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Nutrition (Sugar/Fat/etc...)

Good question, because a carb is not a carb is not a carb. A bowl of ice cream or a giant sugary drink is not a plant. Neither is white bread that's got 50 ingredients. So there are differences.

Lots of folks just think "Carbohydrate is bad" and take it no further. I really don't know what's in the mind of someone who drinks a sugar free diet soda. I don't know what they are trying to do.

Carbohydrates are generally bad, and are implicated more and more in all of the diseases and conditions of the Western way of eating. That something bad can be mitigated or made partly better does not change the fact that it's mostly bad. This gets to your "a carb is not a carb" comment. What differentiates different sources of carbohydrates, and makes some "healthier" than others, is just how easy it is for your body to absorb the actual carbohydrates. The easier it is, the less healthy the food. The only reason refined carbohydrates are called junk carbs and whole wheat is called healthy carbs is because of all the stuff in whole wheat that interferes with your body's absorption of its carbohydrate content. Fiber, on its own, is not healthy; it's just good to have around as a barrier between the carbs and your bloodstream. Why bother with the carbs in the first place?

I mean, this paragraph alone is completely loaded. You start right out of the gate saying 'carbohydrates are bad' but completely miss the essence of the conversation I started. You're making claim after claim without any science backing any of it up.

Yes carbs are implicated in a lot of disease but this is because eating refined, processed sugar is pretty much a pathology in modern society. No argument there. My question wasn't whether drinking 6 cokes a day is bad, it's whether having a few pieces of fruit a day may have any ill effects, which your post does not address with any science.
 
Good question, because a carb is not a carb is not a carb. A bowl of ice cream or a giant sugary drink is not a plant. Neither is white bread that's got 50 ingredients. So there are differences.

Lots of folks just think "Carbohydrate is bad" and take it no further. I really don't know what's in the mind of someone who drinks a sugar free diet soda. I don't know what they are trying to do.

Carbohydrates are generally bad, and are implicated more and more in all of the diseases and conditions of the Western way of eating. That something bad can be mitigated or made partly better does not change the fact that it's mostly bad. This gets to your "a carb is not a carb" comment. What differentiates different sources of carbohydrates, and makes some "healthier" than others, is just how easy it is for your body to absorb the actual carbohydrates. The easier it is, the less healthy the food. The only reason refined carbohydrates are called junk carbs and whole wheat is called healthy carbs is because of all the stuff in whole wheat that interferes with your body's absorption of its carbohydrate content. Fiber, on its own, is not healthy; it's just good to have around as a barrier between the carbs and your bloodstream. Why bother with the carbs in the first place?

Fruits and vegetables are different evolutionary strategies in practice. Fruits want to be plucked and eaten so their seeds can be spread around, which is why they taste so good and provide at least some vitamins (though no required nutrients that we can't get from meat). Vegetables don't get much out of being eaten, and since they can't run or fly away from predators, evolved a huge array of anti-nutrient toxins that render them basically inedible to the majority of animals. Most wild vegetables, to this day, are inedible to humans unless cooked, and much of the nutrients they contain is not absorbed at all because of the indigestible components. We have engineered certain species to be easier on our systems, but all this shows is that we never needed them to begin with, as these are without exception millennia younger than our digestive systems.

There is no actual need for any carbs at all in the human diet, which makes sense as we evolved during times when they would have been so scarce compared to meat that we couldn't justify spending the energy to find them. Our ancestors thrived in deserts, ice ages, and plains before learning about agriculture, and with occasional opportunistic exceptions favored meat for most or all of their nutritional needs. I'm not saying we should all eat like that today just because they did it back then, I'm just saying this is prima facie evidence that our bodies are well-adapted to life without any carbs at all. How numerous, energy-rich, and palatable do you imagine the local flora were before we learned how to breed plants that actually taste good and grow all year-round? Sure, our ancestors ate plants, but we're not talking kale salads with sweet corn, we're talking bland tubers from the bottom of a lake that they relied upon as an absolute last resort. And if they got lucky, some berries that weren't poisonous.

Meat, on the other hand, has been the same nutrient-dense, delicious, easily digestible energy source that it was a million years ago. It helped us grow big brains compared to the rest of our bodies, which in turn helped us devise better hunting strategies, and that feedback loop is really what made humans human.

There is a growing community of people who, like me, eat nothing except for meat every day of their lives. Some have been at it for years, some for decades, and with almost no exceptions they report excellent health, great cholesterol numbers, more energy, and a complete lack of obesity. Gut disorders vanish (in my case this has been a miracle), inflammation doesn't happen anymore except when it's needed, bloating is a thing of the past, and every meal is just as satisfying as the last.

