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New Study Confirms That American Workers Are Getting Ripped Off

I'm no expert, but, I have lived through inflation cycles in a 'stable' economy that varied between negative four percent and positive 12% inflation levels - I am calling disruption any economy that produces more then 12% unemployment or less than 2% inflation or asymmetric or distorted productivity in any major category like energy, finance, housing, etc.- without causing either major social nor economic disruption.

We are currently operating under the guiding hand of about two percent inflation being healthy. I see no problem in letting inflation grow some to keep the natives from revolting which is what seems to be happening in places where water and food are scarce. We obviously need to adjust population and water availability either by migration or by technology. there ase social and economic costs to both, but, it seems major changes can be tolerated if we put our backs to the task.
 
Really? you're basically saying here "giving 100% raise to everybody is no problem"
Well, technically it's no problem if you accept corresponding 100% inflation.

Once upon a time the ratio between the highest earners and the lowest was not as great as it is now, yet it did not create a problem with excessive rates of inflation.

Scandinavian nations are more equatable....including their happiness rating being higher than many other countries
$100k autoworkers are not the lowest earners here. I have no problem with giving a raise to walmart folk and taking money from CEOs.
I just find it disgusting that these $100k workers are somehow OK and not the problem. it's not just CEOs vs the rest, it's workers vs workers when people are doing essentially the same work and get paid vastly different wages.
And to clarify I am talking about the time around 2008 when US car makers were in troubles. I don't know how much auto unions pay themselves now. Maybe it's not $100k anymore.
 
There is a limit to how much of a raise that one can give everybody......

Except for the people at the top of the dictatorships that is.

Somehow these people get amazing raises that can't be explained by anything actually happening in the world all the time.

They have gotten so many raises and so large there is no connection between their pay and what they can do. They are paid as if they are miracle workers.

It is a system of shared delusion.

But very good for the dictators.
 
My hate is not blind, I can see that something is wrong when assembly line auto worker gets more than a postdoc or even professor.

Your logic is broken.

"I am unfairly underpaid, therefore I should campaign for everyone else to be unfairly underpaid" is a truly idiotic (but very human) idea.

You should hate the people who underpay you, not the people who are fortunate enough not to be underpaid.
Nope, it's your logic which is broken. I realize that if I take union auto workers $100k as an untouchable standard of fairness then postdoc would have to be paid $150k professor $300k and wallmart cashier 50k which is clearly unsustainable. $100k for assembly line workers is ridiculous, it does not have any basis in market economy. its basis is in union corruption and outreach.

From source: Roughly speaking, the average hourly pay for a member of the United Auto Workers currently ranges from $28 to $38 or so for those hired before September 2007, and between $16 and $20 for workers hired afterward.

http://work.chron.com/average-pay-auto-workers-union-member-24071.html

BTW, my father was one of those higher paid auto workers. He got that pay because he was a journeyman electrician. Not a line worker.
 
It is nothing like the current system that pays workers as little as possible.

It will be a system where workers are paid as much as possible.

And just like the dictators now like to work very little, they like best when they profit and do no work at all, the workers in control will want the same thing.

Which means they will hire as many workers as possible.

Your support for dictatorship is not only disloyal to humanity, it is also a way to make the lives of workers as difficult as possible.

It is pure common sense that the way to make the lives of workers as easy as possible requires empowering workers and eliminating dictators.

You're preaching, not addressing the point.

You're dancing. Avoiding my clear points.

You have no answer.

You support dictatorship.

I'm sorry if you think people that dislike dictators are preaching.

You're preaching, not making points.
 
Nope, it's your logic which is broken. I realize that if I take union auto workers $100k as a untouchable standard of fairness then postdoc would have to be paid $150k professor $300k and wallmart cashier 50k which is clearly unsustainable. $100k for assembly line workers is ridiculous, it does not have any basis in market economy.

I see nothing obviously 'ridiculous' nor obviously unsustainable about any of those rates of pay. Lots of people earn that kind of money, and even more, without doing anything as skillful or as productive as those various jobs.

