New Study Confirms That American Workers Are Getting Ripped Off

[ruby sparks]

My point was and still is, you can't have assembly line workers paid more than any professor, even english literature ones. Ok you can have more than english literature but that's a line I draw.
To be fair I don't consider english literature professors real professors. I really talk about STEM.

Well, English Lit professors ARE real professors, it's just that they arguably don't have enough bargaining power when it comes to persuading many employers that they can be useful enough, by which I mean produce enough of what usually matters to the employers. Money.

As for STEM, I believe it's a variegated situation, but I do hear that many qualified persons are not earning big money. My guess is the reasons for that are complicated. Here at least, the data says you do better on average with a STEM qualification though.

 

[barbos]

Are you saying the only way to get $100k in 2008 was to have serious overtime?

I'll come right out and say your $100K autoworker is a myth, a legend, outright bull shit. The shakeup in auto worker pay was way before 2008.

Nope, you are bullshittoing me
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automotive_industry_crisis_of_2008–10

The automotive industry crisis of 2008–2010 was a part of a global financial downturn. The crisis affected European and Asian automobile manufacturers, but it was primarily felt in the American automobile manufacturing industry

 

[barbos]

My point was and still is, you can't have assembly line workers paid more than any professor, even english literature ones. Ok you can have more than english literature but that's a line I draw.
To be fair I don't consider english literature professors real professors. I really talk about STEM.

Well, English Lit professors ARE real professors,

Well, for the sake of common goal, I guess we can include them But there is no chance in hell professors of theology are getting included. But then I don't know their situation at all, it could be better or worse I have no idea, nor do I care, they are not going to get included.

Bottom line, american workers are not getting ripped off.

 

[ruby sparks]

But there is no chance in hell professors of theology are getting included. But then I don't know their situation at all, it could be better or worse I have no idea, nor do I care, they are not going to get included.

Fair enough. Though I do feel that theology is very very complicated. Useless, but very complicated if done properly and thoroughly. Theology is arguably the painstaking study of nothing at all. Sort of.

Bottom line, american workers are not getting ripped off.

I bet some are.

 

[ruby sparks]

I have a badly-formed and poorly-thought-through theory that a LOT (possibly the majority) of American 'workers' (that's people who get paid to work for a living) would do better if America moved slightly to the left. Note that I didn't use the word Communism.

On the tenuous assumption that my theory has legs, I do find myself wondering why more Americans don't want that.

 

[JohnG]

This is the kind of thinking that gave us Trump.

The thinking wasn't wrong, the reaction was wrong.

Please show me a typical American worker living in a cardboard box! Let's not go off the tracks here. A near poverty wage American is still in the top 1% of salary earners in the world. We are incredibly fortunate to live in the US. Having said that, the middle class has been in relative decline. There's no doubt about that. There are ways to turn the tide: economic development, increasing training, lowering barriers to training and education, increasing trade and services, opening markets up, incentives to encourage entrepreunership, and etc. The republicans solution to turn the tide is to appeal to fear: blame immigrants, blame trade, blame NATO, blame title 9, blame environmentalists, blame scientists, blame Muslims, and etc. The republicans are going to throw us into a recession that is going to hurt the middle class.

I agree with all you say, but the rust belt towns and the like were nailed extraordinarily hard, and the benefits of globalization were reaped by owners, CEOs...

The rewads should have been spread out, but the USA is terrible at that. Europe does a much better job of supporting it's people during economic change.

As you say the the middle class is shrinking, but I doubt they're joining the upper class. Maybe some are, but most probably are not.

 

[Horatio Parker]

They usually come up with those figures by calculating all possible overtime. Like seven days a week working 11.5 hour shifts. When I worked in the shop during college, there were side departments doing that, but they would a get a 40 hour week every month or so. Assembly lines are too expensive to run like that, anyway that's what I was told. Workers who preferred free time to ot would pull seniority to get on the assembly lines.

Yeah, the general line workers weren't worked like that. Usually, the line workers were laid off for two to three weeks and collected unemployment during model year changeover. The skilled trades, electricians, pipefitters, welders, etc. put in huge amounts of hours to prepare for the new model production.

When I worked at Chevy in the pit, I was assigned to side departments during changeover. Count a pile of lifters or something, then stand around until something else was assigned. Changeover for an engine plant was only a couple of days. We had two lines, v8s and straight 6s.

