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Nutrition (Sugar/Fat/etc...)

One study done this year supplies evidence that eating a lot of saturated fat has long term consequences.

http://jagwire.augusta.edu/archives/52420

A single high-fat milkshake, with a fat and calorie content similar to some enticing restaurant fare, can quickly transform our healthy red blood cells into small, spiky cells that wreak havoc inside our blood vessels and help set the perfect stage for cardiovascular disease, scientists report.

Just four hours after consuming a milkshake made with whole milk, heavy whipping cream and ice cream, healthy young men also had blood vessels less able to relax and an immune response similar to one provoked by an infection, the team of Medical College of Georgia scientists report in the journal Laboratory Investigation.

While the dramatic, unhealthy shift was likely temporary in these healthy individuals, the scientists say there is a definite cumulative toll from this type of eating, and that their study could help explain isolated reports of death and/or heart attack right after eating a super-high fat meal.

There's a lot more detailed info in the link. I personally despise eating high fat foods other than nuts, sweets and avocados. I won't tell anyone else how to eat, but what's worked for me is eating a wide variety of foods, mostly plant based, with small servings of lean meats, chicken and fish. My weigh is perfect for my height. I haven't had as much as a cold in several years. And, I enjoy a vigorous aerobic routine at least 150 minutes a week. I personally believe that everything in moderation is the best diet for most of us. It's fine to drink that Coke, if you only have one or two a week. It's not fine to drink two liters a day, like some people do. There is no perfect diet. We humans evolved as a species that was able to consume a wide variety of foods. So, as a first world inhabitant, I certainly appreciate the variety of foods available to me.

One note about bacon. Even if you don't think the fat will hurt you, don't forget about the way that stuff is processed. That's probably the worst thing about bacon.
 
The truth about fats: the good, the bad, and the in-between

This is from 2017, which points to the studies you mention. This quote seems to sum it up well:

One meta-analysis of 21 studies said that there was not enough evidence to conclude that saturated fat increases the risk of heart disease, but that replacing saturated fat with polyunsaturated fat may indeed reduce risk of heart disease.

At this stage of the game it feels like roulette to me. I'd rather just stray away from red meat and toward seafood.

This page, and really the whole site, is a good source of information about the emerging picture of nutrition that goes against much of what was established in the last century. I would also recommend her article on cholesterol.

You're correct of course that the book is not open-and-shut by any means. But really, different diets that all occupy the same neighborhood of "stay away from food that is obviously trash" are probably on relatively equal footing when you consider the vast range of eating styles our species has dabbled in. We're not going to live forever anyway.

I would just hesitate to equivocate a debunked study with confirmation that there is definitely no causal link between saturated fat and heart disease. And I'd add that some of the healthiest people in the world have diets that are low in saturated fats.

I agree that all diets that 'stay away from food that is obviously trash' are on somewhat equal footing, but if you care about maximizing your longevity I would still avoid red meat and 'bad' fats making up a large component of your diet. At this stage of the game it's kind of a nutritional Pascal's wager. With the track record of nutrition science I'd say the consensus on saturated fat is firmly 'we're not sure'.
 
This page, and really the whole site, is a good source of information about the emerging picture of nutrition that goes against much of what was established in the last century. I would also recommend her article on cholesterol.

You're correct of course that the book is not open-and-shut by any means. But really, different diets that all occupy the same neighborhood of "stay away from food that is obviously trash" are probably on relatively equal footing when you consider the vast range of eating styles our species has dabbled in. We're not going to live forever anyway.

I would just hesitate to equivocate a debunked study with confirmation that there is definitely no causal link between saturated fat and heart disease. And I'd add that some of the healthiest people in the world have diets that are low in saturated fats.

I agree that all diets that 'stay away from food that is obviously trash' are on somewhat equal footing, but if you care about maximizing your longevity I would still avoid red meat and 'bad' fats making up a large component of your diet. At this stage of the game it's kind of a nutritional Pascal's wager. With the track record of nutrition science I'd say the consensus on saturated fat is firmly 'we're not sure'.

Well, you do you. I think we have enough data on ancestral and contemporary humans who have lived long lives with little to no incidence of heart disease or cancer, and there is no correlation to be found with red meat or saturated fat. You know my stance on this because we hashed it out in other threads, and I know you aren't convinced that humans have been living on red meat for longer than they have been living on plants. I think the burden is on the side that claims something is unhealthy and leads to bad outcomes to show, via experiment and not epidemiology, that they are actually the relevant variables accounting for the outcomes and not coincidental. Until that happens, we should look to our heritage, biochemistry, and our anatomy relative to other animals for guidance, and when we do that there's nothing to suggest any health risks inherent in red meat consumption... at least from where I'm sitting. If I'm wrong, then I'm wrong. Nobody lives forever anyway, and at least I look and feel good and have plenty of energy and clean teeth.
 
