Nordstream sabotage

[Loren Pechtel]

I've never heard so much apologizing in all my life for a US president!!! Biden said he was going to blow up the pipe and it certainly looks like he simply blew up the pipe like he said he was going to do.....case closed. Perhaps other countries had motives but how many other leaders said they were going to stop this pipe? You could go to court with such said video evidence and probably get a convinction on Biden... even in criminal court!

Biden flaps his mouth almost as bad as Trump admitting a lot of other wrong doing during his presidency as well. But unlike Trump he has ample apologists like yourself and others.... so his nose always remains clean.

The US would be at the absolute bottom of my list of players that would have done it.

 

[Hermit]

That said, I do think the sabotage was more likely to have been committed by a NATO member than Russia. The former had more to gain from it than the latter.

I disagree. It's not in the interests of the west to have eastern Europe and some parts of western Europe freezing this coming winter.

The people who decided on the sabotage are not going to freeze. They can afford to pay for their heat even if the price of gas quadruples.

To do so would make them question their resolve in aiding Ukraine.

How so?

Look at it this way: By making it impossible for Russia to resume supplying gas in the short to medium term it removes a bargaining chip they could use to bribe some NATO members, particularly Germany, into relaxing or abolishing economic sanctions and reducing or stopping arms supplies to Ukraine. Germany is the the country most susceptible to it, but in 2021 two thirds of Nord Stream's gas was bought by other countries. Here is a list of them.

That would only aid Russia.

The underlying assumption is that the saboteurs will own up to what they have done. This is not going to happen.

By cutting the supply of gas by an act of sabotage gives Russia plausable deniability and allows speculation that it was done by Biden or another NATO nation.

If Russia cut the supply of gas by an act of sabotage it would be a classic case of cutting off one's nose to spite one's face. It has already cut supply by the non-destructive means of shutting down the pumps and closing the valves? Sabotaging it would only have two consequences. 1) Massive damage to an €18 billion investment of which it owns 51%. 2) Throwing away a bargaining chip.

An afterthought: Guess which country produces more natural gas than Russia and is the second-largest exporter of it.

 

[Harry Bosch]

My prime suspect is Russia too, but I don't actually have any conviction.

Fact: Nord Stream 2 never entered service because Germany was outraged by Russia and refused to use it.
Fact: Germany, recognizing the reckless and dangerous nature of their energy provider, has taken great measures this year to wean themselves off of ALL Russian gas as soon as possible.
Fact: Just like Nord Stream 2, Nord Stream (1) was ALREADY dead infrastructure which would only provide money for Russia for ONE more winter.

Russia doesn't care that Nord Stream is dead because they already recognized the fact that Germany had already killed it. Germany proved to them that it wasn't even useful as a bargaining chip by refusing to flinch when the Russians recently shut it down due to "technical difficulties" or what not.

One last winter's worth of money for Russia isn't that much, and I think it will hurt Europe more than it hurts Russia, especially if vulnerable Germans start freezing to death.

Agreed. Again, I'd like to wait until more evidence comes forth, but it appears to me that Putler did it. This hurts Biden much worse than Putler.

That said, I do think the sabotage was more likely to have been committed by a NATO member than Russia. The former had more to gain from it than the latter.

I disagree. It's not in the interests of the west to have eastern Europe and some parts of western Europe freezing this coming winter.

The people who decided on the sabotage are not going to freeze. They can afford to pay for their heat even if the price of gas quadruples.

To do so would make them question their resolve in aiding Ukraine.

How so?

Look at it this way: By making it impossible for Russia to resume supplying gas in the short to medium term it removes a bargaining chip they could use to bribe some NATO members, particularly Germany, into relaxing or abolishing economic sanctions and reducing or stopping arms supplies to Ukraine. Germany is the the country most susceptible to it, but in 2021 two thirds of Nord Stream's gas was bought by other countries. Here is a list of them.

That would only aid Russia.