The economy as a whole is clearly sufficiently productive to pay those rates - as long as the ratio of profits to wages is allowed to return to pre-automation levels. And whether that should happen is a purely arbitrary political decision, not an economic one.

1) Got some numbers to support that insane assumption?

2) It is an economic issue far more than a political issue.

3) Under your economics the companies don't automate in the first place, even if your numbers worked they wouldn't happen.

4) Assuming your system actually worked what would happen? Most people would be unemployed.
 
You're dancing. Avoiding my clear points.

You have no answer.

You support dictatorship.

I'm sorry if you think people that dislike dictators are preaching.

You're preaching, not making points.

You're dodging.

You claim that workers will for some reason not hire sufficient workers so their life is harder.

That is what dictators do.

You have things absolutely backwards.
 
There is a limit to how much of a raise that one can give everybody: the gross domestic product per worker. For the US, that is about $115,000 per year, and for 52 weeks per year, 5 days per week, and 8 hours per day, that is $55/hour.

The proposed raise of minimum wage to $15 is less than 1/3 of that, something that puts into perspective certain people's howls that it will lead to economic Götterdämmerung.

More like showing your lack of understanding of the economics.

Gross domestic product includes all production. Much of that production is used by business and never reaches the consumer.

Lets look at the economics where I used to work. Roughly 1/3 of our gross went to payroll. You look at that and figure we could do $15/hr. But what of that ~60% that we spent on other things? Something like half went for wood. Most of that was not very processed so I'll figure it as coming from lumber mills. (In reality a certain amount is due to overhead and shipping, but I don't know the numbers) The remainder, though? Facilities, tools and utilities. Now, all of these have to go back many steps to get to raw materials. Those steps also contribute to the GDP.

Even with the most simplistic assumption we are at only one fifth of the relevant GDP to labor and in one tenth is probably closer to the truth.
 
Nope, it's your logic which is broken. I realize that if I take union auto workers $100k as a untouchable standard of fairness then postdoc would have to be paid $150k professor $300k and wallmart cashier 50k which is clearly unsustainable. $100k for assembly line workers is ridiculous, it does not have any basis in market economy.

I see nothing obviously 'ridiculous' nor obviously unsustainable about any of those rates of pay. Lots of people earn that kind of money, and even more, without doing anything as skillful or as productive as those various jobs.

The economy as a whole is clearly sufficiently productive to pay those rates - as long as the ratio of profits to wages is allowed to return to pre-automation levels. And whether that should happen is a purely arbitrary political decision, not an economic one.

1) Got some numbers to support that insane assumption?

2) It is an economic issue far more than a political issue.

3) Under your economics the companies don't automate in the first place, even if your numbers worked they wouldn't happen.

4) Assuming your system actually worked what would happen? Most people would be unemployed.

I haven't proposed a 'system'. I have proposed bringing the ratio of wages to profits back to its historical level.

Your response is both predictable and counterfactual.
 
If worker productivity has increased by 500% in X years but worker standard of living has only increased by 100% in the same time that still means workers are being ripped off.

Lets look at those numbers because that's pretty close to what I saw at my previous job.

Except for the little detail of whether they were being ripped off. It's not that the workers were working any harder. (If anything, I think the reverse was true as many jobs changed from actually doing work to assisting the machine doing the work.) Rather, that 500% increase was due to automation. Millions of dollars worth of machinery, I think 4 of us on staff whose job was building stuff we couldn't simply buy (And plenty of tools for us, also.) (I'm not sure of the exact number because as a purely software guy I had basically zero contact with the purely machinery guys.)

Productivity is defined as a production per hours worked. Of course, improving productivity means that workers produce more in the hours that they work. They work less to produce the same number of products.


I assume from your descriptions of this work here and in other threads that what you did wasn't so much automation of your production but mechanization of previously manual operations. Automation and mechanization are terms of art which don't register as being different to anyone not in the business and there is no practical difference for the purpose of our discussion here.



