NFL team owner Robert Kraft was swept up in a bust of a sex-trafficking day spa

[RavenSky]

After the story broke, the most oft-heard question was, “How could those guys be so stupid?”

It’s beyond rhetorical, of course. As human history illustrates, there’s no limit to the stupid, tawdry, pathetic things that men will do for a few minutes of sex. The stupid gene is stubborn and fed by the myth that prostitution is always a harmless transaction between consenting adults.

In the massage-parlor investigation, a far more important question is, “How could those guys be so blind?”

Imagine entering a small, dimly lit storefront spa where the women speak little or no English. There’s clue No. 1 that you’re not in a Nevada-style brothel with professional sex workers.

Clue No. 2 would be the presence of suitcases, refrigerators, bedding, hot plates and other items that would lead anybody with half a brain to conclude that the women were living on the premises, and probably not by choice.

https://www.miamiherald.com/opinion/op-ed/article227001519.html

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

After the story broke, the most oft-heard question was, “How could those guys be so stupid?”

It’s beyond rhetorical, of course. As human history illustrates, there’s no limit to the stupid, tawdry, pathetic things that men will do for a few minutes of sex. The stupid gene is stubborn and fed by the myth that prostitution is always a harmless transaction between consenting adults.

In the massage-parlor investigation, a far more important question is, “How could those guys be so blind?”

Imagine entering a small, dimly lit storefront spa where the women speak little or no English. There’s clue No. 1 that you’re not in a Nevada-style brothel with professional sex workers.

Clue No. 2 would be the presence of suitcases, refrigerators, bedding, hot plates and other items that would lead anybody with half a brain to conclude that the women were living on the premises, and probably not by choice.

https://www.miamiherald.com/opinion/op-ed/article227001519.html

Please, let me mansplain this away. If the women really didn’t want to do this sort of stuff, they shouldn’t be committing acts that entrap poor white billionaires or other people. Are guys supposed to investigate every sex worker, perform interviews, background checks?! Seriously, you might as well just make such work illegal.

And let’s be honest, if you’ve eaten at a Mexican or Chinese place, you likely supported human trafficking... hypocrite!

Also, just because a woman is living where she works isn’t an automatic sign she is trafficked in the sex trade. She might just really really love sex.

 

[repoman]

Scary stuff, so are these famous, powerful guys purposefully using these sex trafficking places rather than ones that have women that come in to work?

An at will hooker would have some ability to snitch on these guys either to get more money from threatening to expose them or or report them to the cops if they were abusive and dangerous assholes. This could lead to an "8 mm" or "Hostel" situation, since the infrastructure is already there.

 

[J842P]

Scary stuff, so are these famous, powerful guys purposefully using these sex trafficking places rather than ones that have women that come in to work?

An at will hooker would have some ability to snitch on these guys either to get more money from threatening to expose them or or report them to the cops if they were abusive and dangerous assholes. This could lead to an "8 mm" or "Hostel" situation, since the infrastructure is already there.

It's actually mind-boggling. This guy could easily afford high-class escorts. He's a friggen' billionaire. Why go to a strip-mall tug-shop?

I've been living in San Francisco for the past 2 years, and I've been totally blown away by how open a lot of prostitution is. I mean, try walking around Union Square as soon as the sun goes down as a male and I swear every dozen people you pass is some girl asking you if you are looking for a good time. And a lot of these Asian massage parlors aren't really even trying to hide what they are doing, they have the red-lights and everything!

Of course, there are people shitting in the street and smoking meth / shooting heroin out in the open. So, not really the biggest shocker.

 

[TSwizzle]

I've been living in San Francisco for the past 2 years, and I've been totally blown away by how open a lot of prostitution is. I mean, try walking around Union Square as soon as the sun goes down as a male and I swear every dozen people you pass is some girl asking you if you are looking for a good time. And a lot of these Asian massage parlors aren't really even trying to hide what they are doing, they have the red-lights and everything!

Of course, there are people shitting in the street and smoking meth / shooting heroin out in the open. So, not really the biggest shocker.

I am looking forward to the day when I can leave California.

 

[J842P]

I've been living in San Francisco for the past 2 years, and I've been totally blown away by how open a lot of prostitution is. I mean, try walking around Union Square as soon as the sun goes down as a male and I swear every dozen people you pass is some girl asking you if you are looking for a good time. And a lot of these Asian massage parlors aren't really even trying to hide what they are doing, they have the red-lights and everything!

Of course, there are people shitting in the street and smoking meth / shooting heroin out in the open. So, not really the biggest shocker.

I am looking forward to the day when I can leave California.

Well, I'm not. I like this city. The freaks are the best part. It's the damn techies that are running everything (except me of course, I'm cool).

 

[ronburgundy]

Scary stuff, so are these famous, powerful guys purposefully using these sex trafficking places rather than ones that have women that come in to work?

An at will hooker would have some ability to snitch on these guys either to get more money from threatening to expose them or or report them to the cops if they were abusive and dangerous assholes. This could lead to an "8 mm" or "Hostel" situation, since the infrastructure is already there.

