Non-believers - Ever prayed really hard for God to reveal himself?

[excreationist]

....Followers turn into Slaves/Servants down on their knees, shaking with fear, begging for mercy - just where these religions want them to be - blind, obeidient followers - no wonder we have had so many mass murders and killings in the name of religion.

Philippians 2:10 - "that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth,"

Deuteronomy 6:5 - "Love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength."

See also:
http://biblehub.com/matthew/22-37.htm
http://biblehub.com/mark/12-30.htm
http://biblehub.com/luke/10-27.htm

FYI - No Hell in Hinduism. Period. God Rama is my Father, not my Master. God Rama is no Torturer. Period.

That means if people are trying to avoid the possibility of hell they don't need to worry about the possibility of Hinduism being true.

 

[Keith&Co.]

You can only serve one God. (well at least according to God) .

That just means he's greedy. Why would i trust his testimony on the matter?

And until monotheism was invented, plenty of people served plenty of gods. My Paladin is devoted to only one, but he makes regular sacrifices to every god in the pantheon. The good ones, anyway. Well, lawful neutral, lawful good and neutral good. The Chaotic Good one, well, she's insane. He pretends she's in a different mythos.

The Christian God involves the highest amount of reward and the highest amount of punishment. .

Exactly how much time have you spent studying the afterlife model of the Greeks?

Perhaps Poseidon involves some consequences .

Perhaps?
You don't KNOW? Then how can you dismiss the consequences if you're not able to assess them functionally?

M involves some consequences but they are no way near as severe as he Christian God. .

Eh, you literally don't know what you're talking about.
But you sure sound certain. I just don't think i can trust your assessment of anything non-Christain, or to compare anything to Christainity. Your assessments are hollow.

- - - Updated - - -

That means if people are trying to avoid the possibility of hell they don't need to worry about the possibility of Hinduism being true.

Really?
If Hinduism is true, and we reject Hinduism, what are the consequences?

 

[excreationist]

How do you define 'heart' and 'soul?'
The heart is a muscle for blood circulation.
The soul is an artifact of superstition.
How do you measure ALL of your heart and soul?

It is similar to how some people say they put in 100% (or 110%). BTW in the Bible it seems that the bowels were the seat of emotions:
http://www.adath-shalom.ca/body_metaphors_bib_hebrew.htm
I think the mind also was linked to a body part - but I can't find info about it now.

 

[Keith&Co.]

It is similar to how some people say they put in 100% (or 110%).

I didn't ask for an analogy. Can you define the words?

BTW in the Bible

I have to say that i really don't care too greatly about what is or isn't in The Books. I don't know the authors or trust the interpreters so it never really advances too many discussions.

 

[excreationist]

....Exactly how much time have you spent studying the afterlife model of the Greeks?

I think they have a kingdom of Hades.... but I think just bad people go there.... not people that don't believe in the correct God. And Hades might not be as severe as hell/the lake of fire. I've heard of stories where people escape Hades though no-one (except Jesus?) escapes hell I think.

Perhaps?
You don't KNOW? Then how can you dismiss the consequences if you're not able to assess them functionally?

I don't "KNOW" just about anything but I've got to rely on probabilistic logic.

I'll finish my reply later.

 

[Keith&Co.]

I think they have a kingdom of Hades.... but I think just bad people go there.... not people that don't believe in the correct God. And Hades might not be as severe as hell/the lake of fire. I've heard of stories where people escape Hades though no-one (except Jesus?) escapes hell I think.

::Sigh::
No, ExC, EVERYONE goes to Hades. It's not a terribly fun place, but it's not a terribly bad place, either. Just cold, dark and boring.
But, if you choose to be reincarnated, and live a good life three times, then you get to go to an eternal party in a corner of Hades.

Nothing Above, it's frightening to see how sure you are about things that you really don't know anything about.
were you ever saved by God when he overrode the free will of a tow truck driver?

I don't "KNOW" just about anything but I've got to rely on probabilistic logic.

Probabilistic logic?

Um... You know that 'logic' is only a tool for evaluating ideas, right? Not reality? And with bad assumptions used as the base of your logic, you can have very elegant logic built up on stupidity that gives you stupid results, right? And you just showed that you are quite ignorant about at least one other faith system, so your assumptions that involve a comparison between Christainity and the Greek pantheon cannot possibly be reliable, no matter how good you are at logical evaluations.

 

[excreationist]

::Sigh::
No, ExC, EVERYONE goes to Hades....

Then what difference does it make if I believe in Poseidon or other Greek gods? On the other hand if hell is true, it makes a difference whether Jesus is my Lord or not.

