New Study Confirms That American Workers Are Getting Ripped Off

[ruby sparks]

And since autoworkers are no longer paid that much they must be starving and living on the streets

Or they are eking out a living on minimum wage. Or they have readjusted their skill sets and are getting much the same pay in construction or engineering. Or they.....

No, they get paid much less now than before the shit hit the fan in 2008. And as someone who actually starved and was homeless while having a full time job with university degree (not the american B.S. degree, an actual science degree) don't give a fuck about these fat union asses who were getting $100K salaries and still complained.

I had no idea that assembly line workers were getting anything like $100k back then, let alone complaining about it.

 

[barbos]

No, they get paid much less now than before the shit hit the fan in 2008. And as someone who actually starved and was homeless while having a full time job with university degree (not the american B.S. degree, an actual science degree) don't give a fuck about these fat union asses who were getting $100K salaries and still complained.

I had no idea that assembly line workers were getting anything like $100k back then, let alone complaining about it.

I was not aware of that either. But with proper seniority they were, and they did complain when it became clear that it can't continue and they have to take 50% cut. Also I remember being surprised to learn that cleaning stuff at university was unionized and getting more than $30k a year, it was when postdocs were in $40-50K range. At least I knew I could leave stuff at work without worrying about it getting stolen.

 

[JohnG]

The system is free market capitalism. The economy is driven by profit and return on investments, period. Jobs and rising standards of living are side effects. Wages and labor demand vary with supply and demand.

You will have to elaborate on what you mean by ripped off. Of course there are systemic inequities.

What does the typical American worker have today compared to 50 years ago? Computers, multiplr family cars, a motorcycle, wireless devices and so on. The medical technology available today was unheard of in the 50s.

In 1950s buying power middle class was a small house, a car, washer, dryer, black and white TV, and a two week vacation. The variety of goods people can afford today was unthinkable in the 50s. The food 24/7 in supermarkets is staggering in context.

Workers are getting ripped off...yea tea yea. Get out your Castro beret and man the barricades.

Some "typical" American workers now have a tent or cardboard box under the freeway on ramp, and a shady place to take a dump. Our economy for working people is virtually in the toilet. Let's stop bullshitting ourselves. We are in a terrible fix and we have last years rotting Holloween pumpkin guiding our Titanic nation on its merry way.

This is the kind of thinking that gave us Trump.

The thinking wasn't wrong, the reaction was wrong.

 

[Harry Bosch]

This is the kind of thinking that gave us Trump.

The thinking wasn't wrong, the reaction was wrong.

Please show me a typical American worker living in a cardboard box! Let's not go off the tracks here. A near poverty wage American is still in the top 1% of salary earners in the world. We are incredibly fortunate to live in the US. Having said that, the middle class has been in relative decline. There's no doubt about that. There are ways to turn the tide: economic development, increasing training, lowering barriers to training and education, increasing trade and services, opening markets up, incentives to encourage entrepreunership, and etc. The republicans solution to turn the tide is to appeal to fear: blame immigrants, blame trade, blame NATO, blame title 9, blame environmentalists, blame scientists, blame Muslims, and etc. The republicans are going to throw us into a recession that is going to hurt the middle class.

 

[ZiprHead]

http://work.chron.com/average-pay-auto-workers-union-member-24071.html

I am aware that threatened with losing everything unions agreed to 50% cut for new hires, and if I remember correctly $100k workers were bribed into early retirements. Think about it a little.
Unions through their power of extortion were able to double they wages. So fuck these scambags, they are no better than $20mil/year CEOs

BTW, my father was one of those higher paid auto workers. He got that pay because he was a journeyman electrician. Not a line worker.

So he was a professor compared to them.

I guess you have no knowledge of how hard a factory electrician works. Spend a day pulling and bending 000000 cable then come back and let me know.

And BTW, he died from the asbestosis he got from that job.

