Now are you willing to believe the PA pays terrorists?

[arkirk]

How in the world could Israel enforce peace short of genocide?

Peace is not enforced, it is achieved. Once you understand that, you will understand the silliness of your question.

Loren is trying stretch out both his and our learning curves for some reason and I hate to speculate what that might be. Loren is not a stupid man. He is using language we can easily see will not lead to anything diplomatic. Why? I don't know!

 

[Bronzeage]

Peace is not enforced, it is achieved. Once you understand that, you will understand the silliness of your question.

I understand that the left has a major delusion in this regard. That doesn't make it true. It only takes one side to make war. The only way the other side can avoid it is to capitulate--in this case, commit suicide.

That seems to be the endgame for the left--the death of Israel.

So this ends when either the Israelis push the last Palestinian into the Jordan River, of the Palestinians push the last Israeli into the Mediterranean Sea.

I don't see either scenario as a realistic solution. I find it difficult to believe anyone in the 21st century thinks political goals can be achieved through genocide. It does take two sides to make a war. We call a war with only one side shooting, a massacre.

Israel has made it's bed and will have to lie in it for the foreseeable future. They have a elected a series of governments who have laid a ground work which makes peace impossible to obtain, without the Jordan River solution. Why any sensible person can't see this is a mystery. It's what the Israelis want, and I suppose some of them think it's possible.


In the meantime, they will keep sending their children into battle, which might be called the endgame of the right, but it's not actually an end of anything.

 

[untermensche]

Peace is not enforced, it is achieved. Once you understand that, you will understand the silliness of your question.

I understand that the left has a major delusion in this regard. That doesn't make it true. It only takes one side to make war. The only way the other side can avoid it is to capitulate--in this case, commit suicide.

That seems to be the endgame for the left--the death of Israel.

Nobody believes for a second that Israel couldn't protect a border with a Palestinian nation.

To claim it would be some kind of suicide is not credible.

What Israel has trouble from is continued expansion and continued repression.

 

[laughing dog]

Peace is not enforced, it is achieved. Once you understand that, you will understand the silliness of your question.

I understand that the left has a major delusion in this regard. That doesn't make it true. It only takes one side to make war. The only way the other side can avoid it is to capitulate--in this case, commit suicide.

No, you don't understand. Peace is not the interim while combatants arm up for eventual battle. If one side is gearing up for war, then there really isn't peace. If you have to enforce peace, you don't really have it.

That seems to be the endgame for the left--the death of Israel.

Is it possible for you to make one post on the Middle East that does not contain bullshit straw men or the justification for continuing bloodshed?

 

[Crazy Eddie]

http://www.timesofisrael.com/pa-studies-details-of-each-terrorist-act-before-issuing-salaries/


What does it take to get some of you to admit the truth?

Your source's conclusions are based on a bullshit premise:

Congressional legislators were astonished last year to learn that the Palestinian Authority was issuing monthly payouts totaling $3-7 million as salaries and other financial rewards to specific terrorists and their families. The money was channeled, in part, through the Ministry of Prisoners pursuant to the Law of the Prisoner. The law set forth a graduated scale, pegging monthly salaries to the length of Israeli jail sentences, which generally reflects the severity of the crime and the number of people killed and/or injured.

The bolded phrase here is bullshit. In fact, it is their desire to avoid paying stipends to terrorists or the families of terrorists that is the reason for the scrutiny in the first place. A HUGE number of Palestinian prisoners have in fact been imprisoned without charge, or convicted without trial or the presentation of any corroborating evidence. The Palestinian Authority goes out of its way to avoid compensating the families of those who were arrested while clearly committing a criminal act; the fact that the Israelis never bother to bring half of these "terrorists" to trial means that legally speaking no crime has actually been committed and the PA is effectively providing public aid to the families of kidnap victims.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

Peace is not enforced, it is achieved. Once you understand that, you will understand the silliness of your question.

I understand that the left has a major delusion in this regard. That doesn't make it true. It only takes one side to make war.

Very true. Which is why, if and when Israel stops making war against the Palestinians, there will be peace.

And why will there be peace? You yourself already explained why: because the Palestinians -- all of them, every man woman and child without exception -- want to drive the Jews into the sea. It is their collective dream to reclaim all of Historic Palestine for themselves. But their leaders know that this is not doable with the current situation; they cannot defeat Israel with their existing military power, so they will need at least forty years to build up an ultra-modern world-class military capable of overcoming Israel's western-backed IDF. They will also need an ultra-modern, highly-productive economy to support a war against Israel, which will take closer to fifty years to develop first. So call it 50 to 70 years until Palestine is strong enough to accomplish that universal Palestinian dream that ALL Palestinians invariably share of one day murdering all the Jews.