This is a normal and desirable feature of our economy. And it has been since the start of the industrial revolution. In fact, you would not get an argument from me if you said that increasing productivity along with fostering innovation is the essence of the industrial revolution.

What is different now has nothing to do with economics. It has nothing to do with a mysterious, unknown and apparently unknowable technical change that has excluded the technically unwashed from benefiting from this progress. It has nothing to do with the rate of change in the technology, we have been at the same high rate of change for a century or more. We first flew in 1903. We walked on the moon 66 years after that. We explained EMF and the photoelectric effect either side of the turn of the 20th century and one hundred years later we are all walking around with super computers in our pockets.

What has changed is that some of us, like you, have decided that a very few people should share in the rewards from this progress. And for the most part the people that you have picked to receive this bounty from the progress have had absolutely nothing to do with the innovation or the increases in productivity.

In fact, you would deny the people who did develop the innovations and the increases in productivity any of the bounty. And like your relentless and recurring push to increase the costs of medical care in the US to provide a very few people with unearned profits from health care, the people who you picked to share exclusively in the largess from progress are the rentiers, capitalism overhead, the bankers, the insurance companies, the unearned income hangers on. Capitalism works best when we provide incentives for innovation and productivity increases and when we provide disincentives for the rentiers. You seem to be opposed to both of these and to propose that we do exactly the opposite.

I am often asked how I would handle the coming wave of automation that will "put everyone out of work". I would think that this is a better question for you considering that you believe that the shareholders should be handed all of the rewards from innovation and increases in productivity and that the workers should be given none of it. That in fact they deserve to lose their jobs as result of the automation. Doing this will continue to reduce the growth in the economy. This is of course the attitude of other neoliberals and I think that it is an accurate summary of your position.

Of course, by rewarding the shareholders with the gains from the increased productivity you have upheld the traditions of not only the neoliberals but also of conservatives. You are proposing that we reward the one group that contributed nothing to the increase in productivity or to the innovation. And in that you are wrong, upholding the traditions of conservatism, which is always wrong when discussing the problems that we face today.

What we need to do rather than rewarding the non-participants is to increase the workers pay in some way. By paying them more, or reducing the hours that they work, increasing their leisure time. Or by reducing the retirement age. This is how we handled the largest mechanization conversion in history, mechanization of agriculture in the last half of the 19th century and the first half of the 20th century.

We could reverse the trend for the cost a college education to be borne by the students or their parents and to eliminate graduates to having to take out student loans that guarantee decades of not being able to take their place in society because of crushing debt. This is would help the economy in so many ways. It would keep more people in college for longer, delaying by years their need to find a job. Coupled with earlier retirement we could easily cut seven years out of the expected average working lifetime. And we will gain many better educated workers who have experienced college.

How would I pay for all of this? The same way we paid for it when we did this after World War II with the GI bill. With taxes on the rich, by reducing the richest people's effective income. This would have immediate, positive effects. It is would reduce their ability to run up real estate values which is what we do now by providing them excessive amounts of money from profits currently bloated by suppressing wages. This will reduce the housing costs for the workers, and the part of the corporate wage bill that goes to housing costs, the largest single burden on the corporate wage bill.

By taxing the rich we would not only reduce the inflation in the real estate market we would also reduce the inflation in the stock market. I suspect that you remember when the acceptable stock valuation was a price to earnings ratio of 10 to 1. Now it is what, 40 to 1? This is all to justify the huge amount of inflation that has occurred in the stock market as your beloved neoliberalism has converted wages into profits. Prior to neoliberalism the workers and the shareholders shared in the rewards from innovation and the increases in the workers productivity.

And I am not talking about doing this by government fiat like you are, by the government defining that the shareholder, non-participants in the work of the corporation, are the owners of the corporation and that as such they deserve all of the benefits from the innovation and increases in productivity. That the sole purpose of the corporation is to make profits for the passive investors who did absolutely nothing to advance the endeavor, not even, as you have repeatedly incorrectly asserted, the money with which to buy and install the machinery for the expansion and the mechanization, which came from the profits earned by the corporation and its workers, whether retained earnings or the future anticipated profits to pay off a loan or to pay off bonds.