 

[ruby sparks]

Please show me a typical American worker living in a cardboard box! Let's not go off the tracks here. A near poverty wage American is still in the top 1% of salary earners in the world. We are incredibly fortunate to live in the US. Having said that, the middle class has been in relative decline. There's no doubt about that. There are ways to turn the tide: economic development, increasing training, lowering barriers to training and education, increasing trade and services, opening markets up, incentives to encourage entrepreunership, and etc. The republicans solution to turn the tide is to appeal to fear: blame immigrants, blame trade, blame NATO, blame title 9, blame environmentalists, blame scientists, blame Muslims, and etc. The republicans are going to throw us into a recession that is going to hurt the middle class.

I agree with all you say, but the rust belt towns and the like were nailed extraordinarily hard, and the benefits of globalization were reaped by owners, CEOs...

The rewads should have been spread out, but the USA is terrible at that. Europe does a much better job of supporting it's people during economic change.

As you say the the middle class is shrinking, but I doubt they're joining the upper class. Maybe some are, but most probably are not.

I agree with both of you. And I might throw something else in the mix. Who are those 'middle class' who have lost out really worse off than? Perhaps they are worse off than they themselves used to be, or alternatively than they would have been had things not declined. Perhaps they are worse off than their equally-situated parents' generation were? I really do not know the answer but there are so many ways to measure 'better off'. There generally being more or better treatments for this or that medical condition is one biggie, imo. Not having to fight in a war is another. I'm generalising because I have to, of course.

Also, I think people (myself not excluded) expect so much more nowadays. The proportion of what we work to pay for that we don't really need must surely have risen dramatically in the last 30 years or so.

I'm aware that there are many who do actually suffer, even in the 1st world. It would be difficult, and harsh, to tell someone who loses their job and a few months later their house that they are still well off compared to most in the 3rd world, even if it's true.

 

[ZiprHead]

Nope, you are bullshittoing me
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automotive_industry_crisis_of_2008–10

The automotive industry crisis of 2008–2010 was a part of a global financial downturn. The crisis affected European and Asian automobile manufacturers, but it was primarily felt in the American automobile manufacturing industry

I'll accept your link. But I see nothing there that says auto workers are or were making $100k.

 

[ZiprHead]

They usually come up with those figures by calculating all possible overtime. Like seven days a week working 11.5 hour shifts. When I worked in the shop during college, there were side departments doing that, but they would a get a 40 hour week every month or so. Assembly lines are too expensive to run like that, anyway that's what I was told. Workers who preferred free time to ot would pull seniority to get on the assembly lines.

Yeah, the general line workers weren't worked like that. Usually, the line workers were laid off for two to three weeks and collected unemployment during model year changeover. The skilled trades, electricians, pipefitters, welders, etc. put in huge amounts of hours to prepare for the new model production.

When I worked at Chevy in the pit, I was assigned to side departments during changeover. Count a pile of lifters or something, then stand around until something else was assigned. Changeover for an engine plant was only a couple of days. We had two lines, v8s and straight 6s.

I'm going by the memory of my father. He 's been gone since 2000 and suffered with his disease for many years before that. So I'm pretty much going by the memory of what auto work was like forty years ago. My father welcomed the lay offs prior to becoming an electrician, same with most of the others laid off. It was time off without dipping into the vacation time, which was still there when they were called back.

 

[Horatio Parker]

When I worked at Chevy in the pit, I was assigned to side departments during changeover. Count a pile of lifters or something, then stand around until something else was assigned. Changeover for an engine plant was only a couple of days. We had two lines, v8s and straight 6s.

I'm going by the memory of my father. He 's been gone since 2000 and suffered with his disease for many years before that. So I'm pretty much going by the memory of what auto work was like forty years ago. My father welcomed the lay offs prior to becoming an electrician, same with most of the others laid off. It was time off without dipping into the vacation time, which was still there when they were called back.

The days when "Human Resources" was "Personnel" and they processed the unemployment for you...

 

[bilby]

To get back to the wage:rofit ratio you want we also have to go back to the historical levels of automation. Oops, that's a major cut to our standard of living.

No we don't. We just need to pay currently low paid people more money for the work they (and the machines they tend) do.

Why?

Because I believe an economy should be the servant of the people, not their master.

You are welcome to pay anyone whatever you want with your own funds.

No, I am not. There is a vast amount of labour and employment law that says I am not.

What makes you so certain the value companies earn from their work is greater than the wage you think they should be paid?

The increasing gap between profits and wages.