 

[barbos]

I am aware that threatened with losing everything unions agreed to 50% cut for new hires, and if I remember correctly $100k workers were bribed into early retirements. Think about it a little.
Unions through their power of extortion were able to double they wages. So fuck these scambags, they are no better than $20mil/year CEOs


So he was a professor compared to them.

I guess you have no knowledge of how hard a factory electrician works. Spend a day pulling and bending 000000 cable then come back and let me know.

Funny you mentioned it, but I actually did a lot of cable pulling. First in the army then during experiments. There was a lot of heavy lifting and heavy cable pulling through dusty places. And I was paid $50/month. I also worked on a brick making "joint" but only for a month, when I was a kid. I can't believe that was legal to to breath that amount of dust.

And BTW, he died from the asbestosis he got from that job.

Sorry to hear that.

 

[ruby sparks]

No, they get paid much less now than before the shit hit the fan in 2008. And as someone who actually starved and was homeless while having a full time job with university degree (not the american B.S. degree, an actual science degree) don't give a fuck about these fat union asses who were getting $100K salaries and still complained.

I had no idea that assembly line workers were getting anything like $100k back then, let alone complaining about it.

I was not aware of that either. But with proper seniority they were, and they did complain when it became clear that it can't continue and they have to take 50% cut. Also I remember being surprised to learn that cleaning stuff at university was unionized and getting more than $30k a year, it was when postdocs were in $40-50K range. At least I knew I could leave stuff at work without worrying about it getting stolen.

I'm not against unions. That said, I've never belonged to one and I don't know the ins and outs of the American situation (or yours if you aren't American), but by and large I see unions as more protecting workers and getting them a fair deal.

I work for myself and earn about £35k. I've been in my profession over 30 years (architect) and I did 7 years at university. I hear what you're saying. Many professions are relatively underpaid, for most who practice in them, and that would for example include many academics, engineers and suchlike. So your complaint is valid of itself (albeit I'm guessing that the 'average' assembly line worker didn't get anything like $100k).

I myself do moan, sometimes, about what others get (mostly footballers) but as the years have gone by, I do it less and less. On the whole, there are probably only a minority of people in the world better off than me, either materially or financially or in several other ways. Sometimes I think that happiness is a lot about who one compares oneself to. To those that earn much better money I say, 'good luck to you', because it almost never adversely affects how much I myself earn. On the whole in fact, if organisations like unions can ensure that others get decent money, it's a good thing, for the society I'm in, even if it never means my earnings are going to be raised in turn. It's better than a race to the bottom. I accept that it can be irritating to hear about at dinner parties though and I am not saying I don't suffer from jealousy.

It has to be said that my wife also works, in a public sector (and therefore unionised) job and gets about £45k. So our total family income is about £80k (ie approximately the aforementioned $100k). But we both work hard for that, are both in our 50's (so very experienced at our jobs and have put in the years) and we are currently putting two kids through university and have all the usuals, including a big mortgage. I have to say that what we earn and what sort of lifestyle it buys us feels like enough, with our main 'sacrifices' being not having private healthcare, cable tv or newish cars.

One caveat would be that I had to stop paying into my private pension about 10 years ago because of the recession and losing my job along with 50+% of my profession, and my pension plan wasn't too luxury to begin with and plummeted during the recession. So when we retire, we'll be selling the house, downsizing radically, paying off the (interest-only) mortgage and using the leftovers (on top of my wife's pension) to help us through old age, if there are any leftovers. Lol. If I'm lucky with my health and can stay abreast of technology, I'll be working until I'm 70 and afterwards there won't be any cruises (I'm not much bothered though) and the NHS is creaking so I won't be counting on fab healthcare when I start to deteriorate.

Now, I don't know your predicament. You may be younger than me and not yet have gained a decent foothold on the property ladder and so on, so I'm not chiding you. You are probably underpaid in comparison to a section of your society.

 

[ZiprHead]

Funny you mentioned it, but I actually did a lot of cable pulling. First in the army then during experiments. There was a lot of heavy lifting and heavy cable pulling through dusty places. And I was paid $50/month. I also worked on a brick making "joint" but only for a month, when I was a kid. I can't believe that was legal to to breath that amount of dust.