The underlying assumption is that the saboteurs will own up to what they have done. This is not going to happen.

By cutting the supply of gas by an act of sabotage gives Russia plausable deniability and allows speculation that it was done by Biden or another NATO nation.

If Russia cut the supply of gas by an act of sabotage it would be a classic case of cutting off one's nose to spite one's face. It has already cut supply by the non-destructive means of shutting down the pumps and closing the valves? Sabotaging it would only have two consequences. 1) Massive damage to an €18 billion investment of which it owns 51%. 2) Throwing away a bargaining chip.

An afterthought: Guess which country produces more natural gas than Russia and is the second-largest exporter of it.

Hermit: Russia has been "cutting off its nose to spite its face" every single day for 7 months! They are by far the most self-destructive country in the world. Not sure why we should be surprised. Of course, America is the largest generator of natural gas (oil also, much to the chagrin of conservatives). But here's the deal, our gas is much more expensive to Europe. Again, who has the most to lose. Higher gas prices are leading to double digit inflation and is killing the world economies. If it continues, the republicans will sweep in November. Biden goes down. Biden would be incredibly stupid to do this. Let's wait and see. If Nato did it or anyone in the west, the truth will come out as we're terrible with keeping secrets.

 

[Hermit]

My prime suspect is Russia too, but I don't actually have any conviction.

Fact: Nord Stream 2 never entered service because Germany was outraged by Russia and refused to use it.
Fact: Germany, recognizing the reckless and dangerous nature of their energy provider, has taken great measures this year to wean themselves off of ALL Russian gas as soon as possible.
Fact: Just like Nord Stream 2, Nord Stream (1) was ALREADY dead infrastructure which would only provide money for Russia for ONE more winter.

Russia doesn't care that Nord Stream is dead because they already recognized the fact that Germany had already killed it. Germany proved to them that it wasn't even useful as a bargaining chip by refusing to flinch when the Russians recently shut it down due to "technical difficulties" or what not.

One last winter's worth of money for Russia isn't that much, and I think it will hurt Europe more than it hurts Russia, especially if vulnerable Germans start freezing to death.

Agreed. Again, I'd like to wait until more evidence comes forth, but it appears to me that Putler did it. This hurts Biden much worse than Putler.

That said, I do think the sabotage was more likely to have been committed by a NATO member than Russia. The former had more to gain from it than the latter.

I disagree. It's not in the interests of the west to have eastern Europe and some parts of western Europe freezing this coming winter.

The people who decided on the sabotage are not going to freeze. They can afford to pay for their heat even if the price of gas quadruples.

To do so would make them question their resolve in aiding Ukraine.

How so?

Look at it this way: By making it impossible for Russia to resume supplying gas in the short to medium term it removes a bargaining chip they could use to bribe some NATO members, particularly Germany, into relaxing or abolishing economic sanctions and reducing or stopping arms supplies to Ukraine. Germany is the the country most susceptible to it, but in 2021 two thirds of Nord Stream's gas was bought by other countries. Here is a list of them.

That would only aid Russia.

The underlying assumption is that the saboteurs will own up to what they have done. This is not going to happen.

By cutting the supply of gas by an act of sabotage gives Russia plausable deniability and allows speculation that it was done by Biden or another NATO nation.

If Russia cut the supply of gas by an act of sabotage it would be a classic case of cutting off one's nose to spite one's face. It has already cut supply by the non-destructive means of shutting down the pumps and closing the valves? Sabotaging it would only have two consequences. 1) Massive damage to an €18 billion investment of which it owns 51%. 2) Throwing away a bargaining chip.

An afterthought: Guess which country produces more natural gas than Russia and is the second-largest exporter of it.

Hermit: Russia has been "cutting off its nose to spite its face" every single day for 7 months!