That's why we know for sure the Palestinians want peace. Because they believe a long-term peace is the only way they can get strong enough to finally crush the Zionist oppressor.

And in anticipation if your inevitable objection: No, it will NOT be considerably less than 50 yo 70 years. The Palestinians could try to ATTACK them before that time, but they'd have no chance of victory, and in the event of a long-term peace, no reason to waste the ammo or the money; rather than get utterly smacked down and returned to the stone age from whence they emerged, they would continue to build up and modernize until the day they are ready to defeat Israel in a military confrontation the likes of which Israel has never seen except for the last eight times some Arab country declared war on them.

That seems to be the endgame for the left--the death of Israel.

Of course! Because as everyone knows, Israel's military is never going to get any stronger than it is now, is will not for any reason continue to upgrade and modernize while they are no longer fighting the Palestinians. So in the fifty to seventy years it will take for the Palestinians to reach military parity with their enemy from seventy years earlier, Israel is just going to quietly just sit there and watch them do it.

And of course, you know full well that the Palestinians will still harbor their genocidal hatred towards Israel after seventy years of False Peace WITH Israel results in them finally achieving peace and relative prosperity. The Palestinians don't actually want to live in peace and prosperity, they just want to kill Jews because Iran.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Peace is not enforced, it is achieved. Once you understand that, you will understand the silliness of your question.

Loren is trying stretch out both his and our learning curves for some reason and I hate to speculate what that might be. Loren is not a stupid man. He is using language we can easily see will not lead to anything diplomatic. Why? I don't know!

No, your side is playing shoot-the-messenger here. You insist it can be done yet you have no plan--you have never addressed the issue of what they see as the occupied territories.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

I understand that the left has a major delusion in this regard. That doesn't make it true. It only takes one side to make war. The only way the other side can avoid it is to capitulate--in this case, commit suicide.

That seems to be the endgame for the left--the death of Israel.

So this ends when either the Israelis push the last Palestinian into the Jordan River, of the Palestinians push the last Israeli into the Mediterranean Sea.

I don't see either scenario as a realistic solution. I find it difficult to believe anyone in the 21st century thinks political goals can be achieved through genocide. It does take two sides to make a war. We call a war with only one side shooting, a massacre.

Yeah, a one-sided war is a massacre--which is exactly what the left wants, a massacre of the Jews.

Israel has made it's bed and will have to lie in it for the foreseeable future. They have a elected a series of governments who have laid a ground work which makes peace impossible to obtain, without the Jordan River solution. Why any sensible person can't see this is a mystery. It's what the Israelis want, and I suppose some of them think it's possible.

So they have time travel? The problems started before they existed. I do agree they have done things that have increased the problem but those aren't the real issues, just convenient excuses for the left to demand they make concessions.

In the meantime, they will keep sending their children into battle, which might be called the endgame of the right, but it's not actually an end of anything.

You're making the standard error of the left--assuming there is a good answer and thus calling anything less than a good answer evil.

So long as the Islamists pour billions into war there will be war.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

I understand that the left has a major delusion in this regard. That doesn't make it true. It only takes one side to make war. The only way the other side can avoid it is to capitulate--in this case, commit suicide.

That seems to be the endgame for the left--the death of Israel.

Nobody believes for a second that Israel couldn't protect a border with a Palestinian nation.

To claim it would be some kind of suicide is not credible.

And what are they going to do, deploy deflector shields on that border??

In case you don't know what "news" means--pay attention to the rocket attacks across that border. Pay attention to the tunnels under that border. If they cease to control the Palestinian borders it's not going to be wimpy, inaccurate weapons, either.

What Israel has trouble from is continued expansion and continued repression.

Repeating this ad-nauseum doesn't make it true.

- - - Updated - - -

I understand that the left has a major delusion in this regard. That doesn't make it true. It only takes one side to make war. The only way the other side can avoid it is to capitulate--in this case, commit suicide.

No, you don't understand. Peace is not the interim while combatants arm up for eventual battle. If one side is gearing up for war, then there really isn't peace. If you have to enforce peace, you don't really have it.

That seems to be the endgame for the left--the death of Israel.

Is it possible for you to make one post on the Middle East that does not contain bullshit straw men or the justification for continuing bloodshed?

Once again you avoid the point.

Everything from the left basically is Israel should lay down arms and everything will be fine.

Since you think suicide is the answer, why don't you try it yourself to prove how good it is?

 

[ksen]

Everything from the left basically is Israel should lay down arms and everything will be fine.

link?