So because you were underpaid, my father was over paid. Got it.

 

[barbos]

Funny you mentioned it, but I actually did a lot of cable pulling. First in the army then during experiments. There was a lot of heavy lifting and heavy cable pulling through dusty places. And I was paid $50/month. I also worked on a brick making "joint" but only for a month, when I was a kid. I can't believe that was legal to to breath that amount of dust.

So because you were underpaid, my father was over paid. Got it.

Not exactly, first, $50/month was in Russia, so it's not directly comparable ($50 was enough to eat and nothing else) Second, your father was not in the union, so he could not possibly extort his salary. But yeah, $100k seems a little high, but if he worked a lot then it's possible.
And third. $100k assembly workers were just overpaid, that's just simple mathematical fact. Now the fact that I was underpaid is not relevant here but it does give me a right to tell them "Go and fuck yourself" In fact pretty much anybody has that right (except CEOs) So these CEOs could have hired me to have negotiations with the Union, I would have no troubles telling them what I think about them and their mothers.

 

[ZiprHead]

Funny you mentioned it, but I actually did a lot of cable pulling. First in the army then during experiments. There was a lot of heavy lifting and heavy cable pulling through dusty places. And I was paid $50/month. I also worked on a brick making "joint" but only for a month, when I was a kid. I can't believe that was legal to to breath that amount of dust.

So because you were underpaid, my father was over paid. Got it.

Not exactly, first, $50/month was in Russia, so it's not directly comparable ($50 was enough to eat and nothing else) Second, your father was not in the union, so he could not possibly extort his salary. But yeah, $100k seems a little high, but if he worked a lot then it's possible.
And third. $100k assembly workers were just overpaid, that's just simple mathematical fact. Now the fact that I was underpaid is not relevant here but it does give me a right to tell them "Go and fuck yourself" In fact pretty much anybody has that right (except CEOs) So these CEOs could have hired me to have negotiations with the Union, I would have no troubles telling them what I think about them and their mothers.

I challenge you to find a $100K union auto worker.

And what makes you think my father wasn't a union member. He was a proud member of the UAW.

ETA: You sound very jealous to me. You know, the way rightists accuse liberals of jealousy when they talk about wealth disparity.

 

[barbos]

Not exactly, first, $50/month was in Russia, so it's not directly comparable ($50 was enough to eat and nothing else) Second, your father was not in the union, so he could not possibly extort his salary. But yeah, $100k seems a little high, but if he worked a lot then it's possible.
And third. $100k assembly workers were just overpaid, that's just simple mathematical fact. Now the fact that I was underpaid is not relevant here but it does give me a right to tell them "Go and fuck yourself" In fact pretty much anybody has that right (except CEOs) So these CEOs could have hired me to have negotiations with the Union, I would have no troubles telling them what I think about them and their mothers.

I challenge you to find a $100K union auto worker.

OK, your father (according to your own testimony)
But seriously, that's what I read in 2008. Now, they don't get that much which kinda proves that they were overpaid.

And what makes you think my father wasn't a union member. He was a proud member of the UAW.

ETA: You sound very jealous to me. You know, the way rightists accuse liberals of jealousy when they talk about wealth disparity.

I thought (from the context) journeyman meant something like contractor, now I looked it up.
Well, my point is. Excluding special circumstances, you can't have a worker which can be replaced with a random able looking man from the street after 3 months training be paid more than University Professor. So if I to be an auto CEO (real one) and union critters come to me demanding up to $100k wages, I would tell them, go and get a PhD first then you will have your $100k working at the assembly line.

 

[Horatio Parker]

OK, your father (according to your own testimony)
But seriously, that' what I read in 2008. Now, they don't get that much which kinda proves that they were overpaid.

And what makes you think my father wasn't a union member. He was a proud member of the UAW.