Putin has made several disastrous misjudgements. Chief among them were his beliefs in the Russian military's competence, Ukraine's inability to resist it and NATO member's willingness to stand idly by as he invades a neighbouring country. Those mistakes were not a matter of cutting off one's nose to spite one's face. Putin is not so stupid to sabotage an €18 billion investment of which Russia owns 51% when cutting supply by the non-destructive means of shutting down the pumps and closing the valves already had the same effect. Nor is he stupid enough to throw away a bargaining chip by doing so.

Higher gas prices are leading to double digit inflation and is killing the world economies.

99% of the people will suffer. The other 1%, the people who have bought the politicians, do not. Regardless of periodic economic downturns, the rich get richer. The gulf between the haves and have-nots widens and deepens.

If it continues, the republicans will sweep in November.

Democrats would hate that. Republicans would be overjoyed. Big money does not care.

Biden goes down. Biden would be incredibly stupid to do this. Let's wait and see. If Nato did it or anyone in the west, the truth will come out as we're terrible with keeping secrets.

Past US governments have perpetrated unconscionable acts, thinking the truth will not be discovered. What makes you think this one is different?

I should remind you (plural) that I do not know if the US is responsible for the sabotage. In the absence of concrete evidence I am just speculating, like everybody else, but for reasons I have repeatedly listed the US is the most likely culprit, alone, or in concert with others.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Putin has made several disastrous misjudgements. Chief among them were his beliefs in the Russian military's competence, Ukraine's inability to resist it and NATO member's willingness to stand idly by as he invades a neighbouring country. Those mistakes were not a matter of cutting off one's nose to spite one's face. Putin is not so stupid to sabotage an €18 billion investment of which Russia owns 51% when cutting supply by the non-destructive means of shutting down the pumps and closing the valves already had the same effect. Nor is he stupid enough to throw away a bargaining chip by doing so.

This. He's been repeatedly guilty of seriously misreading the situation but nothing he has done has been on it's face detrimental to Russia. (Yes, he's done things like expose the fact that the Russian army had rotted from within, but he didn't know that.) Blowing the pipelines is obviously detrimental (removes a bargaining chip for no gain), I do not think he would have done it. Even evil people usually act in their self-interest.

 

[Harry Bosch]

No matter how dumb this strategy seems. It does work. And has been used in the past.

Dumb strategies and conspiracy theories work on dumb people and those of us who are largely insecure. How's that for conspiracy thinking at its finest?

Funny! Considering how idiotic the Russian armed forces have performed since March, perhaps it was the Russians but they attacked the wrong pipeline?!

 

[TSwizzle]

As an outside bet I'd put money on France.

 

[TomC]

In the news Norwegian oil and gas profits have skyrocketed.

Maybe it was those pesky Norwegians.

A country needs to have the means as well as incentive.

Something else occurred to me in the last couple of days.

People talk about this as though it's obviously a government or government agency. There's no real reason to do that. Plenty of private enterprises have the means. And more motivation than nearly any government.

The list of private concerns, from environmental groups to Exxon-Mobile, is nearly endless. And a reasonably savvy investor could recoup the $50M investment in the first day after success.

If Elon Musk can put novices into space, you can figure that Blackwater has the methods to trash that pipe line. There's almost no risk, everyone is assuming it's a government. Not an investment group.
Tom

 

[Hermit]

everyone is assuming it's a government. Not an investment group.

I have mentioned the latter in three posts, but still think the sabotage was committed by a government body. Governments have been bought for doing stuff on behalf of investors' interests, and they have all the means to do this shit already. No need to pay for something twice.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

In the news Norwegian oil and gas profits have skyrocketed.

Maybe it was those pesky Norwegians.

A country needs to have the means as well as incentive.

Something else occurred to me in the last couple of days.

People talk about this as though it's obviously a government or government agency. There's no real reason to do that. Plenty of private enterprises have the means. And more motivation than nearly any government.

The list of private concerns, from environmental groups to Exxon-Mobile, is nearly endless. And a reasonably savvy investor could recoup the $50M investment in the first day after success.