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Your source's conclusions are based on a bullshit premise:

Congressional legislators were astonished last year to learn that the Palestinian Authority was issuing monthly payouts totaling $3-7 million as salaries and other financial rewards to specific terrorists and their families. The money was channeled, in part, through the Ministry of Prisoners pursuant to the Law of the Prisoner. The law set forth a graduated scale, pegging monthly salaries to the length of Israeli jail sentences, which generally reflects the severity of the crime and the number of people killed and/or injured.

The bolded phrase here is bullshit. In fact, it is their desire to avoid paying stipends to terrorists or the families of terrorists that is the reason for the scrutiny in the first place. A HUGE number of Palestinian prisoners have in fact been imprisoned without charge, or convicted without trial or the presentation of any corroborating evidence. The Palestinian Authority goes out of its way to avoid compensating the families of those who were arrested while clearly committing a criminal act; the fact that the Israelis never bother to bring half of these "terrorists" to trial means that legally speaking no crime has actually been committed and the PA is effectively providing public aid to the families of kidnap victims.

Calling it bullshit doesn't make it so.

http://www.courthousenews.com/2015/02/09/weeping-juror-rankles-lawyer-in-terror-trial.htm

It shows the PA continued to pay a suicide bomber for months after he blew himself up, and also paid his beneficiaries for years afterwards. (In both cases, this is simply as far as the provided documents go.)


(And, please, no gripes about the lawsuit itself. I don't agree with it. The relevant material is the attached documents but without the article itself they're basically meaningless.)

 

[Loren Pechtel]

I understand that the left has a major delusion in this regard. That doesn't make it true. It only takes one side to make war.

Very true. Which is why, if and when Israel stops making war against the Palestinians, there will be peace.

Reality check: The history over there is periods of low-level attacks from the terrorists occasionally broken by heavier waves of attacks to which Israel responds by hammering them.

No terrorist attacks, Israel wouldn't be shooting back.

And why will there be peace? You yourself already explained why: because the Palestinians -- all of them, every man woman and child without exception -- want to drive the Jews into the sea. It is their collective dream to reclaim all of Historic Palestine for themselves. But their leaders know that this is not doable with the current situation; they cannot defeat Israel with their existing military power, so they will need at least forty years to build up an ultra-modern world-class military capable of overcoming Israel's western-backed IDF. They will also need an ultra-modern, highly-productive economy to support a war against Israel, which will take closer to fifty years to develop first. So call it 50 to 70 years until Palestine is strong enough to accomplish that universal Palestinian dream that ALL Palestinians invariably share of one day murdering all the Jews.

What the leaders know is irrelevant. They'll keep attacking so long as they receive the Islamist money for doing so.

And of course, you know full well that the Palestinians will still harbor their genocidal hatred towards Israel after seventy years of False Peace WITH Israel results in them finally achieving peace and relative prosperity. The Palestinians don't actually want to live in peace and prosperity, they just want to kill Jews because Iran.

They were the most prosperous Arab nation that didn't have oil before the terrorists wrecked that.

And we have seen plenty of Islamist hatred that's lasted longer than 70 years.


(Never mind that the false "peace" they are after always specifically says they don't have to stop terrorists on their soil but Israel can't respond to those terrorists without breaking the "peace".)

 

[arkirk]

Loren is trying stretch out both his and our learning curves for some reason and I hate to speculate what that might be. Loren is not a stupid man. He is using language we can easily see will not lead to anything diplomatic. Why? I don't know!

No, your side is playing shoot-the-messenger here. You insist it can be done yet you have no plan--you have never addressed the issue of what they see as the occupied territories.

So you're some kind of messenger? And just what is that message? It is a frozen prejudice we have been living with ever since the days of Begin and Mayer. They told us in no uncertain terms that the Palestinians were sub humans incapable of tolerance, living primitive lives, full of hatred for the people of God. Eventually, after hearing this message for a period in excess of fifty years, folks like Loren have essentially reinterpreted the word "GOD" to mean CIVILIZATION. I am sure there are many Arab Muslims in the world WITH A PROFOUND DESIRE FOR CIVILIZATION who could accept the existence of Jews in the world IF THERE ONLY WAS A JUST PEACE. This is an issue Loren refuses to admit. By the same token, given a grossly negative bit of real repression in U.S. militarily and economically dominated countries all over the world, groups like ISIS, Boca Haram and AQ keep receiving Golda' and Begin's message from our U.S. weapons. This only hardens their positions and gives them a fresh supply of deeply injured new recruits.