I want to restore the workers ability to negotiate with their employers collectively, to remove some of the current barriers to the unions that with your enthusiastic support have been erected by your fellow neoliberals. The most effective and least contentious way to handle wage negotiations is what is called industrial sector negotiations This is norm in Germany, used to protect both the employees and the employers. The union members' wages are keyed to one important trade in an industrial sector. We built classic capital machines used to manufacture products for sale, our key trade was a machinist. Everyone's wages in the industrial sector are a ratio of the machinist's wages. Tool & die makers earned 12% more than the machinists and janitors made 75% of what the machinists make, etc. all through the company, through the industrial sector, and finally through the entire economy. Then once a year the representatives of the employers and the unions sit down with the representatives of state governments and they negotiate how much the basic wage rates will go up or down depending on how well the industry sector has done, on average. Yes, that is correct, if say the automobile sector was depressed, wages could be lowered in the entire industry sector to give it a boost and to forestall unemployment. It hasn't happened very often, but it has happened.

The reason that it reduces contention between the management and the union is because it takes the negotiation for the wage rate out of the hands of a single company and its union. The union has the same goals as the management, to be successful and to make money. In a recession everybody's wages go down.

It also removes competitive pressures from the wage rate, since everyone pays the same wages in the same industry.
 
1) Got some numbers to support that insane assumption?

2) It is an economic issue far more than a political issue.

3) Under your economics the companies don't automate in the first place, even if your numbers worked they wouldn't happen.

4) Assuming your system actually worked what would happen? Most people would be unemployed.

I haven't proposed a 'system'. I have proposed bringing the ratio of wages to profits back to its historical level.

Your response is both predictable and counterfactual.

To get back to the wage::profit ratio you want we also have to go back to the historical levels of automation. Oops, that's a major cut to our standard of living.
 
Nope, it's your logic which is broken. I realize that if I take union auto workers $100k as an untouchable standard of fairness then postdoc would have to be paid $150k professor $300k and wallmart cashier 50k which is clearly unsustainable. $100k for assembly line workers is ridiculous, it does not have any basis in market economy. its basis is in union corruption and outreach.

From source: Roughly speaking, the average hourly pay for a member of the United Auto Workers currently ranges from $28 to $38 or so for those hired before September 2007, and between $16 and $20 for workers hired afterward.

http://work.chron.com/average-pay-auto-workers-union-member-24071.html
I am aware that threatened with losing everything unions agreed to 50% cut for new hires, and if I remember correctly $100k workers were bribed into early retirements. Think about it a little.
Unions through their power of extortion were able to double they wages. So fuck these scambags, they are no better than $20mil/year CEOs

BTW, my father was one of those higher paid auto workers. He got that pay because he was a journeyman electrician. Not a line worker.
So he was a professor compared to them.
 
If worker productivity has increased by 500% in X years but worker standard of living has only increased by 100% in the same time that still means workers are being ripped off.

Lets look at those numbers because that's pretty close to what I saw at my previous job.

Except for the little detail of whether they were being ripped off. It's not that the workers were working any harder. (If anything, I think the reverse was true as many jobs changed from actually doing work to assisting the machine doing the work.) Rather, that 500% increase was due to automation. Millions of dollars worth of machinery, I think 4 of us on staff whose job was building stuff we couldn't simply buy (And plenty of tools for us, also.) (I'm not sure of the exact number because as a purely software guy I had basically zero contact with the purely machinery guys.)

Productivity is defined as a production per hours worked. Of course, improving productivity means that workers produce more in the hours that they work. They work less to produce the same number of products.


I assume from your descriptions of this work here and in other threads that what you did wasn't so much automation of your production but mechanization of previously manual operations. Automation and mechanization are terms of art which don't register as being different to anyone not in the business and there is no practical difference for the purpose of our discussion here.