Yeah, there is the possibility that he chose a dive like that precisely b/c he knows he can get away with abusing the women. OTOH, it's possible that he just thought he'd be less recognized in such a place and thus less subject to extortion, although organized extortion by the violent criminals that run such places seems more likely than from a "high-class" escort. On a third hand, maybe this is something he is so ashamed of that he didn't put any planning or thought into it and just acted an impulse.

Are guys supposed to investigate every sex worker, perform interviews, background checks?!

Given that you presented this within a strawman attack of the irrelevant concept of "mansplaining", we can only infer that you actually think all customers should have to investigate every company they deal with to ensure the legal and humane treatment of all their workers.
Seems like a rather extreme position. You must spend most of your free time deciding where to shop.

I would love to see Kraft fall, but as of now the only thing we know he is guilty of is exchanging money for sex, which most people without religious or sexual hangups think should be legal, and it's illegality is what enables human trafficking. It is possible he had knowledge of the human trafficking aspect and thus is guilty of more than that, but to imply he is automatically accountable for how the workers are treated sets a standard that I am certain you or anyone else cannot live up to.

If he is just a naive John, then his moral culpability for the sex trafficking is actually lower than that of people who oppose legal prostitution and thus help ensure the industry is run by violent criminals.

Also, if you think that is "man"splaining, then you are a misogynist who think that women are incapable of rational explanations.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Scary stuff, so are these famous, powerful guys purposefully using these sex trafficking places rather than ones that have women that come in to work?

An at will hooker would have some ability to snitch on these guys either to get more money from threatening to expose them or or report them to the cops if they were abusive and dangerous assholes. This could lead to an "8 mm" or "Hostel" situation, since the infrastructure is already there.

It's actually mind-boggling. This guy could easily afford high-class escorts. He's a friggen' billionaire. Why go to a strip-mall tug-shop?

Actually, I can see a reason for it. The high class escort will verify who she is dealing with and thus know who he is. That provides a blackmail potential, or the police getting their hands on her records if they do bust her. Pay cash at a massage parlor and there are no records.

 

[Derec]

After the story broke, the most oft-heard question was, “How could those guys be so stupid?”

I do not think he was stupid. Just a victim of the completely pointless war on sex work fueled by puritanism from both left (you, Toni, Frikki etc.) and right.

It’s beyond rhetorical, of course. As human history illustrates, there’s no limit to the stupid, tawdry, pathetic things that men will do for a few minutes of sex. The stupid gene is stubborn and fed by the myth that prostitution is always a harmless transaction between consenting adults.

The prohibitionists are fed by the myth that prostitution is never a harmless transaction between consenting adults.

In the massage-parlor investigation, a far more important question is, “How could those guys be so blind?”

There is no reason to assume Kraft and other customers knew of any trafficking. And actually, there probably wasn't any real trafficking to begin with.

Imagine entering a small, dimly lit storefront spa where the women speak little or no English.

So they are mostly recent immigrants. So what? Are nail salons or restaurants where staff are mostly recent immigrants also automatically guilty of "human trafficking"? Should all their customers also be criminalized?

There’s clue No. 1 that you’re not in a Nevada-style brothel with professional sex workers.

Massage parlors offering hand jobs in a state where any sex work is illegal do not look like out-in-the-open brothels where sex work is legal?
Do tell!

Clue No. 2 would be the presence of suitcases, refrigerators, bedding, hot plates and other items that would lead anybody with half a brain to conclude that the women were living on the premises, and probably not by choice.

Many company break rooms have fridges, microwaves and the like. And even if it is obvious employees sleep on site, that does not mean they are being held against their will. Actually, in the case of this particular massage parlor, the claims of "human trafficking" have already been shown to likely be spurious.
Patriots Owner Robert Kraft's Arrest Is Being Billed as a Human Trafficking Bust, but It Looks More Like Ordinary Prostitution

Authorities are calling this a "human trafficking operation," with some media outlets invoking "modern-day slavery." But so far all signs suggest this is just an ordinary anti-prostitution effort.

Kraft was charged with two counts of soliciting for prostitution, a misdemeanor. Orchids of Asia's owner, Hua Zhang, was charged with deriving support from the proceeds of prostitution, keeping and frequenting a house of prostitution, and procuring for prostitution. All of these are charges that can apply to prostitution-business bosses even when everyone involved consents.

Martin County Sheriff William Snyder said at a press conference that some of the workers at these spas lived in them and weren't allowed to leave during the day. This is something we frequently hear from police chiefs and county sheriffs at the start of big "sex trafficking busts" that turn out to yield nothing but ordinary prostitution charges. (See, for instance, King County, Washington, cops on Korean sex workers there.)

And ask yourselves this: if these women were really victims of trafficking, why have police not rescued them right away, instead of holding off so they could arrest as many customers as possible? Also, the tactic of filming people getting sexual services is highly unsavory.

 

[untermensche]

Just a victim of the completely pointless war on sex work fueled by puritanism from both left (you, Toni, Frikki etc.) and right.

Illegal prostitution is no different from illegal marijuana.

This MF lived by the sword. He should die by it.

 

[Derec]

Please, let me mansplain this away.

