Not as important as petty rockets in Israel, but apparently Malaysian Airliner downed by rocket fire

[Jayjay]

Looks like US now admits that russian satellite photos showing ukrainian Buks are real and in the range.

Source?

 

[Jayjay]

Of coruse there are some questions that do need an answer, like why isn't the US releasing satellite photos,

At the very least they could have shown these photos to their own senators in the relevant committee.
This guy thinks US has much better satellite photos than russians and the reason for not releasing is that it shows Ukrainians shot that plane.

I find it suspicious that US is not even pressing Russia about having evidence anymore.
Very suspicious.

If the US has satellite imaging that can show beer bottles on the ground and what kind of uniforms the people are wearing, as Parry's source claims, then that would be a rather sensitive information. But photos can be downgraded and details obscured. I think the real reason is that the location of Ukrainian BUK systems is sensitive information in general. USA cannot release it without Ukraine's permission, and I think Ukraine's army is like any other army in the world that doesn't release that kind of data just for fun. You are never going to see Russia releasing satellite images of their own deployments on Russian side of the border either.

What the US could do though, is to counter the Russian satellite images and point that the BUK launch they detected with the fancy infrared system was in different coordinates. But they are not doing that.

 

[tupac chopra]

But so far the evidence that we have available seems to point to Russia and/or the rebels as the ones who actually fired the missile.

What evidence points to this?

 

[bilby]

But so far the evidence that we have available seems to point to Russia and/or the rebels as the ones who actually fired the missile.

What evidence points to this?

All the stuff from the last 442 posts that you dismiss as implausible. The stuff that you do accept is even less plausible, but as it supports your preconceptions, you are happy to accept its existence.

I don't think you are even aware that you are doing this; I genuinely believe that you believe that there is no evidence against your position, because as soon as you see any, you find a reason to dismiss it, and instantly forget that it ever existed. That's certainly what it looks like from here.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

If the US has satellite imaging that can show beer bottles on the ground and what kind of uniforms the people are wearing, as Parry's source claims, then that would be a rather sensitive information. But photos can be downgraded and details obscured.

There have been a lot of incidents where degraded images turned out to contain information that was supposed to be removed. I wouldn't be one bit surprised if they could compare the image with a bunch of shots at various resolutions and degrading to figure out what was most like the original. The problem is we are dealing with pixels

What the US could do though, is to counter the Russian satellite images and point that the BUK launch they detected with the fancy infrared system was in different coordinates. But they are not doing that.

So you would have a set of coordinates. What would that prove?

And this is something that they would be even less likely to give--what is the accuracy of the system? They'll certainly want to keep that secret.

 

[barbos]

At the very least they could have shown these photos to their own senators in the relevant committee.
This guy thinks US has much better satellite photos than russians and the reason for not releasing is that it shows Ukrainians shot that plane.

I find it suspicious that US is not even pressing Russia about having evidence anymore.
Very suspicious.

If the US has satellite imaging that can show beer bottles on the ground and what kind of uniforms the people are wearing, as Parry's source claims, then that would be a rather sensitive information. But photos can be downgraded and details obscured. I think the real reason is that the location of Ukrainian BUK systems is sensitive information in general. USA cannot release it without Ukraine's permission, and I think Ukraine's army is like any other army in the world that doesn't release that kind of data just for fun. You are never going to see Russia releasing satellite images of their own deployments on Russian side of the border either.

What the US could do though, is to counter the Russian satellite images and point that the BUK launch they detected with the fancy infrared system was in different coordinates. But they are not doing that.

As I said, they can at least show these pictures to McCain
Pentagon said they have no evidence of Russia involvement with this incident.
But I think it is stronger than that, they have proof that Russia is not involved.
Releasing that to anyone could really damage current US media War aganist Russia.