If Elon Musk can put novices into space, you can figure that Blackwater has the methods to trash that pipe line. There's almost no risk, everyone is assuming it's a government. Not an investment group.
Tom

Except that's trusting that it never leaks. If it's private and they're caught they are in big trouble.

 

[Jarhyn]

In the news Norwegian oil and gas profits have skyrocketed.

Maybe it was those pesky Norwegians.

A country needs to have the means as well as incentive.

Something else occurred to me in the last couple of days.

People talk about this as though it's obviously a government or government agency. There's no real reason to do that. Plenty of private enterprises have the means. And more motivation than nearly any government.

The list of private concerns, from environmental groups to Exxon-Mobile, is nearly endless. And a reasonably savvy investor could recoup the $50M investment in the first day after success.

If Elon Musk can put novices into space, you can figure that Blackwater has the methods to trash that pipe line. There's almost no risk, everyone is assuming it's a government. Not an investment group.
Tom

Except that's trusting that it never leaks. If it's private and they're caught they are in big trouble.

If it's private military contracts, then fucking up a pipeline is probably par for the course with respect to (war)crimes.

 

[RVonse]

I've never heard so much apologizing in all my life for a US president!!! Biden said he was going to blow up the pipe and it certainly looks like he simply blew up the pipe like he said he was going to do.....case closed. Perhaps other countries had motives but how many other leaders said they were going to stop this pipe? You could go to court with such said video evidence and probably get a convinction on Biden... even in criminal court!

Biden flaps his mouth almost as bad as Trump admitting a lot of other wrong doing during his presidency as well. But unlike Trump he has ample apologists like yourself and others.... so his nose always remains clean.

The US would be at the absolute bottom of my list of players that would have done it.

When all else fails they take you to war:

Tucker Carlson: Biden is responsible for this destruction in Europe | Fox News Video

Fox News host Tucker Carlson voices his concerns over the use of nuclear weapons in the Russia-Ukraine conflict on 'Tucker Carlson Tonight.'

www.foxnews.com

Since you are not going to watch anything from a Fox video, I will sumarize for you. US neocons wants regime change in Russia. But their hubris fails logic when considering their so called tyrant (Putin) will probably end most life on this planet (including their life as well). These same neocons have failed many times before (ie Vietnam, Iraq) but were never held accountable for their consequences. Hence they have not learning anything.

But the neocons love war even if it is nuclear. And it is good for the democrats in power as well. The logic of it all constitutes a very powerful motive IMO.

 

[Harry Bosch]

I've never heard so much apologizing in all my life for a US president!!! Biden said he was going to blow up the pipe and it certainly looks like he simply blew up the pipe like he said he was going to do.....case closed. Perhaps other countries had motives but how many other leaders said they were going to stop this pipe? You could go to court with such said video evidence and probably get a convinction on Biden... even in criminal court!

Biden flaps his mouth almost as bad as Trump admitting a lot of other wrong doing during his presidency as well. But unlike Trump he has ample apologists like yourself and others.... so his nose always remains clean.

The US would be at the absolute bottom of my list of players that would have done it.

When all else fails they take you to war:

Tucker Carlson: Biden is responsible for this destruction in Europe | Fox News Video

Fox News host Tucker Carlson voices his concerns over the use of nuclear weapons in the Russia-Ukraine conflict on 'Tucker Carlson Tonight.'

www.foxnews.com

Since you are not going to watch anything from a Fox video, I will sumarize for you. US neocons wants regime change in Russia. But their hubris fails logic when considering their so called tyrant (Putin) will probably end most life on this planet (including their life as well). These same neocons have failed many times before (ie Iraq) but were never held accountable for their consequences. Hence they have not learning anything.

But the neocons love war. And it is good for the democrats in power as well.

That is super tortured logic! Do you honestly believe that "neo-cons" ordered Putin to invade Ukraine? Seriously? I don't want to strawman you. Do you consider me to be a neo-con simply because I want the Ukranian people to survive a brutal war that was launched again them?