...Nothing Above, it's frightening to see how sure you are about things that you really don't know anything about...

What are you talking about exactly? My knowledge of Hades?

Probabilistic logic?

Um... You know that 'logic' is only a tool for evaluating ideas, right? Not reality? And with bad assumptions used as the base of your logic, you can have very elegant logic built up on stupidity that gives you stupid results, right? And you just showed that you are quite ignorant about at least one other faith system, so your assumptions that involve a comparison between Christainity and the Greek pantheon cannot possibly be reliable, no matter how good you are at logical evaluations.

Like I said the possibility of Hades doesn't really much in comparison to hell. Like you said "EVERYONE" goes to Hades anyway (if it is true) My assumptions aren't set in stone - I'm open to them being tested.

 

[excreationist]

(Me: ) Perhaps Poseidon involves some consequences and perhaps the FSM involves some consequences but they are no way near as severe as he Christian God.
Eh, you literally don't know what you're talking about.
But you sure sound certain. I just don't think i can trust your assessment of anything non-Christain, or to compare anything to Christainity. Your assessments are hollow.

WHERE - anywhere is there any evidence that a lack of belief in Poseidon or the Flying Spaghetti Monster results in a consequence that is any way comparable to eternal extreme punishment? Massive numbers of Christians believe in hell but is there anyone that believes that there is a similar punishment for disbelief in Poseidon or the FSM?

If Hinduism is true, and we reject Hinduism, what are the consequences?

Maybe I'd still get reincarnated into something pleasant. On the other hand apparently they have no hell so if I'm trying to avoid the possibility of hell I don't need to worry about the possibility that Hinduism is true.

 

[excreationist]

It is conceivable that demons are trying to undermine people's faith. That's what my sisters believe and their pastor preaches it. C. S. Lewis's "The Screwtape Letters" is based on that idea. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Screwtape_Letters

Also there is the story of Job where Satan asked God if he could make Job suffer to see how strong Job's faith was.

Also this was written by King David: (apparently)

http://biblehub.com/niv/psalms/10.htm
"Why, Lord, do you stand far off? Why do you hide yourself in times of trouble?"

http://biblehub.com/niv/psalms/22.htm
"My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?
Why are you so far from saving me,
so far from my cries of anguish?
My God, I cry out by day, but you do not answer,
by night, but I find no rest."

So if you actually look at the Bible, this kind of behavior is fairly normal for God.....

 

[Keith&Co.]

Then what difference does it make if I believe in Poseidon or other Greek gods?

The difference, ExC, is that you're supremely unqualified to say things like "BTW there aren't many consequences about whether you are correct in your belief about whether Poseidon exists or not." Your ignorance about the other faiths offered by human history is clear and your bias blatant.

On the other hand if hell is true, it makes a difference whether Jesus is my Lord or not.

But Pascal's Wager sucks. It's only use is as a rationalization for believers after they choose a religious tradition to follow.
I'd far rather see some reason to believe that a god exists, because piss-poor math isn't compelling.

What are you talking about exactly? My knowledge of Hades?

I'm talking about your confidence in saying things like how belief in God has the greatest importance or the greatest risk. Or how your Hell is worse than anyone else's view of the afterlife. clearly you're not competent to make these comparisons.

Like I said the possibility of Hades doesn't really much in comparison to hell.

But when you said that, you knew bupkes about Hades. So why should i trust ANY assessment you make about how your faith makes more sense, or has less risk?

Like you said "EVERYONE" goes to Hades anyway (if it is true) My assumptions aren't set in stone - I'm open to them being tested.

No, you're clinging to them quite desperately.

 

[Keith&Co.]

WHERE - anywhere is there any evidence that a lack of belief in Poseidon or the Flying Spaghetti Monster results in a consequence that is any way comparable to eternal extreme punishment?

I asked before what you've done to investigate the possible consequences of the religions you dismiss as not being terribly important. The clear fact is: damn close to nothing at all.

So you can't really ask ME to do your homework in the same thread you're trying to tell me how the only consequences that matter are those of your faith.
The fact that you're not aware of the fully range of consequences has little or nothing to do with an objective assessment of the consequences.

Massive numbers of Christians believe in hell but is there anyone that believes that there is a similar punishment for disbelief in Poseidon or the FSM?

Oooh! Argument from popularity. Two more and i get BINGO!

Maybe I'd still get reincarnated into something pleasant.

How do you figure that? Based on any understanding of how the cycles work?

On the other hand apparently they have no hell so if I'm trying to avoid the possibility of hell I don't need to worry about the possibility that Hinduism is true.

I'm kind of amazed that your sales pitch for your religion is based on the idea that Jesus is the god i most need to fear.