After looking at Google I agree. I have never seen the terms used that way before--I would have applied "mechanization" to the little things where human labor was replaced with machine labor (for example, a machine that the work had to be fed into on each of it's 4 sides. Productivity went up when they put in a roller track that allowed the operator to stand still while doing this rather than having to retrieve it from the other side each time), but I would have applied "automation" to the machine that identifies the item about to be fed in, tells the operator which way to load it and then proceeds to drill the holes appropriate to the item that was put on the belt. We always called it "automation" if it was vitally important to it's function to have a computer at it's heart making decisions.



What is different now has nothing to do with economics. It has nothing to do with a mysterious, unknown and apparently unknowable technical change that has excluded the technically unwashed from benefiting from this progress. It has nothing to do with the rate of change in the technology, we have been at the same high rate of change for a century or more. We first flew in 1903. We walked on the moon 66 years after that. We explained EMF and the photoelectric effect either side of the turn of the 20th century and one hundred years later we are all walking around with super computers in our pockets.

Major objection! You say the rate of change is "same high"--which is very wrong. The rate of change is exponential. The reason the technically unwashed no longer benefit is that the marketplace no longer puts much value on typical levels of mechanical ability in most contexts. Machinery does an awful lot of such stuff now. These days the labor market values thinking--and for the vast majority of jobs that requires technological competence.

There is much more difference between a good thinker and a poor thinker than there is between the physical abilities of most workers. Brawn is simply not of much value when a readily available machine has more than the brawniest of humans.

In fact, you would deny the people who did develop the innovations and the increases in productivity any of the bounty. And like your relentless and recurring push to increase the costs of medical care in the US to provide a very few people with unearned profits from health care, the people who you picked to share exclusively in the largess from progress are the rentiers, capitalism overhead, the bankers, the insurance companies, the unearned income hangers on. Capitalism works best when we provide incentives for innovation and productivity increases and when we provide disincentives for the rentiers. You seem to be opposed to both of these and to propose that we do exactly the opposite.

I disagree. The bounty does show up as rising living standards for everyone. It's not like the rich hoard their gains--hoarded money does them no good. They invest it--which translates into spending. It spreads out through society.

I am often asked how I would handle the coming wave of automation that will "put everyone out of work". I would think that this is a better question for you considering that you believe that the shareholders should be handed all of the rewards from innovation and increases in productivity and that the workers should be given none of it. That in fact they deserve to lose their jobs as result of the automation. Doing this will continue to reduce the growth in the economy. This is of course the attitude of other neoliberals and I think that it is an accurate summary of your position.

I've already addressed this. Once we reach the point where there aren't enough jobs to go around the government will have to deal with it. I used to favor UBI, but now I think we would be better served by the government making jobs doing things which are useful but not actually economic to do.

What we need to do rather than rewarding the non-participants is to increase the workers pay in some way. By paying them more, or reducing the hours that they work, increasing their leisure time. Or by reducing the retirement age. This is how we handled the largest mechanization conversion in history, mechanization of agriculture in the last half of the 19th century and the first half of the 20th century.

Mechanization of agriculture caused people to go to the cities and work. People worked less because they could work less and survive.

We could reverse the trend for the cost a college education to be borne by the students or their parents and to eliminate graduates to having to take out student loans that guarantee decades of not being able to take their place in society because of crushing debt. This is would help the economy in so many ways. It would keep more people in college for longer, delaying by years their need to find a job. Coupled with earlier retirement we could easily cut seven years out of the expected average working lifetime. And we will gain many better educated workers who have experienced college.

I would like to see something done about the education situation but I don't think free schooling is the answer. I think a big part of it could be handled by computer-assisted education. You're wrong about wanting people to stay in school longer--the demand is for B.S. degrees, we have enough people with advanced degrees at present. And note that in the sciences you generally do not have to pay to go to school anyway.

How would I pay for all of this? The same way we paid for it when we did this after World War II with the GI bill. With taxes on the rich, by reducing the richest people's effective income. This would have immediate, positive effects. It is would reduce their ability to run up real estate values which is what we do now by providing them excessive amounts of money from profits currently bloated by suppressing wages. This will reduce the housing costs for the workers, and the part of the corporate wage bill that goes to housing costs, the largest single burden on the corporate wage bill.

