Netanyahu has lost his fucking mind

[angelo]

For fuck sake. Look at the Hamas charter. They don't simply want a state, or to co-exist next to a Jewish state. They want nothing less than to exterminate all Jews, not just in the Middle East, but world wide. I'll say it again. Palestinian apologists are supporters of terrorism!!

 

[Arctish]

For fuck sake. Look at the Hamas charter. They don't simply want a state, or to co-exist next to a Jewish state. They want nothing less than to exterminate all Jews, not just in the Middle East, but world wide. I'll say it again. Palestinian apologists are supporters of terrorism!!

Hamas does not represent all of the Palestinian people. It only took 44% of the vote in the one place it won an election, mostly because it ran a reform platform and Fatah ran a split ticket.

Saying all Palestinians share Hamas' goals is like saying all Americans are member of the Tea Party and want to overturn the Affordable Care Act.

BTW, it is entirely possible, reasonable, and morally consistent to both support the Palestinian people in their struggle to end the Occupation and have their human rights respected, and to oppose Hamas in their stated goals. Just as it's possible, reasonable, and morally consistent to support the human rights of Israelis and to oppose the stated goals of Netanyahu and his Likud party. Supporting a people doesn't mean you have to support their elected officials or their political parties, especially when those leaders and parties have goals that directly conflict with yours.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

Yes. The poor Jews that have been oppressing and torturing Palestinians for decades.

What these Jews most fear is they know what they deserve for all this abuse.

They're not really even coy about it.

You think there is a magic wand here, but I disagree. I’m asked if we will forever live by the sword – yes.

Unfortunate choice of words, or unspoken acknowledgement that he who lives by the sword will die by the sword, and Israel's ultimate destiny is inextricably linked to its choices here and now.

 

[angelo]

For fuck sake. Look at the Hamas charter. They don't simply want a state, or to co-exist next to a Jewish state. They want nothing less than to exterminate all Jews, not just in the Middle East, but world wide. I'll say it again. Palestinian apologists are supporters of terrorism!!

Hamas does not represent all of the Palestinian people. It only took 44% of the vote in the one place it won an election, mostly because it ran a reform platform and Fatah ran a split ticket.

Saying all Palestinians share Hamas' goals is like saying all Americans are member of the Tea Party and want to overturn the Affordable Care Act.

BTW, it is entirely possible, reasonable, and morally consistent to both support the Palestinian people in their struggle to end the Occupation and have their human rights respected, and to oppose Hamas in their stated goals. Just as it's possible, reasonable, and morally consistent to support the human rights of Israelis and to oppose the stated goals of Netanyahu and his Likud party. Supporting a people doesn't mean you have to support their elected officials or their political parties, especially when those leaders and parties have goals that directly conflict with yours.

Bullshit! If there were elections in Gaza tomorrow, Hamas would be re-elected!

 

[Arctish]

Hamas does not represent all of the Palestinian people. It only took 44% of the vote in the one place it won an election, mostly because it ran a reform platform and Fatah ran a split ticket.

Saying all Palestinians share Hamas' goals is like saying all Americans are member of the Tea Party and want to overturn the Affordable Care Act.

BTW, it is entirely possible, reasonable, and morally consistent to both support the Palestinian people in their struggle to end the Occupation and have their human rights respected, and to oppose Hamas in their stated goals. Just as it's possible, reasonable, and morally consistent to support the human rights of Israelis and to oppose the stated goals of Netanyahu and his Likud party. Supporting a people doesn't mean you have to support their elected officials or their political parties, especially when those leaders and parties have goals that directly conflict with yours.

Bullshit! If there were elections in Gaza tomorrow, Hamas would be re-elected!

Perhaps. It depends on who are the candidates, and what people believe they can do for Gaza.

But that doesn't change the fact Hamas won the first time around with approx. 44% of the vote in Gaza, had even less support in the West Bank, and has lost popularity since then. After a surge in popularity following the fighting last year, its popularity in Gaza this summer was a whopping 39%. Support for Hamas in the West Bank was about 32%, which is less than George W Bush has in his final days in office. So saying that all Palestinians support Hamas and agree with what's written in its Charter is quite a stretch. In fact, it's unbelievable.

 

[iolo]

Who could give the Nazi occupiers the right to a single square inch of Palestine? It belongs to the Palestinians, whose ancestors have always lived there, as you know.

But wouldn't we say that Israel was really the first artificially created state since it was made by the UN and not by the people who could make a claim to it? Should the UN rule that the US was rightfully owned by the native Americans and give it all back to them?

How could the UN create a State in someone else's country? Would you let 'em redistribute your trousers? We are not living in prehistory - there has been a development of International Law since American ethnic cleansing gave the Nazis their model.

- - - Updated - - -

They're not really even coy about it.