This page, and really the whole site, is a good source of information about the emerging picture of nutrition that goes against much of what was established in the last century. I would also recommend her article on cholesterol.

You're correct of course that the book is not open-and-shut by any means. But really, different diets that all occupy the same neighborhood of "stay away from food that is obviously trash" are probably on relatively equal footing when you consider the vast range of eating styles our species has dabbled in. We're not going to live forever anyway.

I would just hesitate to equivocate a debunked study with confirmation that there is definitely no causal link between saturated fat and heart disease. And I'd add that some of the healthiest people in the world have diets that are low in saturated fats.

I agree that all diets that 'stay away from food that is obviously trash' are on somewhat equal footing, but if you care about maximizing your longevity I would still avoid red meat and 'bad' fats making up a large component of your diet. At this stage of the game it's kind of a nutritional Pascal's wager. With the track record of nutrition science I'd say the consensus on saturated fat is firmly 'we're not sure'.

Well, you do you. I think we have enough data on ancestral and contemporary humans who have lived long lives with little to no incidence of heart disease or cancer, and there is no correlation to be found with red meat or saturated fat. You know my stance on this because we hashed it out in other threads, and I know you aren't convinced that humans have been living on red meat for longer than they have been living on plants. I think the burden is on the side that claims something is unhealthy and leads to bad outcomes to show, via experiment and not epidemiology, that they are actually the relevant variables accounting for the outcomes and not coincidental. Until that happens, we should look to our heritage, biochemistry, and our anatomy relative to other animals for guidance, and when we do that there's nothing to suggest any health risks inherent in red meat consumption... at least from where I'm sitting. If I'm wrong, then I'm wrong. Nobody lives forever anyway, and at least I look and feel good and have plenty of energy and clean teeth.

I don't really care who's right, but making a claim like saturated fats are risk free on a public forum shouldn't be taken lightly. I'd be willing to change my stance if I saw direct evidence via studies (which I haven't had time to look for yet), but so far you've only presented a blog. The link I posted above seems to have done a meta-analysis of the recent relevant studies, however, and generally agrees with your conclusion that saturated fats may be ok.. but also states that unsaturated fats may be better.

Like I said before, with the track record of nutrition science I'd still lean toward unsaturated fats, but if you're comfortable with your diet more power to you. I think it's just important to express the contrary perspective here.
 
Here's the meta-analysis that says unsaturated fat is associated with lower cardiovascular disease: http://journals.plos.org/plosmedicine/article?id=10.1371/journal.pmed.1000252

So from that I'd say that these two studies are pretty much in line with current popular wisdom. Saturated fat is important and a part of a normal diet, but if you eat more unsaturated fat you'll improve your health, where a diet with saturated fat acts as a kind of base-line.
 
Here's the meta-analysis that says unsaturated fat is associated with lower cardiovascular disease: http://journals.plos.org/plosmedicine/article?id=10.1371/journal.pmed.1000252

So from that I'd say that these two studies are pretty much in line with current popular wisdom. Saturated fat is important and a part of a normal diet, but if you eat more unsaturated fat you'll improve your health, where a diet with saturated fat acts as a kind of base-line.

Here are a new-ish study that shows a correlation between saturated fat intake and "good" cholesterol particles.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9583838

A review of the role of cholesterol in chronic disease: http://www.mdpi.com/2072-6643/10/5/604/htm

ETA: here's a big meta-study finding no correlation between saturated fat intake and cardiovascular disease.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20071648

This article is also a good meta-review on the whole fat/cholesterol landscape:
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0899900711003145
 
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I suspect you only read the first few paragraphs of this one.

A review of the role of cholesterol in chronic disease: http://www.mdpi.com/2072-6643/10/5/604/htm

It was very interesting, but was actually about Platelet Activating Factor and concluded that the mediterranean diet helps to avoid those chronic diseases that arise from inflammatory processes.