You get what you are looking for if you go to these places...unless you are there for humanitarian purposes, and even then, you sometimes get what you are looking for...unless you become a victim of the ongoing violence caused by us sponsoring of these conflicts. Jews like Atzmon and Finkelstein who reflect more humanistic thinking and seeking of peace in their community are the recipients of this very "kill the messenger" attitude that Loren so loudly broadcasts. Loren makes it a crime to seek anything good in any Muslim. Loren is not bringing anything new to the table in this discussion. He is just rebroadcasting the Begin message and we have been hearing that for 60+ years.

PA compensation for the families of political prisoners is not paying terrorists and Loren, I believe deep inside knows this, even though he cannot outwardly admit it.

 

[Bronzeage]

So this ends when either the Israelis push the last Palestinian into the Jordan River, of the Palestinians push the last Israeli into the Mediterranean Sea.

I don't see either scenario as a realistic solution. I find it difficult to believe anyone in the 21st century thinks political goals can be achieved through genocide. It does take two sides to make a war. We call a war with only one side shooting, a massacre.

Yeah, a one-sided war is a massacre--which is exactly what the left wants, a massacre of the Jews.

Israel has made it's bed and will have to lie in it for the foreseeable future. They have a elected a series of governments who have laid a ground work which makes peace impossible to obtain, without the Jordan River solution. Why any sensible person can't see this is a mystery. It's what the Israelis want, and I suppose some of them think it's possible.

So they have time travel? The problems started before they existed. I do agree they have done things that have increased the problem but those aren't the real issues, just convenient excuses for the left to demand they make concessions.

In the meantime, they will keep sending their children into battle, which might be called the endgame of the right, but it's not actually an end of anything.

You're making the standard error of the left--assuming there is a good answer and thus calling anything less than a good answer evil.

So long as the Islamists pour billions into war there will be war.

Time travel is an excellent solution, since all the sensible solutions have been made impossible by past actions.

I can see why you think there is not "good" answer. Israel missed the chance for the good answer, so what's left are a variety of bad answers. It doesn't help that they have a chorus of cheerleaders who beat the drums and tell them to keep up the good work. Israel's only endgame in this matter is genocide. No one wants to say this out loud, but if they follow their current path to a lasting peace, they will have to kill all the Palestinians they meet along the way.

There are too many practical reasons why they can't can't accomplish this. There are too many Palestinians in other countries, so it's just not a practical plan. So what happens when you realize the only winning strategy is not possible? We are looking at it. Israel is not going to allow the formation of a true Palestinian state and they are not going to give equal citizenship and rights to people who live in the land they control. The ground between these two points will be blood soaked and it will be surrounded by cheerleaders who believe it's possible to kill for peace.

 

[Jayjay]

Very true. Which is why, if and when Israel stops making war against the Palestinians, there will be peace.

Reality check: The history over there is periods of low-level attacks from the terrorists occasionally broken by heavier waves of attacks to which Israel responds by hammering them.

Here is another reality check: every country is under "low-level attacks from the terrorists", for some value of "low". United States had 9/11, France has terrorists shooting cartoonists, and so on. Israel is under more attacks becasue it is aggressively annexing land and due to historical grievances. But qualitatively there is no difference and such attacks even at the level faced by Israel are manageable. As for heavier attacks, that just shows that Israel is capable of defending itself. It was able to defend itself in 1967, and it has been able to defend all its other borders just fine. Hezbollah has far more potent weaponry and Israel had no trouble defending its northern border during the 2006 war.

Pretending that there is something about the Palestinian border is based on a racist notion that Palestinians, among all Arabs and other people in the world, are barbarians who are incapable of anything but violence, regardless of circumstances or how they are treated. Of course, violence perpetrated by Israel breeds violence in its neighbours and it starts to have a momemtum of its own that is difficult to remove, but hyperbole that Israel would be committing "suicide" if it just stops land theft or stops treating Palestinians like subhuman rabble in a Ghetto, is not based on reality.

 

[funinspace]

I understand that the left has a major delusion in this regard. That doesn't make it true. It only takes one side to make war. The only way the other side can avoid it is to capitulate--in this case, commit suicide.

That seems to be the endgame for the left--the death of Israel.

So this ends when either the Israelis push the last Palestinian into the Jordan River, of the Palestinians push the last Israeli into the Mediterranean Sea.

Well…Israel could always film a re-enactment of one of the Plagues upon Egypt while butchering a few million people. Though the Jordan River is barely a trickle compared to the Nile. I think it would be more a damning of the river, than into the river.

Another funny thing with our love affair with Israel, is how they pretty much got away with killing a bunch of our sailors and sinking a US Navy ship back in 1967…

 

[Bronzeage]

So this ends when either the Israelis push the last Palestinian into the Jordan River, of the Palestinians push the last Israeli into the Mediterranean Sea.