You think there is a magic wand here, but I disagree. I’m asked if we will forever live by the sword – yes.

Unfortunate choice of words, or unspoken acknowledgement that he who lives by the sword will die by the sword, and Israel's ultimate destiny is inextricably linked to its choices here and now.

What I fear is that the inevitable destruction of these Nazis may affect the future fate of decent Jews.

 

[angelo]

Talk about trying to turn the table. It's the terrorists who are the Nazis. Just like the Nazis, the terrorists, given the chance, would kill every man woman and child just because they're Jews!

 

[Loren Pechtel]

But wouldn't we say that Israel was really the first artificially created state since it was made by the UN and not by the people who could make a claim to it? Should the UN rule that the US was rightfully owned by the native Americans and give it all back to them?

How could the UN create a State in someone else's country? Would you let 'em redistribute your trousers? We are not living in prehistory - there has been a development of International Law since American ethnic cleansing gave the Nazis their model.

They could create a state because they were given the authority to do so by the country controlling the land--namely, England.

 

[arkirk]

How could the UN create a State in someone else's country? Would you let 'em redistribute your trousers? We are not living in prehistory - there has been a development of International Law since American ethnic cleansing gave the Nazis their model.

They could create a state because they were given the authority to do so by the country controlling the land--namely, England.

So your idea of legitimate was Britain ruling and deciding. You are a real piece of work Loren! You would probably fall to your knees and genuflect if you were to meet the Queen. These people should have had absolutely zero to say about what happened in Palestine. They were invaders and occupiers and their only license was their military power. Begin was a terrorist and the Jews also cut off heads...of British troops and sent them to their mothers. We have no business supporting ANY SIDE AGAINST ANY SIDE IN GAZA. There are no innocents. The horrors these factions (Jews and Arabs) can be limited when we allow a balance of power to exist...that means we have to stop arming one side against another. Of course, that may lead to the slow down of some American arms manufacturers...a small price to pay for peace in the ME.

 

[bilby]

Yeah, yeah. Everyone in the Middle East are the Nazis.

So the Israel/Palestine thing is basically a spat between the Blackshirts and the Brownshirts.

As they don't seem to be planning to join hands and be happy little National Socialists together, could we perhaps stop Godwinning up the thread, and look for solutions?

Yes, yes, I know, 'Our side is blameless; THEY started it'.

Why are the three year olds in charge? Perhaps if the adults were allowed a say, things might improve?

 

[Loren Pechtel]

They could create a state because they were given the authority to do so by the country controlling the land--namely, England.

So your idea of legitimate was Britain ruling and deciding. You are a real piece of work Loren! You would probably fall to your knees and genuflect if you were to meet the Queen. These people should have had absolutely zero to say about what happened in Palestine. They were invaders and occupiers and their only license was their military power. Begin was a terrorist and the Jews also cut off heads...of British troops and sent them to their mothers. We have no business supporting ANY SIDE AGAINST ANY SIDE IN GAZA. There are no innocents. The horrors these factions (Jews and Arabs) can be limited when we allow a balance of power to exist...that means we have to stop arming one side against another. Of course, that may lead to the slow down of some American arms manufacturers...a small price to pay for peace in the ME.

I don't recall the sequence of events that left England in charge of the land. They were, though.

 

[bilby]

So your idea of legitimate was Britain ruling and deciding. You are a real piece of work Loren! You would probably fall to your knees and genuflect if you were to meet the Queen. These people should have had absolutely zero to say about what happened in Palestine. They were invaders and occupiers and their only license was their military power. Begin was a terrorist and the Jews also cut off heads...of British troops and sent them to their mothers. We have no business supporting ANY SIDE AGAINST ANY SIDE IN GAZA. There are no innocents. The horrors these factions (Jews and Arabs) can be limited when we allow a balance of power to exist...that means we have to stop arming one side against another. Of course, that may lead to the slow down of some American arms manufacturers...a small price to pay for peace in the ME.

I don't recall the sequence of events that left England in charge of the land. They were, though.

The British and French made a secret agreement in 1916 as to who would get what parts of the Ottoman Empire, should it be defeated; Neither the Arab nor Zionist factions were keen to have the French in charge, for various reasons, and so after the collapse of the Ottoman Empire in 1918, the British took over; and in 1922, the League of Nations ratified the British Mandate to govern the parts of what had been Ottoman Syria, and were then known as Palestine 'Until such time as they could govern themselves'.

It seems to me that perhaps the British should still be in charge by the terms of that mandate, as none of the people of the region seem capable of governing a popsicle stand. But of course, the British quite wisely want nothing to do with that shitty mess.