I'll again add the parting disclaimer that my purpose in mentioning all this is NOT to say that everybody should adopt this diet. I don't care what you eat if you are happy and healthy, and there is more than one way to achieve that balance. Rather, I am only trying to refute the claim made by others that MY diet cannot be healthy, because it is lacking in certain components necessary for my health and prosperity, namely plant matter. The assumption is that the burden of proof should be on me to show why we DON'T need to eat plants, when scientifically, there is no compelling evidence to justify that default position. Based on our evolutionary past and an emerging body of research, the onus is the other way around. If you want me to believe that I need carbohydrates for any reason, or that I should be consuming plants regularly, show me what I am missing and why I need it, and explain how so many people (both 100,000 years ago and today) are managing just fine if not better-than-average without them.

I'm all for providing evidence to back up my claims. I'm just not going to listen to the claims of anyone else if they aren't themselves backed up. Like I said before I couldn't care less what my end position on any given nutrient is, I just want that end position to be accurate. If you don't want to provide the science behind your diet, fair enough, in turn I'm just going to take what you say with a grain of salt and do my own research instead.

I don't think it really makes sense in a thread like this to play 'who's right' games, but if you're going to make a claim about something then verify it with something substantive. If you can't verify your claim with something substantive, then why do you hold it?

I've posted like 7 papers by now, dude. Did you look at any of them?
 
I'm all for providing evidence to back up my claims. I'm just not going to listen to the claims of anyone else if they aren't themselves backed up. Like I said before I couldn't care less what my end position on any given nutrient is, I just want that end position to be accurate. If you don't want to provide the science behind your diet, fair enough, in turn I'm just going to take what you say with a grain of salt and do my own research instead.

I don't think it really makes sense in a thread like this to play 'who's right' games, but if you're going to make a claim about something then verify it with something substantive. If you can't verify your claim with something substantive, then why do you hold it?

I've posted like 7 papers by now, dude. Did you look at any of them?

I read them all, and none of them address the conversation that we're having right now. This isn't about your high fat diet, it's about carbs.
 
I would add that:

The easier it is, the less healthy the food.

There is no actual need for any carbs at all in the human diet, which makes sense as we evolved during times when they would have been so scarce compared to meat that we couldn't justify spending the energy to find them. Our ancestors thrived in deserts, ice ages, and plains before learning about agriculture, and with occasional opportunistic exceptions favored meat for most or all of their nutritional needs. I'm not saying we should all eat like that today just because they did it back then, I'm just saying this is prima facie evidence that our bodies are well-adapted to life without any carbs at all. How numerous, energy-rich, and palatable do you imagine the local flora were before we learned how to breed plants that actually taste good and grow all year-round? Sure, our ancestors ate plants, but we're not talking kale salads with sweet corn, we're talking bland tubers from the bottom of a lake that they relied upon as an absolute last resort. And if they got lucky, some berries that weren't poisonous.

Meat, on the other hand, has been the same nutrient-dense, delicious, easily digestible energy source that it was a million years ago. It helped us grow big brains compared to the rest of our bodies, which in turn helped us devise better hunting strategies, and that feedback loop is really what made humans human.

I don't disagree with the above. I have no doubt that people can thrive without carbs. But I don't think that necessarily lends itself to the science of a carb-free diet, though. I think it just means that for day to day survival meat offers people a better payback than fruits and vegetables.

Whether meat/produce or meat alone are better for you remains to be seen, based on everything I've seen in this thread so far. My only anecdotal evidence here is that produce makes me feel really good. And food making you feel good is usually a sign that your body wants it.

As for carbs themselves, I think you'd get into questions surrounding them being an easy, plentiful, and cheap food source. The question becomes less about how healthy they are, and more about how they add to overall survival strategy. To me, the take home would be basically to eat carbs from natural sources, and tend toward the complex varieties.
 
First of all, I am diabetic. I am missing a big toe to diabetes. I have had a ring side seat about this and have had a lot of meetings with various doctors.

One. Stop eating sugar if you can. Heavy use of sugar over long periods of you life has a good chance of giving you problems later in life. Carbohydrates should be eaten in moderation. If one is diabetic or pre-diabetic, a diet high in carbohydrates is as bad as eating sugar. Carbohydrates become glucose in your system. Fruits are usually heavy in fructose, not as bad as sucrose, table sugar, but bad for weight gain. Having parts of your own personal anatomy amputated because of complications of diabetes is much to be avoided.