 

[DrZoidberg]

In the news Norwegian oil and gas profits have skyrocketed.

Maybe it was those pesky Norwegians.

A country needs to have the means as well as incentive.

Something else occurred to me in the last couple of days.

People talk about this as though it's obviously a government or government agency. There's no real reason to do that. Plenty of private enterprises have the means. And more motivation than nearly any government.

The list of private concerns, from environmental groups to Exxon-Mobile, is nearly endless. And a reasonably savvy investor could recoup the $50M investment in the first day after success.

If Elon Musk can put novices into space, you can figure that Blackwater has the methods to trash that pipe line. There's almost no risk, everyone is assuming it's a government. Not an investment group.
Tom

Except that's trusting that it never leaks. If it's private and they're caught they are in big trouble.

If it's private military contracts, then fucking up a pipeline is probably par for the course with respect to (war)crimes.

That's not how it works. All military actions need to be under a national flag. Or it's terrorism. Reputable military contractors would never sell their services if it's guaranteed to cost them all future ability to sell their services.

There have been examples of mercenaries who tried staging coups in Africa. But that's a legal grey area. Since they were working for nations to be created.

There's also examples of private companies hiring security forces who then went off piste. But those are still nominally operating under the national flag of the country they are in.

Whatever company who hires mercenaries, those troops fall under the flag of the country where the company is registered in. And actions against a target registered in another country is an act of war. A nation is responsible for what its citizens and legal entities do.

 

[RVonse]

I've never heard so much apologizing in all my life for a US president!!! Biden said he was going to blow up the pipe and it certainly looks like he simply blew up the pipe like he said he was going to do.....case closed. Perhaps other countries had motives but how many other leaders said they were going to stop this pipe? You could go to court with such said video evidence and probably get a convinction on Biden... even in criminal court!

Biden flaps his mouth almost as bad as Trump admitting a lot of other wrong doing during his presidency as well. But unlike Trump he has ample apologists like yourself and others.... so his nose always remains clean.

The US would be at the absolute bottom of my list of players that would have done it.

When all else fails they take you to war:

Tucker Carlson: Biden is responsible for this destruction in Europe | Fox News Video

Fox News host Tucker Carlson voices his concerns over the use of nuclear weapons in the Russia-Ukraine conflict on 'Tucker Carlson Tonight.'

www.foxnews.com

Since you are not going to watch anything from a Fox video, I will sumarize for you. US neocons wants regime change in Russia. But their hubris fails logic when considering their so called tyrant (Putin) will probably end most life on this planet (including their life as well). These same neocons have failed many times before (ie Iraq) but were never held accountable for their consequences. Hence they have not learning anything.

But the neocons love war. And it is good for the democrats in power as well.

That is super tortured logic! Do you honestly believe that "neo-cons" ordered Putin to invade Ukraine? Seriously? I don't want to strawman you. Do you consider me to be a neo-con simply because I want the Ukranian people to survive a brutal war that was launched again them?

They did not directly order him to do so. But they did take all the steps (years in the making) they knew would get Putin to do what he said he would do.

 

[Jarhyn]

All military actions need to be under a national flag. Or it's terrorism

Your mistake is in assuming military contractors never get hired by private interests, or that the governments ask questions. Disavowment is always an option, too.

Military contractors MUST keep tight lips and tight ships. It's a matter of survival.

 

[Harry Bosch]

I've never heard so much apologizing in all my life for a US president!!! Biden said he was going to blow up the pipe and it certainly looks like he simply blew up the pipe like he said he was going to do.....case closed. Perhaps other countries had motives but how many other leaders said they were going to stop this pipe? You could go to court with such said video evidence and probably get a convinction on Biden... even in criminal court!

Biden flaps his mouth almost as bad as Trump admitting a lot of other wrong doing during his presidency as well. But unlike Trump he has ample apologists like yourself and others.... so his nose always remains clean.

The US would be at the absolute bottom of my list of players that would have done it.