I like the horse analogy:

"Look at how fast people travel from city to city with new transportation technology. Why isn't the value/price paid for horses keeping up with these amazing gains in transportation speeds? Their productivity has increased immensely."

By the way, the pay given to the machine inventors, the engineers who enhance them, and the managers who figure out their best use (those primarily responsible for the productivity increases) is quite significant and a contributor to wealth and income disparity.

But the workers (unlike the horses) are still employed; And the people who invent and/or build the machines are NOT the same people who are getting rich.

So the analogy fails.

UBI or wage subsidy is probably the way to go for low wage low productivity/value added workers (if kept within reason).

I agree. And it will become yet another of the many examples of people not being free to pay anyone any amount they like from their own money.

It's not really 'my' money at all. Money is society's way of keeping score - it's not a commodity in its own right. Who gets the highest score is dependent not only on how they play the game, but also on the rules, and when the rules lead to inequitable scores, they can be, and should be, adjusted.

 

[ZiprHead]

The U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics reports that the average salary of a University Professor was $75,430 annually as of May 2016. The lowest-paid 10 percent of all University Professors earn less than $38,290, while the highest-paid 10 percent are paid more than $168,270 per year.

Source.

From my source about union auto worker pay, the top end is $38/hour. That's $79,000 annually for the top end skilled trades union autoworker. Just a tad more than the average college professor and no where near the top end of college professors. I think your comparison can be safely declared a fail.

How is that a fail?
Some professors are paid close to $1mil, so I guess my comparison is even more fail?
My point is and still are, you can't have assembly line workers paid more than any professor, even english literature ones. Ok you can have more than english literature but that's a line I draw.

Why not?


Still waiting for an answer to this question.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

To get back to the wage:rofit ratio you want we also have to go back to the historical levels of automation. Oops, that's a major cut to our standard of living.

No we don't. We just need to pay currently low paid people more money for the work they (and the machines they tend) do.

Which means you can't pay for the machinery.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

It also removes competitive pressures from the wage rate, since everyone pays the same wages in the same industry.

Which means you have no incentive to do a better job.

People are NOT incentivised to do a better job by the hope of a pay rise. As you yourself have mentioned many times on these fora, people generally get a pay rise by moving to a new job, rather than by getting a raise. The new employer may be able to get a vague assessment of what they know; But has no way of determining how diligent or hard working they are. It's all bullshit and bluster.

Hard work gets you taken for granted. Hard work gets you blisters. Hard work gets you given more work to do. But hard work does NOT get you more pay. And smart people who haven't been brainwashed know this.

Whether they get it from their current employer or by changing employers doesn't change the basic issue. The system described brings no reward for good work. Why would you expect people to try hard when it doesn't change the result?

 

[ZiprHead]

To get back to the wage:rofit ratio you want we also have to go back to the historical levels of automation. Oops, that's a major cut to our standard of living.

No we don't. We just need to pay currently low paid people more money for the work they (and the machines they tend) do.

Which means you can't pay for the machinery.

Why not? Maybe forego that half-million dollar bonus for the CEO and $100k bonuses for the upper management would more than cover the new machinery.

 

[barbos]

Nope, you are bullshittoing me
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automotive_industry_crisis_of_2008–10

The automotive industry crisis of 2008–2010 was a part of a global financial downturn. The crisis affected European and Asian automobile manufacturers, but it was primarily felt in the American automobile manufacturing industry

I'll accept your link. But I see nothing there that says auto workers are or were making $100k.

The link was to counter your bullshit about timing of the things in question.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Which means you can't pay for the machinery.

Why not? Maybe forego that half-million dollar bonus for the CEO and $100k bonuses for the upper management would more than cover the new machinery.

[Citation needed]

This standard eat-the-rich approach never works. There aren't nearly enough of them.

 

[ZiprHead]

I'll accept your link. But I see nothing there that says auto workers are or were making $100k.

The link was to counter your bullshit about timing of the things in question.

Which I accepted. Where is your link that union auto workers made $100k?

 

[barbos]

How is that a fail?
Some professors are paid close to $1mil, so I guess my comparison is even more fail?
My point is and still are, you can't have assembly line workers paid more than any professor, even english literature ones. Ok you can have more than english literature but that's a line I draw.

Why not?


Still waiting for an answer to this question.

OK, because your fat ass assembly line workers don't really want underpaid and unemployed eggheads looking for a way to make money, because often they end up with shit t like stock market crashes and other scams..