Diabetes also damages kidneys and eyes. Learn from my bad experiences and cut down on sugar and be careful of heavy carbohydrate consumption.
 
First of all, I am diabetic. I am missing a big toe to diabetes. I have had a ring side seat about this and have had a lot of meetings with various doctors.

One. Stop eating sugar if you can. Heavy use of sugar over long periods of you life has a good chance of giving you problems later in life. Carbohydrates should be eaten in moderation. If one is diabetic or pre-diabetic, a diet high in carbohydrates is as bad as eating sugar. Carbohydrates become glucose in your system. Fruits are usually heavy in fructose, not as bad as sucrose, table sugar, but bad for weight gain. Having parts of your own personal anatomy amputated because of complications of diabetes is much to be avoided.

Diabetes also damages kidneys and eyes. Learn from my bad experiences and cut down on sugar and be careful of heavy carbohydrate consumption.

Okay, I'm going to assume you are expertly informed on carbohydrate consumption because you are diabetic. Tell me if you can eat what I had for lunch today without aggravating your condition. I ate:

Black beans
Peas
Kalamata Olives
Capers
Brown Rice
Carots
Green Beans
Olive Oil

My goal is to live as long and as healthy as possible. I'm doing pretty well at 65 and I eat mostly plants. No sugary drinks and very little sugar in my diet.

Thank-you
 
First of all, I am diabetic. I am missing a big toe to diabetes. I have had a ring side seat about this and have had a lot of meetings with various doctors.

One. Stop eating sugar if you can. Heavy use of sugar over long periods of you life has a good chance of giving you problems later in life. Carbohydrates should be eaten in moderation. If one is diabetic or pre-diabetic, a diet high in carbohydrates is as bad as eating sugar. Carbohydrates become glucose in your system. Fruits are usually heavy in fructose, not as bad as sucrose, table sugar, but bad for weight gain. Having parts of your own personal anatomy amputated because of complications of diabetes is much to be avoided.

Diabetes also damages kidneys and eyes. Learn from my bad experiences and cut down on sugar and be careful of heavy carbohydrate consumption.

Okay, I'm going to assume you are expertly informed on carbohydrate consumption because you are diabetic. Tell me if you can eat what I had for lunch today without aggravating your condition. I ate:

Black beans
Peas
Kalamata Olives
Capers
Brown Rice
Carots
Green Beans
Olive Oil

My goal is to live as long and as healthy as possible. I'm doing pretty well at 65 and I eat mostly plants. No sugary drinks and very little sugar in my diet.

Thank-you


If you are doing well, keep it up. Being over weight is a problem for developing diabetes. Corn and peas are high in sugar. Carbs as such will not hurt you unless you overdo them. If one has a weight problem, one already knows to lose weight, cut back on carbs. Bread is a big problem for some, it is easy to go over board on bread and get fat from it. Blood pressure is something to watch. Many diabetics also have high blood pressure. Strokes and heart attacks can be caused by that. Being over weight aggravates that.

Lunch meats and stuff with lots of nitrates should be avoided for those of us with blood pressure problems. Once, at a doctor's appointment, a blood pressure check had my BP so high I get sent immediately to the emergency room. Not good. I am now currently in a long term medical study and I have a blood pressure monitor I take my BP on every day. I have it pretty well under control with medications. If one is older and over weight, it would not hurt to check you BP occasionally. Such meters cost about $35 or so, and can help in gauging effects of diet etc. Chronic high blood pressure and diabetes and pre-diabetes go hand in hand.

Part of all of this is genetics. The big problem with all of this is that it sneaks up on you and hits suddenly.
 
First of all, I am diabetic. I am missing a big toe to diabetes. I have had a ring side seat about this and have had a lot of meetings with various doctors.

One. Stop eating sugar if you can. Heavy use of sugar over long periods of you life has a good chance of giving you problems later in life. Carbohydrates should be eaten in moderation. If one is diabetic or pre-diabetic, a diet high in carbohydrates is as bad as eating sugar. Carbohydrates become glucose in your system. Fruits are usually heavy in fructose, not as bad as sucrose, table sugar, but bad for weight gain. Having parts of your own personal anatomy amputated because of complications of diabetes is much to be avoided.

Diabetes also damages kidneys and eyes. Learn from my bad experiences and cut down on sugar and be careful of heavy carbohydrate consumption.

Okay, I'm going to assume you are expertly informed on carbohydrate consumption because you are diabetic. Tell me if you can eat what I had for lunch today without aggravating your condition. I ate:

Black beans
Peas
Kalamata Olives
Capers
Brown Rice
Carots
Green Beans
Olive Oil

My goal is to live as long and as healthy as possible. I'm doing pretty well at 65 and I eat mostly plants. No sugary drinks and very little sugar in my diet.