ETA: You sound very jealous to me. You know, the way rightists accuse liberals of jealousy when they talk about wealth disparity.

I thought (from the context) journeyman meant something like contractor, now I looked it up.
Well, my point is. Excluding special circumstances, you can't have a worker which can be replaced with a random able looking man from the street after 3 months training be paid more than University Professor. So if I to be an auto CEO (real one) and union critters come to me demanding up to $100k wages, I would tell them, go and get a PhD first then you will have your $100k.

They usually come up with those figures by calculating all possible overtime. Like seven days a week working 11.5 hour shifts. When I worked in the shop during college, there were side departments doing that, but they would a get a 40 hour week every month or so. Assembly lines are too expensive to run like that, anyway that's what I was told. Workers who preferred free time to ot would pull seniority to get on the assembly lines.

 

[ZiprHead]

OK, your father (according to your own testimony)
But seriously, that's what I read in 2008. Now, they don't get that much which kinda proves that they were overpaid.

And what makes you think my father wasn't a union member. He was a proud member of the UAW.

ETA: You sound very jealous to me. You know, the way rightists accuse liberals of jealousy when they talk about wealth disparity.

I thought (from the context) journeyman meant something like contractor, now I looked it up.
Well, my point is. Excluding special circumstances, you can't have a worker which can be replaced with a random able looking man from the street after 3 months training be paid more than University Professor. So if I to be an auto CEO (real one) and union critters come to me demanding up to $100k wages, I would tell them, go and get a PhD first then you will have your $100k working at the assembly line.

The U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics reports that the average salary of a University Professor was $75,430 annually as of May 2016. The lowest-paid 10 percent of all University Professors earn less than $38,290, while the highest-paid 10 percent are paid more than $168,270 per year.

Source.

From my source about union auto worker pay, the top end is $38/hour. That's $79,000 annually for the top end skilled trades union autoworker. Just a tad more than the average college professor and no where near the top end of college professors. I think your comparison can be safely declared a fail.

 

[barbos]

OK, your father (according to your own testimony)
But seriously, that' what I read in 2008. Now, they don't get that much which kinda proves that they were overpaid.

And what makes you think my father wasn't a union member. He was a proud member of the UAW.

ETA: You sound very jealous to me. You know, the way rightists accuse liberals of jealousy when they talk about wealth disparity.

I thought (from the context) journeyman meant something like contractor, now I looked it up.
Well, my point is. Excluding special circumstances, you can't have a worker which can be replaced with a random able looking man from the street after 3 months training be paid more than University Professor. So if I to be an auto CEO (real one) and union critters come to me demanding up to $100k wages, I would tell them, go and get a PhD first then you will have your $100k.

They usually come up with those figures by calculating all possible overtime. Like seven days a week working 11.5 hour shifts. When I worked in the shop during college, there were side departments doing that, but they would a get a 40 hour week every month or so. Assembly lines are too expensive to run like that, anyway that's what I was told. Workers who preferred free time to ot would pull seniority to get on the assembly lines.

Are you saying the only way to get $100k in 2008 was to have serious overtime? Whole year of constant assembly line overtimes?
I guess it was cheaper to have already existing and limited number of union members to work overtime than to have more union members working 40 hours. In any case, $100k figure is what was told and the fact is, they took 50% cut in hourly pay according to posts here.
They were overpaid compared to non union Toyota&Co plants, that's just a fact.

 

[ZiprHead]

OK, your father (according to your own testimony)
But seriously, that' what I read in 2008. Now, they don't get that much which kinda proves that they were overpaid.

And what makes you think my father wasn't a union member. He was a proud member of the UAW.

ETA: You sound very jealous to me. You know, the way rightists accuse liberals of jealousy when they talk about wealth disparity.

I thought (from the context) journeyman meant something like contractor, now I looked it up.
Well, my point is. Excluding special circumstances, you can't have a worker which can be replaced with a random able looking man from the street after 3 months training be paid more than University Professor. So if I to be an auto CEO (real one) and union critters come to me demanding up to $100k wages, I would tell them, go and get a PhD first then you will have your $100k.

