhaps not but then not all of the books were included. The book of Enoch predates the OT and mentions heaven and hell which means: The concept was not thought up by Christians!

 

[Underseer]

To me, the "no atheists in foxholes" argument is a confession that acceptance of religious truth claims comes from reason-destroying fear rather than careful consideration of the facts.