Thank-you


If you are doing well, keep it up. Being over weight is a problem for developing diabetes. Corn and peas are high in sugar. Carbs as such will not hurt you unless you overdo them. If one has a weight problem, one already knows to lose weight, cut back on carbs. Bread is a big problem for some, it is easy to go over board on bread and get fat from it. Blood pressure is something to watch. Many diabetics also have high blood pressure. Strokes and heart attacks can be caused by that. Being over weight aggravates that.

Lunch meats and stuff with lots of nitrates should be avoided for those of us with blood pressure problems. Once, at a doctor's appointment, a blood pressure check had my BP so high I get sent immediately to the emergency room. Not good. I am now currently in a long term medical study and I have a blood pressure monitor I take my BP on every day. I have it pretty well under control with medications. If one is older and over weight, it would not hurt to check you BP occasionally. Such meters cost about $35 or so, and can help in gauging effects of diet etc. Chronic high blood pressure and diabetes and pre-diabetes go hand in hand.

Part of all of this is genetics. The big problem with all of this is that it sneaks up on you and hits suddenly.

Thank-you!

What is interesting in that is that I eat animal flesh maybe once a week, so it's plant carbs and protein 99% of the time. All other things like BP are good. I can't imagine my diet being a problem for type 2 diabetics simply because not all carbs are created equal. I would think that over eating and junk carbs would be the problem and the experts seem to agree with me. Hence my choice of diet.

High meat consumption is associated with cancer to the best of my knowledge, so I limit it. Don't want to be a chronic cancer sufferer. Folks live for years with cancer but it's definitely a bummer wrt quality of life. I had hoped pyramidhead might touch on that subject.
 
High meat consumption is associated with cancer to the best of my knowledge, so I limit it. Don't want to be a chronic cancer sufferer. Folks live for years with cancer but it's definitely a bummer wrt quality of life. I had hoped pyramidhead might touch on that subject.

I don't have a lot of time right now to link to all the analyses, but this article goes into a lot of detail about why that conclusion is mistaken and includes many references: http://www.diagnosisdiet.com/meat-and-cancer/

Especially this meta-analysis:

Conclusion: On the basis of the results of this quantitative assessment, the available epidemiologic evidence does not appear to support an independent association between animal fat intake or animal protein intake and colorectal cancer.

Basically, my view on it is this: for generations, we have been told that meat is unhealthy. Therefore, it is unsurprising that people with unhealthy lifestyles tend to overlap less with people who intentionally limit their meat consumption. This makes any association between meat eating and cancer suspicious. Compounding that fact is the reality that the vast majority of study subjects in any American research program consume large quantities of carbohydrates (the definition of "low carb" in many such papers is <150 g a day, 10x higher than the threshold commonly used by people on a ketogenic diet and more than enough to trigger the glycemic response). The effects of meat by itself have never been studied in a context where one study group ate only meat and the other ate none.

All that said, I agree with rousseau that I can be hobby-horsey about this stuff from time to time, so I won't go too far off topic.
 
My wife and I just watched this last night: The Magic Pill. It's pretty much exactly what you two are discussing (i.e., the Keto Diet). Excellent documentary in its own right, but it follows real life case studies on a high fat/low carb diet and how effective it is (as well as in depth on the science behind it).

My apologies if someone posted this previously, I just jumped in midstream.
 
There is nothing more sobering than hearing a surgeon telling you that you will lose your big toe, but they hope to save your foot. Cut the sugar, watch those carbs. As far as meats, avoid the fats. If I eat a salami sandwich, salamis has lots of fat, my blood sugar spikes quite high. That won't hurt you much if you are not diabetic or pre-diabetic, but is much to be avoided if you are.
 
There is nothing more sobering than hearing a surgeon telling you that you will lose your big toe, but they hope to save your foot. Cut the sugar, watch those carbs. As far as meats, avoid the fats. If I eat a salami sandwich, salamis has lots of fat, my blood sugar spikes quite high. That won't hurt you much if you are not diabetic or pre-diabetic, but is much to be avoided if you are.

That makes sense based on the latest information, namely that it is the fat that causes insulin resistance.
 
My wife and I just watched this last night: The Magic Pill. It's pretty much exactly what you two are discussing (i.e., the Keto Diet). Excellent documentary in its own right, but it follows real life case studies on a high fat/low carb diet and how effective it is (as well as in depth on the science behind it).

My apologies if someone posted this previously, I just jumped in midstream.