They usually come up with those figures by calculating all possible overtime. Like seven days a week working 11.5 hour shifts. When I worked in the shop during college, there were side departments doing that, but they would a get a 40 hour week every month or so. Assembly lines are too expensive to run like that, anyway that's what I was told. Workers who preferred free time to ot would pull seniority to get on the assembly lines.

Yeah, the general line workers weren't worked like that. Usually, the line workers were laid off for two to three weeks and collected unemployment during model year changeover. The skilled trades, electricians, pipefitters, welders, etc. put in huge amounts of hours to prepare for the new model production.

 

[ZiprHead]

Are you saying the only way to get $100k in 2008 was to have serious overtime?

I'll come right out and say your $100K autoworker is a myth, a legend, outright bull shit. The shakeup in auto worker pay was way before 2008.

 

[barbos]

The U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics reports that the average salary of a University Professor was $75,430 annually as of May 2016. The lowest-paid 10 percent of all University Professors earn less than $38,290, while the highest-paid 10 percent are paid more than $168,270 per year.

Source.

From my source about union auto worker pay, the top end is $38/hour. That's $79,000 annually for the top end skilled trades union autoworker. Just a tad more than the average college professor and no where near the top end of college professors. I think your comparison can be safely declared a fail.

How is that a fail?
Some professors are paid close to $1mil, so I guess my comparison is even more fail?
My point was and still is, you can't have assembly line workers paid more than any professor, even english literature ones. Ok you can have more than english literature but that's a line I draw.
To be fair I don't consider english literature professors real professors. I really talk about STEM.

 

[barbos]

Are you saying the only way to get $100k in 2008 was to have serious overtime?

I'll come right out and say your $100K autoworker is a myth, a legend, outright bull shit. The shakeup in auto worker pay was way before 2008.

First, that's what I read, second, 2007? I distinctly remember shit hitting the fan in 2007, but it was just a beginning of the financial crisis. Does not change the fact itself.

 

[ZiprHead]

The U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics reports that the average salary of a University Professor was $75,430 annually as of May 2016. The lowest-paid 10 percent of all University Professors earn less than $38,290, while the highest-paid 10 percent are paid more than $168,270 per year.

Source.

From my source about union auto worker pay, the top end is $38/hour. That's $79,000 annually for the top end skilled trades union autoworker. Just a tad more than the average college professor and no where near the top end of college professors. I think your comparison can be safely declared a fail.

How is that a fail?
Some professors are paid close to $1mil, so I guess my comparison is even more fail?
My point is and still are, you can't have assembly line workers paid more than any professor, even english literature ones. Ok you can have more than english literature but that's a line I draw.

Why not?

- - - Updated - - -

Are you saying the only way to get $100k in 2008 was to have serious overtime?

I'll come right out and say your $100K autoworker is a myth, a legend, outright bull shit. The shakeup in auto worker pay was way before 2008.

First, that's what I read, second, 2007? I distinctly remember shit hitting the fan in 2007, but it was just a beginning of the financial crisis. Does not change the fact itself.

I read that Barbos is a poopyhead.

And way before 2007 too.

 

[ruby sparks]

ETA: You sound very jealous to me. You know, the way rightists accuse liberals of jealousy when they talk about wealth disparity.

Jealousy I can understand and sympathise with, especially if you are (and I'm not assuming barbos is this because I don't know) an academically-qualified person who is not getting fab pay compared to some others. That's broadly been my category for my working life. And it used to bother me a lot, not so much now.

But if one is what seems to be labelled a 'rightist' (and again I'm not talking about barbos because I don't know his position) it would be a bit odd, in some ways, to object to unions (arguably 'leftist' organisations) on the grounds that they would hypothetically get you better pay. I'm not saying they do or did, and I'm not saying they should or could, or that it would be sustainable economically.