 

[angelo]

So your idea of legitimate was Britain ruling and deciding. You are a real piece of work Loren! You would probably fall to your knees and genuflect if you were to meet the Queen. These people should have had absolutely zero to say about what happened in Palestine. They were invaders and occupiers and their only license was their military power. Begin was a terrorist and the Jews also cut off heads...of British troops and sent them to their mothers. We have no business supporting ANY SIDE AGAINST ANY SIDE IN GAZA. There are no innocents. The horrors these factions (Jews and Arabs) can be limited when we allow a balance of power to exist...that means we have to stop arming one side against another. Of course, that may lead to the slow down of some American arms manufacturers...a small price to pay for peace in the ME.

I don't recall the sequence of events that left England in charge of the land. They were, though.

The spoils of victory over the Ottoman empire.

 

[Arctish]

I don't recall the sequence of events that left England in charge of the land. They were, though.

The spoils of victory over the Ottoman empire.

I imagine it went something like this:

King George: How do you do, good lady. I am George, King of the Britons. Whose castle is that?

Woman: King of the who?

King George: The Britons.

Woman: Who are the Britons?

King George: Well, I'm a Briton... And I am your king.

Woman: I didn't know we had a king... I thought we were a semi-autonomous district under an elected Administrative Council.

Dennis: You're foolin' yourself. We're livin' in a dictatorship! A self-perpetuating autocracy in which the working classes...

Woman: (interrupting) Oh there you go, bringing class into it again...

Dennis: That's what it's all about! If only people would...

King George: Please, please, good people, I am in haste. Who lives in that castle?

Woman: No one lives there.

King George: Then who is your lord?

Woman: We don't have a lord.

King George: What?

Dennis: We told you. We're a semi-autonomous district with an elected council that has power over the usual fuctions of government like finance, education, resource distribution...

King George: Yes.

Dennis: ...and we have communal property managed by appointed members of the extended families that own them...

King George: Yes I see.

Dennis: ...and we have communal property controlled by villages and managed by appointed village elders, but with input from the villagers ...

King George: Be quiet!

Dennis: ...usually by a simple majority but by a two-thirds majority in the case of more major...

King George: Be quiet! I order you to be quiet!

Woman: Order, eh? Who does he think he is?

King George: I am your king!

Woman: Well I didn't vote for you!

King George: You don't vote for kings.

Woman: Well how'd you become king then?

[Angelic music plays...]

King George: The other European powers, their arms clad in the blood of the defeated Turks, held aloft a Mandate from the bosom of the continent, signifying by their earthly providence that I, King George, was to rule in Palestine. THAT is why I am your king!

Dennis: (interrupting) Listen, strange people lyin' in backrooms distributin' land they don't own and never lived in is no basis for a system of government! Supreme executive power derives from a mandate from the masses, not from some trumped-up bureaucratic shenanigans!

King George: Be quiet!

Dennis: You can't expect to wield supreme executive power just because some pasty-faced paper-pusher threw a document at you!

King George: SHUT UP!

Dennis: Why, if I went 'round sayin' I was Emperor, just because some Deputy Undersecretary in Cairo lobbed a papyrus at me, they'd put me away!

King George: SHUT UP! WILL YOU SHUT UP! [Grabs Dennis]

Dennis: Ah! Now we see the violence inherent in the system!

King George: SHUT UP!

Dennis: Oh, come and see the violence inherent in the system! Help! Help! I'm being repressed!

 

[coloradoatheist]

I don't recall the sequence of events that left England in charge of the land. They were, though.

The spoils of victory over the Ottoman empire.

That's pretty much how that land was always controlled. It was one group or another who took it from someone else. It now just continues but we have a different set of rules compared to the rules in place in that land the last 3,000 or more years.

 

[Sarpedon]

The innovation was the concept of a 'Mandate.' This was a novel idea, differing from a colony in that the more powerful nation was expected to grant independence to the mandate eventually. However, the british administered their colonies and mandates in a way that benefited the United Kingdom, not the governed areas. The entire world is polluted with the fallout from their arbitrary decisions related to the lands they conquered.

 

[untermensche]

The world could use a lot more Python.

 

[angelo]

There's not too many countries on the planet that weren't conquered by some empire or other throughout it's history.

 

[Will Wiley]

There's not too many countries on the planet that weren't conquered by some empire or other throughout it's history.

I see what you are getting at. Therefore it was ok for Israel to steal land and murder and rape people.

 

[angelo]

There's not too many countries on the planet that weren't conquered by some empire or other throughout it's history.

I see what you are getting at. Therefore it was ok for Israel to steal land and murder and rape people.

For the 100th time, Israel has done no such thing. Their original UN mandate increased due to the Arabs refusing to accept a Jewish state. In all previous wars started by the Arabs, Israel took and kept some territory. They returned to Egypt the whole of the Sinai peninsula in exchange for a peace treaty. Apologists that demand Israel go back to the 67 borders is no longer feasible because of security concerns, plus it will not assure them peace. Arabs will accept gifts, but not return any!