When all else fails they take you to war:

Tucker Carlson: Biden is responsible for this destruction in Europe | Fox News Video

Fox News host Tucker Carlson voices his concerns over the use of nuclear weapons in the Russia-Ukraine conflict on 'Tucker Carlson Tonight.'

www.foxnews.com

Since you are not going to watch anything from a Fox video, I will sumarize for you. US neocons wants regime change in Russia. But their hubris fails logic when considering their so called tyrant (Putin) will probably end most life on this planet (including their life as well). These same neocons have failed many times before (ie Iraq) but were never held accountable for their consequences. Hence they have not learning anything.

But the neocons love war. And it is good for the democrats in power as well.

That is super tortured logic! Do you honestly believe that "neo-cons" ordered Putin to invade Ukraine? Seriously? I don't want to strawman you. Do you consider me to be a neo-con simply because I want the Ukranian people to survive a brutal war that was launched again them?

They did not directly order him to do so. But they did take all the steps (years in the making) they knew would get Putin to do what he said he would do.

So, the neo-cons devised this mean strategy into baiting Russia into invading Ukraine. And they did this knowing that Ukraine and the western world would rally to defeat Russian imperialism, against incredible odds; and that this would lead to Putins downfall. This is your position? Again, don't want to strawman you. But I have to say, that if you think about it rationally, this is one of the most absurd conspiracy beliefs in history. This sounds like a tale downloaded from Hunter's laptop!

 

[ZiprHead]

The Carlson-Kremlin feedback loop

www.mediamatters.org

Carlson’s coverage of the crisis created by Russia’s February invasion of Ukraine generally aligns with the Kremlin’s preferred narratives, to the point where Russian state media outlets, following their government’s explicit instructions, regularly air clips from his program.
That is what happened following the apparent sabotage of the Nord Stream pipelines.
Just hours after Russian officials floated the narrative that the U.S. was responsible for damaging the pipelines, Carlson adopted it as his own.
Describing the ruptures as an “act of industrial terrorism,” Carlson quickly dispatched with the notion that Russia or its dictator, Vladimir Putin, might be involved. According to Carlson, Putin “would not do that” and would have to be “a suicidal moron to blow up your own energy pipeline.”
Instead, Carlson strongly suggested that the U.S. had sabotaged the pipelines. “If they did this, this will be one of the craziest, most destructive things any American administration has ever done,” he said. “But it would also be totally consistent with what they do. What do they do? They destroy.”
Carlson’s comically weak case revolved around two main pieces of evidence – Sikorski’s tweet, and a February statement from President Joe Biden that if Russia were to invade Ukraine, “there will be no longer a Nord Stream 2. We will bring an end to it.” That seems to very obviously reference what happened after Russia invaded – Germany froze the pipeline project, which has yet to become operational. But in Carlson’s typically dishonest translation, Biden “said ‘there won't be a Nord Stream 2. We'll put an end to it. Will take it out. Will blow it up.’”
On that scanty evidence, Carlson suggested that the U.S. had blown up an ally’s energy infrastructure. While on-screen text stated “Today’s escalation will have huge consequences,” Carlson asserted that “we've entered a new phase, one in which the United States is directly at war with the largest nuclear power in the world.” He added: “If we actually blew up the Nord Stream pipelines, why wouldn't Russia sever undersea internet cables? What would happen if they did that?"

More in the article.

 

[TSwizzle]

So, the neo-cons devised this mean strategy into baiting Russia into invading Ukraine. And they did this knowing that Ukraine and the western world would rally to defeat Russian imperialism, against incredible odds; and that this would lead to Putins downfall.

This is how realpolitik works.

 

[ZiprHead]

So, the neo-cons devised this mean strategy into baiting Russia into invading Ukraine. And they did this knowing that Ukraine and the western world would rally to defeat Russian imperialism, against incredible odds; and that this would lead to Putins downfall.

This is how realpolitik works.

Was that how it worked in 2014 when Russia stole Crimea?