Well…Israel could always film a re-enactment of one of the Plagues upon Egypt while butchering a few million people. Though the Jordan River is barely a trickle compared to the Nile. I think it would be more a damning of the river, than into the river.

Another funny thing with our love affair with Israel, is how they pretty much got away with killing a bunch of our sailors and sinking a US Navy ship back in 1967…

Yeah, that comes up every once in a while.

I think there will peace between Israel and Palestine, but not in our lifetime. Maybe in 30 or 50 years. The leaders on both sides are too concerned with retaining power. All the idiots in the present generation will have to be gone before some kind of common sense is brought to the situation.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

No, your side is playing shoot-the-messenger here. You insist it can be done yet you have no plan--you have never addressed the issue of what they see as the occupied territories.

So you're some kind of messenger? And just what is that message?

You're attacking me because you don't like what I'm saying: That you have no viable plan.

You continue to show you have no plan--it's always if Israel surrenders everything all will be fine.

You get what you are looking for if you go to these places...unless you are there for humanitarian purposes, and even then, you sometimes get what you are looking for...unless you become a victim of the ongoing violence caused by us sponsoring of these conflicts. Jews like Atzmon and Finkelstein who reflect more humanistic thinking and seeking of peace in their community are the recipients of this very "kill the messenger" attitude that Loren so loudly broadcasts. Loren makes it a crime to seek anything good in any Muslim. Loren is not bringing anything new to the table in this discussion. He is just rebroadcasting the Begin message and we have been hearing that for 60+ years.

Look at the world's trouble spots. Almost all are related to Islamists.

PA compensation for the families of political prisoners is not paying terrorists and Loren, I believe deep inside knows this, even though he cannot outwardly admit it.

I showed a suicide bomber who was paid. You know a suicide bomber isn't a political prisoner.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Time travel is an excellent solution, since all the sensible solutions have been made impossible by past actions.

My comment about time travel was due to the fact that Israel is being blamed for a situation that predates the existence of Israel. The only way that could be is if Israel has time travel.

I can see why you think there is not "good" answer. Israel missed the chance for the good answer, so what's left are a variety of bad answers. It doesn't help that they have a chorus of cheerleaders who beat the drums and tell them to keep up the good work. Israel's only endgame in this matter is genocide. No one wants to say this out loud, but if they follow their current path to a lasting peace, they will have to kill all the Palestinians they meet along the way.

Once again ignoring history. The problems existed before the occupation that you blame for all the ills over there.

There are too many practical reasons why they can't can't accomplish this. There are too many Palestinians in other countries, so it's just not a practical plan. So what happens when you realize the only winning strategy is not possible? We are looking at it. Israel is not going to allow the formation of a true Palestinian state and they are not going to give equal citizenship and rights to people who live in the land they control. The ground between these two points will be blood soaked and it will be surrounded by cheerleaders who believe it's possible to kill for peace.

The Palestinians are pawns, what they want doesn't matter in the big picture. The important thing is what their backers want--and that's war, war, war.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Reality check: The history over there is periods of low-level attacks from the terrorists occasionally broken by heavier waves of attacks to which Israel responds by hammering them.

Here is another reality check: every country is under "low-level attacks from the terrorists", for some value of "low". United States had 9/11, France has terrorists shooting cartoonists, and so on. Israel is under more attacks becasue it is aggressively annexing land and due to historical grievances. But qualitatively there is no difference and such attacks even at the level faced by Israel are manageable. As for heavier attacks, that just shows that Israel is capable of defending itself. It was able to defend itself in 1967, and it has been able to defend all its other borders just fine. Hezbollah has far more potent weaponry and Israel had no trouble defending its northern border during the 2006 war.

Pretending that there is something about the Palestinian border is based on a racist notion that Palestinians, among all Arabs and other people in the world, are barbarians who are incapable of anything but violence, regardless of circumstances or how they are treated. Of course, violence perpetrated by Israel breeds violence in its neighbours and it starts to have a momemtum of its own that is difficult to remove, but hyperbole that Israel would be committing "suicide" if it just stops land theft or stops treating Palestinians like subhuman rabble in a Ghetto, is not based on reality.

So you think the right thing to do is just eat the attacks and not respond?

Hamas has shown that if they want war they'll up the ante until they get it. Things like firing rockets at chemical factories.

The only sensible way for Israel to protect itself is to smack Hamas when Hamas wants to be smacked. It may be hard for you to understand Hamas wanting to be attacked but it's in their interest--the core leadership does things like hide in the main hospital so they don't get hurt, meanwhile they increase their control of the country.