Sounds like a good show to watch. Maybe I can catch it on netflix soon. The trailer leads me to think that it reinforces what we've been discussing, that a diet of real food, plants and meats, is healthy. Okay.

So whatever you're eating, get rid of the processed junk, be it carbs or meats, and just eat the real McCoy.
 
There is nothing more sobering than hearing a surgeon telling you that you will lose your big toe, but they hope to save your foot. Cut the sugar, watch those carbs. As far as meats, avoid the fats. If I eat a salami sandwich, salamis has lots of fat, my blood sugar spikes quite high. That won't hurt you much if you are not diabetic or pre-diabetic, but is much to be avoided if you are.

That makes sense based on the latest information, namely that it is the fat that causes insulin resistance.

Link to this information please?
 
There is nothing more sobering than hearing a surgeon telling you that you will lose your big toe, but they hope to save your foot. Cut the sugar, watch those carbs. As far as meats, avoid the fats. If I eat a salami sandwich, salamis has lots of fat, my blood sugar spikes quite high. That won't hurt you much if you are not diabetic or pre-diabetic, but is much to be avoided if you are.

That makes sense based on the latest information, namely that it is the fat that causes insulin resistance.

Link to this information please?

Rather than my posting links you can google "Does fat cause insulin resistance?" Take your pick. There are arguments on both sides.
 
Link to this information please?

Rather than my posting links you can google "Does fat cause insulin resistance?" Take your pick. There are arguments on both sides.

Part of the problems with such studies is that not everybody is alike. Some people have "good" genetics, some have "bad" genetics. A person whose bad habits over a lifetime have caused a pre-diabetic condition, developing into full blown diabetes, who does not know that, could be in trouble with a diet that causes no immediate harm to a younger person whose bad eating habits have yet to catch up with them. Take all studies with a grain of salt and err to the conservative side. Especially if you are getting older and have no idea what your average blood pressure,and glucose levels are.
 
My wife and I just watched this last night: The Magic Pill. It's pretty much exactly what you two are discussing (i.e., the Keto Diet). Excellent documentary in its own right, but it follows real life case studies on a high fat/low carb diet and how effective it is (as well as in depth on the science behind it).

My apologies if someone posted this previously, I just jumped in midstream.

Sounds like a good show to watch. Maybe I can catch it on netflix soon. The trailer leads me to think that it reinforces what we've been discussing, that a diet of real food, plants and meats, is healthy. Okay.

So whatever you're eating, get rid of the processed junk, be it carbs or meats, and just eat the real McCoy.

Pretty much exactly that, but it not only goes in depth as to why, it actually follows several case studies (including a child with autism) and how a high fat/low carb diet radically changes their lives for the better and in a relatively short time (around five weeks I believe is the first marker).
 
There is nothing more sobering than hearing a surgeon telling you that you will lose your big toe, but they hope to save your foot. Cut the sugar, watch those carbs. As far as meats, avoid the fats. If I eat a salami sandwich, salamis has lots of fat, my blood sugar spikes quite high.

Actually, it is more likely the carbs/sugars in the bread (and/or the wheat) that is causing the blood sugar spikes, not the high fat.

ETA: A link within one of the links from PyramidHead addresses cancer and the ketogenic diet. FYI for anyone interested.

And here’s a Keto Diet For Beginners site.
 
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Link to this information please?

Rather than my posting links you can google "Does fat cause insulin resistance?" Take your pick. There are arguments on both sides.

Part of the problems with such studies is that not everybody is alike. Some people have "good" genetics, some have "bad" genetics. A person whose bad habits over a lifetime have caused a pre-diabetic condition, developing into full blown diabetes, who does not know that, could be in trouble with a diet that causes no immediate harm to a younger person whose bad eating habits have yet to catch up with them. Take all studies with a grain of salt and err to the conservative side. Especially if you are getting older and have no idea what your average blood pressure,and glucose levels are.

That's about as true a statement there is. No doubt genetics are a major influence.

Prediabetes and type 2 are basically pancreatic functions influenced by genetics and diet. I have been reading much about how saturated animal fat is very hard on pancreatic cells that secrete insulin causing them to die, so that type 2 comes on for a long time before the condition becomes acute.

Certainly it is better to live to 50 years and then die of type 2 complications on a given diet than to starve. In this case living to 60 becomes impossible for groups of people. The mechanism is not unlike sickle cell anemia in that respect. So the wild card is certainly genetics. But it is good to see us waking up to the fact that some of the stuff we eat is harmful, genetics or not. I for one hesitate to even call it food. I have referred to it in the past as recreational eating.
 
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