Still ignoring the fact that the high tax rates back then were mostly fantasy.

By taxing the rich we would not only reduce the inflation in the real estate market we would also reduce the inflation in the stock market. I suspect that you remember when the acceptable stock valuation was a price to earnings ratio of 10 to 1. Now it is what, 40 to 1? This is all to justify the huge amount of inflation that has occurred in the stock market as your beloved neoliberalism has converted wages into profits. Prior to neoliberalism the workers and the shareholders shared in the rewards from innovation and the increases in the workers productivity.

40:1 is not reasonable. However, you apparently don't understand where proper stock prices come from. A rational investor will pay $1 for stock for which the net present value of the expected lifetime earnings exceeds $1. The net present value calculation includes the inflation rate--and remember that inflation is exponential. This makes a good P/E ratio highly sensitive to the estimated future inflation rate. We have driven down inflation for long enough that investors consider the current low rates to be normal, P/E ratios rose as a result.

That the sole purpose of the corporation is to make profits for the passive investors who did absolutely nothing to advance the endeavor, not even, as you have repeatedly incorrectly asserted, the money with which to buy and install the machinery for the expansion and the mechanization, which came from the profits earned by the corporation and its workers, whether retained earnings or the future anticipated profits to pay off a loan or to pay off bonds.

1) The real winners aren't passive.

2) Those passive investors aren't doing nothing, they're giving up the use of their money in exchange for the hope of more in the future.

I want to restore the workers ability to negotiate with their employers collectively, to remove some of the current barriers to the unions that with your enthusiastic support have been erected by your fellow neoliberals. The most effective and least contentious way to handle wage negotiations is what is called industrial sector negotiations This is norm in Germany, used to protect both the employees and the employers. The union members' wages are keyed to one important trade in an industrial sector. We built classic capital machines used to manufacture products for sale, our key trade was a machinist. Everyone's wages in the industrial sector are a ratio of the machinist's wages. Tool & die makers earned 12% more than the machinists and janitors made 75% of what the machinists make, etc. all through the company, through the industrial sector, and finally through the entire economy. Then once a year the representatives of the employers and the unions sit down with the representatives of state governments and they negotiate how much the basic wage rates will go up or down depending on how well the industry sector has done, on average. Yes, that is correct, if say the automobile sector was depressed, wages could be lowered in the entire industry sector to give it a boost and to forestall unemployment. It hasn't happened very often, but it has happened.

This locks in a static relationship. New approaches will change the relative value of various work. You also have the problem that you don't control the entire market. Look at what has happened to America--jobs where outside competition is a factor have very little unionization because the union companies couldn't compete with the non-union ones.

The reason that it reduces contention between the management and the union is because it takes the negotiation for the wage rate out of the hands of a single company and its union. The union has the same goals as the management, to be successful and to make money. In a recession everybody's wages go down.

It would be a lot better than what we had. Here it's in the union's interest to slowly run the company into the ground.

It also removes competitive pressures from the wage rate, since everyone pays the same wages in the same industry.

Which means you have no incentive to do a better job.
 
1) Got some numbers to support that insane assumption?

2) It is an economic issue far more than a political issue.

3) Under your economics the companies don't automate in the first place, even if your numbers worked they wouldn't happen.

4) Assuming your system actually worked what would happen? Most people would be unemployed.

I haven't proposed a 'system'. I have proposed bringing the ratio of wages to profits back to its historical level.

Your response is both predictable and counterfactual.

To get back to the wage::profit ratio you want we also have to go back to the historical levels of automation. Oops, that's a major cut to our standard of living.

No we don't. We just need to pay currently low paid people more money for the work they (and the machines they tend) do.
 
It also removes competitive pressures from the wage rate, since everyone pays the same wages in the same industry.

Which means you have no incentive to do a better job.