 

[excreationist]

The difference, ExC, is that you're supremely unqualified to say things like "BTW there aren't many consequences about whether you are correct in your belief about whether Poseidon exists or not."

Ok since I'm apparently "supremely unqualified" to talk about Poseidon, what about you? Are you qualified? If so, why is my statement that "there aren't many consequences" incorrect? Please demonstrate why there are in fact *many consequences* about beliefs in Poseidon. BTW do you accept that there currently aren't many believers in Poseidon? If the existence of Poseidon matters then why aren't many people worried about the consequences?

....Or how your Hell is worse than anyone else's view of the afterlife.

See this video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tzynfCuJRBY

What is worse that being "pain itself" for an eternity? Please let me know. And if there is something worse, can you show me what other religions believe in it.

....So why should i trust ANY assessment you make about how your faith makes more sense, or has less risk?

I never said I believe in hell. I am agnostic about it. I think it is a possibility.

No, you're clinging to them quite desperately.

I maintain that my assumptions aren't set in stone. e.g. at the start of this post I mentioned that I used to believe in a young earth.

 

[excreationist]

I asked before what you've done to investigate the possible consequences of the religions you dismiss as not being terribly important. The clear fact is: damn close to nothing at all.

So you can't really ask ME to do your homework in the same thread you're trying to tell me how the only consequences that matter are those of your faith.

So you want me to research all of the religions (which would take years) but you can't just answer simple questions?


"Massive numbers of Christians believe in hell but is there anyone that believes that there is a similar punishment for disbelief in Poseidon or the FSM?"

Oooh! Argument from popularity. Two more and i get BINGO!

So the chance of eternal extreme hell being real if Poseidon or the FSM is real is the same if the Christian God is real?

 

[Keith&Co.]

It is conceivable that demons are trying to undermine people's faith.

It's conceivable that God slept with twenty male prostitutes the night before he destroyed Sodom. I have read that fanfiction.
I'm not going to bet eternity on that story, though.

That's what my sisters believe and their pastor preaches it. C. S. Lewis's "The Screwtape Letters" is based on that idea.

Yeah, sure. It's an idea. Lots of ideas lend themselves well to fiction. Not God and the male prostitutes, maybe. But that might have been the writer.
If you replace God, Michael and Jesus in that story with Gandalf, Aragorn and Legolas, and change references to Sodom to Gondor, it's pretty much still a story of the night before the orcs lay siege. No other changes need to be made.

I did enjoy the way God was laying about with great big tips, secure in the knowledge that he'd get all the gold back inside of two days, scavenged from the destruction.
God (in this fiction) can create an infinite amount of gold, but he wants to keep his hands on every coin. What a dick, you know?

Also there is the story of Job where Satan asked God if he could make Job suffer to see how strong Job's faith was.

Yeah, god comes across as a real dick in that one, too. Job loses his ten children, but he gets new wives and new children in the end, so it's a happy ending? Really?

Also this was written by King David: (apparently)

Say rather 'traditionally.'

So if you actually look at the Bible, this kind of behavior is fairly normal for God.....

Yeah. Big dick in the sky.
Why should i follow him, even if he's real?

Oh, yeah. To stay out of Hell by being a butt snorkel.

 

[Keith&Co.]

Ok since I'm apparently "supremely unqualified" to talk about Poseidon, what about you? Are you qualified?

I'm not trying to say that the atheism is the best chance to avoid Hell, or Hades, or Ma'at's feather, or Niffelheim. I haven't made any claims about the relative merits of any belief or disbelief.
You have.
And your claims don't stand up to analysis.

If so, why is my statement that "there aren't many consequences" incorrect?

I didn't say it was incorrect. I said that you didn't know what you were talking about.

Please demonstrate why there are in fact *many consequences* about beliefs in Poseidon.

That's not a claim i made.
Do you understand the term 'burden of proof?'
What's the burden of proof laid upon someone who is not making any claims?

BTW do you accept that there currently aren't many believers in Poseidon? If the existence of Poseidon matters then why aren't many people worried about the consequences?

Maybe because 'many people' are as ignorant as you are about Greek or Roman deities? Maybe because not many people have actually tried to use Pascal's Wager on any faith but their own as a rationalization?
But since argument by popularity is a fool's game, it's not really important, is it?
I'm quite okay with the idea that a majority of humanity is wrong about their afterlife beliefs. We are kind of a stupid species, prone to fads and weak on analysis.

What is worse that being "pain itself" for an eternity?