 

[barbos]

http://www.ldnews.com/local/ci_26216059/rep-jim-gerlach-calls-u-s-military-aid
Meanwhile US House of degenerates admits that US lied about Missile Defense in Eastern Europe being against Iran. And that Crimeans don't deserve democracy,
it's only a democracy if it's anti-russian, got it, Mr. Gerlach.

 

[Harry Bosch]

If the US has satellite imaging that can show beer bottles on the ground and what kind of uniforms the people are wearing, as Parry's source claims, then that would be a rather sensitive information. But photos can be downgraded and details obscured. I think the real reason is that the location of Ukrainian BUK systems is sensitive information in general. USA cannot release it without Ukraine's permission, and I think Ukraine's army is like any other army in the world that doesn't release that kind of data just for fun. You are never going to see Russia releasing satellite images of their own deployments on Russian side of the border either.

What the US could do though, is to counter the Russian satellite images and point that the BUK launch they detected with the fancy infrared system was in different coordinates. But they are not doing that.

As I said, they can at least show these pictures to McCain
Pentagon said they have no evidence of Russia involvement with this incident.
But I think it is stronger than that, they have proof that Russia is not involved.
Releasing that to anyone could really damage current US media War aganist Russia.

<sigh> Again, I wonder where you get your news. BTW: I get about 40% of my news from American media, 40% from the BBC, and 20% from others. Is it your opinion that all the world's media is colluding with the US military???

Anyway, this thread stopped being revelant about a week ago. But I'm happy to say that the Ukrainian military finally pushed the Russian wanntabees back, and they have taken over the site (according to CNN). So 12 days after the crash, we can finally get a credible investigation going, and hopefully bury all the bodies.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

<sigh> Again, I wonder where you get your news. BTW: I get about 40% of my news from American media, 40% from the BBC, and 20% from others. Is it your opinion that all the world's media is colluding with the US military???

Anyway, this thread stopped being revelant about a week ago. But I'm happy to say that the Ukrainian military finally pushed the Russian wanntabees back, and they have taken over the site (according to CNN). So 12 days after the crash, we can finally get a credible investigation going, and hopefully bury all the bodies.

We see the same pattern over and over--the left thinks the world's media is giving the party line of the right, not the truth. The Tea Party thinks everything but Faux is lying on behalf of the left.

 

[barbos]

As I said, they can at least show these pictures to McCain
Pentagon said they have no evidence of Russia involvement with this incident.
But I think it is stronger than that, they have proof that Russia is not involved.
Releasing that to anyone could really damage current US media War aganist Russia.

<sigh> Again, I wonder where you get your news. BTW: I get about 40% of my news from American media, 40% from the BBC, and 20% from others. Is it your opinion that all the world's media is colluding with the US military???

So Great Britain and US is 80% of the whole world, got it.

Anyway, this thread stopped being revelant about a week ago. But I'm happy to say that the Ukrainian military finally pushed the Russian wanntabees back, and they have taken over the site (according to CNN). So 12 days after the crash, we can finally get a credible investigation going, and hopefully bury all the bodies.

Too late, cause black boxes are already safe in the hands of investigators.

 

[bilby]

<sigh> Again, I wonder where you get your news. BTW: I get about 40% of my news from American media, 40% from the BBC, and 20% from others. Is it your opinion that all the world's media is colluding with the US military???

So Great Britain and US is 80% of the whole world, got it.

Anyway, this thread stopped being revelant about a week ago. But I'm happy to say that the Ukrainian military finally pushed the Russian wanntabees back, and they have taken over the site (according to CNN). So 12 days after the crash, we can finally get a credible investigation going, and hopefully bury all the bodies.

Too late, cause black boxes are already safe in the hands of investigators.

The black boxes are fairly unimportant - they almost certainly won't tell anything that isn't already known. The aircraft was shot down; we already know that.