What you really are doing is prohibitionsplaining.

If the women really didn’t want to do this sort of stuff, they shouldn’t be committing acts that entrap poor white billionaires or other people. Are guys supposed to investigate every sex worker, perform interviews, background checks?! Seriously, you might as well just make such work illegal.

Well, you prohibitionists have made all such work illegal. And all you have accomplished is that you are busting 77 year old widowers for getting a hand job.
Keeping Florida safe from the scourge of non-marital hand jobs! Well done you!

And let’s be honest, if you’ve eaten at a Mexican or Chinese place, you likely supported human trafficking... hypocrite!

At least by the criteria this article uses, like having a lot of recent immigrants as employees. And they might even have sleeping quarters in the back? Oh the horrors!

Also, just because a woman is living where she works isn’t an automatic sign she is trafficked in the sex trade. She might just really really love sex.

Fallacy of the excluded middle. Much more likely is that she is a regular sex worker, but that living on premises allows her to save money.
Used to be the case that many self-storage facilities and motels had a little apartment behind the office where the manager lived. I guess that's evidence of human trafficking in the self storage industry. Especially if he's from China or Korea or something.

 

[Derec]

Illegal prostitution is no different from illegal marijuana.

I agree. But I reckon you will get a lot of flak by Toni et al for the comparison.

This MF lived by the sword. He should die by it.

Any evidence that Kraft has been a crusader against sex work or marijuana?
I remember when Elliott Spitzer was busted for visiting high-priced escorts. In his case it was indeed karma, as he was very busy prosecuting sex work while AG of NY.

But I do not see how that applies here.
Let a Chinese woman deflate his balls every once in a while for a $100. Who is harmed thereby?

 

[untermensche]

Much more likely is that she is a regular sex worker, but that living on premises allows her to save money...

Regular sex worker?

Prostitution is illegal where this happened.

When professions are driven underground there is no "regular".

It is all seedy and putrid.

 

[Derec]

Scary stuff, so are these famous, powerful guys purposefully using these sex trafficking places rather than ones that have women that come in to work?

The LEOs definitely overcooked the "human trafficking" claims. For one, Kraft himself was serviced by the manager. A human trafficker engages in sex work along with traffickees? Very much doubt it. Second, no human trafficking charges were filed against anybody so far, just garden variety anti-prostitution charges.

An at will hooker would have some ability to snitch on these guys either to get more money from threatening to expose them or or report them to the cops if they were abusive and dangerous assholes. This could lead to an "8 mm" or "Hostel" situation, since the infrastructure is already there.

Huh??

 

[untermensche]

Any evidence that Kraft has been a crusader against sex work or marijuana?

He is part of an organization that punishes people for marijuana use.

As an owner of course he wants his players to get away with everything.

 

[Derec]

Regular sex worker?
Prostitution is illegal where this happened.

That doesn't mean that she is automatically a "human trafficking victim", i.e. forced into it.
That's what I meant by "regular sex worker".

When professions are driven underground there is no "regular".
It is all seedy and putrid.

Again, just because it is illegal does not mean that it is automatically human trafficking.

But I think things would be much better for everybody (except busybodies from right and left) if sex work was legal.

 

[Derec]

It's actually mind-boggling. This guy could easily afford high-class escorts. He's a friggen' billionaire. Why go to a strip-mall tug-shop?

High-class escort outfits are not immune from police persecution either.
And perhaps it was convenience, or relative anonymity.

I've been living in San Francisco for the past 2 years, and I've been totally blown away by how open a lot of prostitution is. I mean, try walking around Union Square as soon as the sun goes down as a male and I swear every dozen people you pass is some girl asking you if you are looking for a good time. And a lot of these Asian massage parlors aren't really even trying to hide what they are doing, they have the red-lights and everything!

It should just be legal. It meets a legitimate human (mostly male) demand, so it will always exist, no matter how much moral guardians try to drive it underground.

Of course, there are people shitting in the street and smoking meth / shooting heroin out in the open. So, not really the biggest shocker.

That, on the other hand, SF could focus on getting rid off.

 

[Derec]

He is part of an organization that punishes people for marijuana use.

That does not mean that he was personally a crusader for that position.

 

[untermensche]

He is part of an organization that punishes people for marijuana use.

That does not mean that he was personally a crusader for that position.

It means he accepts the fact that some people in his organization will be punished for marijuana use.

And no human freely wants to pleasure this guy.

 

[Tom Sawyer]

To be clear, this was not a case of a man having sex with a prostitute. This is a case of a guy raping a sex slave. When you go to one of these low end "spas", you know damn well that there's a very, very good chance that the women in there are being trafficked and you are committing an act of rape when you pay their kidnappers to have sex with them.

Kraft had every opportunity to take his business to a high end escort where there's essentially a 100% chance that you're paying a consenting adult in the industry willingly, but that would leave a much clearer trail back to him and he chose to focus on preserving his anonymity by going to the trafficking spot instead of taking advantage of all the other options available. That was a distinct choice on his part and he deserves to be held accountable for it.

This incident is not a discussion of the pros and cons of prostitution. It's a discussion about whether or not it's OK to rape people.