Being in pain for all eternity for no good reason? That would be painful AND humiliating, wouldn't it?
Imagine if spending 15 minutes studying Amateratsu or Ma'at could have saved you from that eternity of pain, how'd you feel, then?
Or 10 minutes with someone who'd read the Koran.

Please let me know. And if there is something worse, can you show me what other religions believe in it.

Again, not my job.
But if you're going to claim that only Christ can save me from eternal pain, then you need to show that no one else has that threat.

I never said I believe in hell. I am agnostic about it. I think it is a possibility.

But it's the only possibility you seem willing to credit.

 

[Keith&Co.]

So you want me to research all of the religions

I don't want you to do anything, ExC. You're beginning to make things up.

(which would take years)

Well, yes. There are people who spend years studying theology in a comparative way. People who actually do know how many religions threaten eternal suffering, or oblivion, or the afterlife along the Mormon model, and so on.
You're not one of them, you're not in a position to make the claims you're making.

but you can't just answer simple questions?

Why should i? IF you want to be able to claim that your god is the hoariest, meanest, least forgiving bastard, then you need to do the heavy lifting to make your claims valid.

"Massive numbers of Christians believe in hell but is there anyone that believes that there is a similar punishment for disbelief in Poseidon or the FSM?"

So the chance of eternal extreme hell being real if Poseidon or the FSM is real is the same if the Christian God is real?

No, trying to justify a belief because lots of people share it is a worthless argument. All that proves is that christainity's marketing was effective. I mean, burning competitors at the stake does wonders for brand loyalty...

 

[excreationist]

"Massive numbers of Christians believe in hell but is there anyone that believes that there is a similar punishment for disbelief in Poseidon or the FSM?"

Oooh! Argument from popularity. Two more and i get BINGO!

Hi I just want to focus on this for now even though you're talking about lots of different things....

I'm not aware of any believers in Poseidon or the Flying Spaghetti monster who also believe that non-believers suffer eternally.

But let's say that there are ten people who believe that non-believers in Poseidon or the FSM go to hell forever.

I think there are many hundreds of millions of Christians that believe that non-believers go to hell forever.

Now which believe seems more likely to be true? Something that has 10 believers or 100,000,000+ believers? Let's assume that the ten believers aren't geniuses.

So which would you put your money on?

Though the number of believers would be less than ten - I think it is closer to zero. If you disagree with this, please prove that someone honestly believes that non-believers in Poseidon or the FSM suffer eternally....

And there might even be more than a billion Christians that believe non-believers got to hell.... so who would you put your money on - something that zero people believe or something a billion people believe?

I know something having more believers doesn't completely prove it's true. But if you're talking about a court case it is considered to be evidence.

I remember you complaining that I expected you to provide answers even though I hadn't researched all of the different religions that exist. You do know that it takes several years even to be quite knowledgeable about one religion - I mean it takes years to train pastors.

So this is the only topic I think I'll debate with you for now. I hope you can give me an adequate reply where you are addressing my questions rather than just not taking me seriously.

Now which believe seems more likely to be true? Something that has 0 believers or 100,000,000+ believers?

Remember I'm talking about what is more likely not what is definitely true. And if you think there are more than 0 believers you need to provide hard evidence, not just speculation.

 

[Keith&Co.]

Now which believe seems more likely to be true? Something that has 0 believers or 100,000,000+ believers?

Pick ANY scientific theory.
Germ theory, let's say. Before the discovery of germs, everyone either believed diseases were punishments from gods, caused by demon possession, imbalances of the humours, fae poison or any number of things. The number of people who believed germs caused disease was 0.
But if 100,000,000 people were diseased, then somewhere close to 100,000,000 people were suffering from germs.

This applies to any scientific or other factual discovery. No one believed any of them before they were thought up, investigated, established, cartoons made, pictures drawn, reports published and given names. Not necessarily in that order...

The number of people who BELIEVE something to be true has nothing at all to do with how true it is or isn't.
The numbers are not useful in determining whether something is certainly true, or likely true, or unlikely, or just plain fictional.

There is no debate.

 

[excreationist]

Yes there are examples where almost everyone believes in something and no-one believes in the truth. But I think there are more examples where at least one person knows the truth rather than believing a lie.

So in this example the focus is whether or not non-believers in Poseidon or the FSM suffer eternally. Are you saying that this belief, which would have zero believers is the truth?

By truth I mean that assuming Poseidon or the FSM existed, they would make non-believers suffer eternally. Do you consider it an undiscovered fact?

 

[Keith&Co.]

Yes there are examples where almost everyone believes in something and no-one believes in the truth. But I think there are more examples where at least one person knows the truth rather than believing a lie.

So what? 1 person, 100,000,000 person? The difference does not change what is and isn't true.