What is still in question is who shot it down. That question may well be answered by forensic examination of the wreckage; the chemical signature of the remains of the missile's propellant and of the warhead explosive, the parts of the missile, and the pattern of the shrapnel impacts on the airframe will all help to determine the type of missile used (and may even be able to identify the batch from which it came); and that information combined with the radar track of the aircraft, the location of the damage on the airframe, and the known engagement characteristics of the missile type, will provide hard evidence of the possible launch sites - and quite likely rule out certain groups as suspects.

The SA-11, for example, has a terminal approach sequence that is intended to place the missile above the target - this is to minimise the options for evasive manoeuvres when firing at fast military jets - so shrapnel impacts mostly on the upper parts of the plane would suggest that type of missile. An air-to-air missile is more likely to be heat-guided, and to impact below and to the rear of the aircraft.

Damage concentrated in the cockpit roof area would suggest an SA-11 fired from ahead of the aircraft track (ie from east of the crash site), while damage to the roof towards the aft end of the fuselage would be more consistent with an SA-11 fired from the west. Damage concentrated on the lower fuselage would indicate that an SA-11 was not the type of missile responsible, which might change the picture even further.

The wreckage will tell a detailed and accurate story, once it is subjected to a proper forensic examination (which could take years, even after the wreckage is able to be moved to a properly equipped facility). Even tampering with the crash site will not erase all of the evidence, unless it is done by highly skilled people - few of whom are in evidence on either the Russian or Ukrainian sides of the conflict.

The answers will be known; but probably not quickly enough to suit the prurient interests of the press corps and their viewers, nor to suit the propaganda aims of the parties to the conflict.

Air crash investigations take many, many months. The Black Boxes are one small part of the process - and when the basic cause is known, as it is in this case, they are unlikely to be a particularly important part.

 

[barbos]

bilby, are you saying it's not too late for ukrainians to destroy the evidence?
Well, that explains why they violated agreement to stop war for the time of investigation.

 

[bilby]

bilby, are you saying it's not too late for ukrainians to destroy the evidence?
Well that explains that they violated agreement to stop war for the time of investigation.

There is so much evidence that it is unlikely that anyone can destroy enough of it to prevent the truth from coming out.

Your prejudice in assuming that you know which side has an interest in doing so is disappointing, but not surprising. The weight of evidence to date makes the rebels the main suspects; but the Ukrainians can't be ruled out, and even Russian regular forces could be in the frame, although that seems unlikely.

The only reason either side needs to ignore any ceasefire agreement is that they are a bunch of belligerent assholes. Neither side has a monopoly on such people.

The truth will come out. It will likely be ignored by all who don't want to believe it when it does; and it will likely come out long after the propagandists on all sides have lost interest.

24 Hour Breaking News!! is not a suitable medium for the truth, which tends to take months, not hours, to establish.

Ultimately I would like to see the people who fired the missile, and their immediate commanders, stand trial for manslaughter, and go to jail. I am prepared to wait until there is enough evidence for a reliable conviction; and I do not see any reason why this particular incident should result in any wider geo-political response than the arrest and imprisonment of the guilty parties.

I am certain that no government was to blame for this; nobody at the top level sent an order to someone to shoot down a commercial airliner flying from Amsterdam to Kuala Lumpur - why would they? The plane was shot down by somebody who had no clue what the fuck he was doing. Of course, such a person should never have been in charge of a SAM battery; but you don't blame the car rental company for drink-driving fatalities. The fault lies on the shoulders of the people who directly caused the missile to be fired - the commander and crew of the launcher.

All this sad political posturing is simply an insult to the families of the dead. Putin didn't do it; nor did Poroshenko, Yanukovych, Gubarev, Bolotov, or Obama. It was a crime, not a political statement.

 

[barbos]

My prejudice?!
It was not me who started all this "rebels are destroying the evidence"

And It was not me who tried to paint some weird never heard before russian website as official russian stance.
It was not me who lied about Odessa incident.
And the truth may come out but most will not hear it, because you will only hear that media tells you.
And according to "free" western wedia, Odessa incident was armed russian nationals attacking ukrainian patriots with sniper fire.
Same way it is clear (according to media) that Russia provided Buks to rebels (even though it's not clear to pentagon)

 

[Jayjay]

<sigh> Again, I wonder where you get your news. BTW: I get about 40% of my news from American media, 40% from the BBC, and 20% from others. Is it your opinion that all the world's media is colluding with the US military???