People are NOT incentivised to do a better job by the hope of a pay rise. As you yourself have mentioned many times on these fora, people generally get a pay rise by moving to a new job, rather than by getting a raise. The new employer may be able to get a vague assessment of what they know; But has no way of determining how diligent or hard working they are. It's all bullshit and bluster.

Hard work gets you taken for granted. Hard work gets you blisters. Hard work gets you given more work to do. But hard work does NOT get you more pay. And smart people who haven't been brainwashed know this.
 
Really? you're basically saying here "giving 100% raise to everybody is no problem"
Well, technically it's no problem if you accept corresponding 100% inflation.

Once upon a time the ratio between the highest earners and the lowest was not as great as it is now, yet it did not create a problem with excessive rates of inflation.

Scandinavian nations are more equatable....including their happiness rating being higher than many other countries
$100k autoworkers are not the lowest earners here. I have no problem with giving a raise to walmart folk and taking money from CEOs.
I just find it disgusting that these $100k workers are somehow OK and not the problem. it's not just CEOs vs the rest, it's workers vs workers when people are doing essentially the same work and get paid vastly different wages.
And to clarify I am talking about the time around 2008 when US car makers were in troubles. I don't know how much auto unions pay themselves now. Maybe it's not $100k anymore.


Given the cost of living in 'developed' nations, housing, raising children, schooling, etc, an income of $100k or so is not big money.
 
To get back to the wage::profit ratio you want we also have to go back to the historical levels of automation. Oops, that's a major cut to our standard of living.

No we don't. We just need to pay currently low paid people more money for the work they (and the machines they tend) do.

Why? You are welcome to pay anyone whatever you want with your own funds.

What makes you so certain the value companies earn from their work is greater than the wage you think they should be paid?

I like the horse analogy:

"Look at how fast people travel from city to city with new transportation technology. Why isn't the value/price paid for horses keeping up with these amazing gains in transportation speeds? Their productivity has increased immensely."

By the way, the pay given to the machine inventors, the engineers who enhance them, and the managers who figure out their best use (those primarily responsible for the productivity increases) is quite significant and a contributor to wealth and income disparity.

UBI or wage subsidy is probably the way to go for low wage low productivity/value added workers (if kept within reason).
 
$100k autoworkers are not the lowest earners here. I have no problem with giving a raise to walmart folk and taking money from CEOs.
I just find it disgusting that these $100k workers are somehow OK and not the problem. it's not just CEOs vs the rest, it's workers vs workers when people are doing essentially the same work and get paid vastly different wages.
And to clarify I am talking about the time around 2008 when US car makers were in troubles. I don't know how much auto unions pay themselves now. Maybe it's not $100k anymore.


Given the cost of living in 'developed' nations, housing, raising children, schooling, etc, an income of $100k or so is not big money.
And since autoworkers are no longer paid that much they must be starving and living on the streets
 
$100k autoworkers are not the lowest earners here. I have no problem with giving a raise to walmart folk and taking money from CEOs.
I just find it disgusting that these $100k workers are somehow OK and not the problem. it's not just CEOs vs the rest, it's workers vs workers when people are doing essentially the same work and get paid vastly different wages.
And to clarify I am talking about the time around 2008 when US car makers were in troubles. I don't know how much auto unions pay themselves now. Maybe it's not $100k anymore.


Given the cost of living in 'developed' nations, housing, raising children, schooling, etc, an income of $100k or so is not big money.
And since autoworkers are no longer paid that much they must be starving and living on the streets

Or they are eking out a living on minimum wage. Or they have readjusted their skill sets and are getting much the same pay in construction or engineering. Or they.....
 
And since autoworkers are no longer paid that much they must be starving and living on the streets

Or they are eking out a living on minimum wage. Or they have readjusted their skill sets and are getting much the same pay in construction or engineering. Or they.....
No, they get paid much less now than before the shit hit the fan in 2008. And as someone who actually starved and was homeless while having a full time job with university degree (not the american B.S. degree, an actual science degree) I don't give a fuck about these fat and stupid union asses who were getting $100K salaries and still complained.
 
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