So Great Britain and US is 80% of the whole world, got it.

Anyway, this thread stopped being revelant about a week ago. But I'm happy to say that the Ukrainian military finally pushed the Russian wanntabees back, and they have taken over the site (according to CNN). So 12 days after the crash, we can finally get a credible investigation going, and hopefully bury all the bodies.

Too late, cause black boxes are already safe in the hands of investigators.

The part that I am curious about is not the bodies or the black boxes, but the inspection of the debris. Then we might settle the question whether the rebels destroyed evidence (should be obvious to determine, if they used power tools to cut pieces off) or the type of the missile used.

 

[tupac chopra]

We could in all likelihood get a good idea of who is responsible if only America would release it's evidence. They continue to hide evidence which we have right to know about.
Even US intelligence veterans are asking for this to be done.
Obama Should Release Ukraine Evidence

MEMORANDUM FOR: The President

FROM: Veteran Intelligence Professionals for Sanity (VIPS)

SUBJECT: Intelligence on Shoot-Down of Malaysian Plane

Executive Summary

U.S.–Russian intensions are building in a precarious way over Ukraine, and we are far from certain that your advisers fully appreciate the danger of escalation. The New York Times and other media outlets are treating sensitive issues in dispute as flat-fact, taking their cue from U.S. government sources.

Twelve days after the shoot-down of Malaysian Airlines Flight 17, your administration still has issued no coordinated intelligence assessment summarizing what evidence exists to determine who was responsible – much less to convincingly support repeated claims that the plane was downed by a Russian-supplied missile in the hands of Ukrainian separatists.
Your administration has not provided any satellite imagery showing that the separatists had such weaponry, and there are several other “dogs that have not barked.” Washington’s credibility, and your own, will continue to erode, should you be unwilling – or unable – to present more tangible evidence behind administration claims. In what follows, we put this in the perspective of former intelligence professionals with a cumulative total of 260 years in various parts of U.S. intelligence:

 

[barbos]

So Great Britain and US is 80% of the whole world, got it.

Anyway, this thread stopped being revelant about a week ago. But I'm happy to say that the Ukrainian military finally pushed the Russian wanntabees back, and they have taken over the site (according to CNN). So 12 days after the crash, we can finally get a credible investigation going, and hopefully bury all the bodies.

Too late, cause black boxes are already safe in the hands of investigators.

The part that I am curious about is not the bodies or the black boxes, but the inspection of the debris. Then we might settle the question whether the rebels destroyed evidence (should be obvious to determine, if they used power tools to cut pieces off) or the type of the missile used.

That's too bad because US/Ukraine government are not interested in that

 

[bilby]

We could in all likelihood get a good idea of who is responsible if only America would release it's evidence. They continue to hide evidence which we have right to know about.

You don't have the right to shit. There might be some merit in an argument that US taxpayers have a right to US intelligence agency data; but if you want satellite photos and other data collected using expensive equipment, you need to pay for it.

As far as I know, ASIO have no satellites over Ukraine.

 

[barbos]

We could in all likelihood get a good idea of who is responsible if only America would release it's evidence. They continue to hide evidence which we have right to know about.

You don't have the right to shit. There might be some merit in an argument that US taxpayers have a right to US intelligence agency data; but if you want satellite photos and other data collected using expensive equipment, you need to pay for it.

As far as I know, ASIO have no satellites over Ukraine.

And US has no right to shit on Russia without evidence.

 

[Ford]

And US has no right to shit on Russia without evidence.

So we're still pretending that Russia isn't the least bit involved in anything happening in Ukraine?