Adoption of dietary patterns such as the Med-diet provides bioactive food microconstituents with pleiotropic beneficial effects that are not limited to decreasing co-absorption of cholesterol and increasing plasma HDL levels and functionality, but mainly by providing better stability against oxidation and inflammation. Therefore, microconstituents such as polar lipids and vitamins present in foods of the Med-diet beneficially affect the levels, activities, and metabolism of key inflammatory mediators implicated in chronic diseases, including the PAF pathway, towards reducing inflammation and acquiring homeostasis, which can lead to reduced risk of inflammation-related chronic disorders.
 
I suspect you only read the first few paragraphs of this one.

A review of the role of cholesterol in chronic disease: http://www.mdpi.com/2072-6643/10/5/604/htm

It was very interesting, but was actually about Platelet Activating Factor and concluded that the mediterranean diet helps to avoid those chronic diseases that arise from inflammatory processes.

Adoption of dietary patterns such as the Med-diet provides bioactive food microconstituents with pleiotropic beneficial effects that are not limited to decreasing co-absorption of cholesterol and increasing plasma HDL levels and functionality, but mainly by providing better stability against oxidation and inflammation. Therefore, microconstituents such as polar lipids and vitamins present in foods of the Med-diet beneficially affect the levels, activities, and metabolism of key inflammatory mediators implicated in chronic diseases, including the PAF pathway, towards reducing inflammation and acquiring homeostasis, which can lead to reduced risk of inflammation-related chronic disorders.

Not sure what you're getting at. The paper, as with the others, provides evidence that cholesterol is less implicated in chronic disease than commonly thought, which is what I have been saying.
 
Anyway, here is some more food for thought. Ahem... I'll see myself out.

Meta-analyses on the purported link between fat consumption and heart disease-related deaths:

https://openheart.bmj.com/content/2/1/e000196?sid=7f05f28c-917b-462e-ab41-c1741ddb099c
https://www.bmj.com/content/353/bmj.i1246

And in pre-diabetic individuals:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24666665

Finally, two of my favorite papers, this one from 1930 documenting the health of two men who lived only on meat with the Eskimos:
http://www.jbc.org/content/87/3/651.full.pdf

And this one that accidentally shows that the complete removal of all plant matter from one's diet was associated with many positive benefits:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12064344

Epidemiological studies suggest that foods rich in flavonoids might reduce the risk of cardiovascular disease and cancer. The objective of the present study was to investigate the effect of green tea extract (GTE) used as a food antioxidant on markers of oxidative status after dietary depletion of flavonoids and catechins. The study was designed as a 2 x 3 weeks blinded human cross-over intervention study (eight smokers, eight non-smokers) with GTE corresponding to a daily intake of 18.6 mg catechins/d. The GTE was incorporated into meat patties and consumed with a strictly controlled diet otherwise low in flavonoids. GTE intervention increased plasma antioxidant capacity from 1.35 to 1.56 (P<0.02) in postprandially collected plasma, most prominently in smokers. The intervention did not significantly affect markers in fasting blood samples, including plasma or haemoglobin protein oxidation, plasma oxidation lagtime, or activities of the erythrocyte superoxide dismutase, glutathione peroxidase, glutathione reductase and catalase. Neither were fasting plasma triacylglycerol, cholesterol, alpha-tocopherol, retinol, beta-carotene, or ascorbic acid affected by intervention. Urinary 8-oxo-deoxyguanosine excretion was also unaffected. Catechins from the extract were excreted into urine with a half-life of less than 2 h in accordance with the short-term effects on plasma antioxidant capacity. Since no long-term effects of GTE were observed, the study essentially served as a fruit and vegetables depletion study. The overall effect of the 10-week period without dietary fruits and vegetables was a decrease in oxidative damage to DNA, blood proteins, and plasma lipids, concomitantly with marked changes in antioxidative defence.
 
It's always been my understanding of the meat vs plant conversation that whole plant diets are associated with reduced cancer when compared to meats. Yes, processed refined carbs are bad news and meat is a much better choice for overall health.
 
It's always been my understanding of the meat vs plant conversation that whole plant diets are associated with reduced cancer when compared to meats. Yes, processed refined carbs are bad news and meat is a much better choice for overall health.

I'd be curious about the impact on health of simple sugars from sources like fruit. I've been told to keep the vegetable/fruit ratio leaning toward veggies, but are carbs a problem because their over-consumption often leads to obesity, or are they a problem in of themselves?

In other words are we avoiding carbs to avoid the dangers weight gain, or just avoiding carbs?
 
It's always been my understanding of the meat vs plant conversation that whole plant diets are associated with reduced cancer when compared to meats. Yes, processed refined carbs are bad news and meat is a much better choice for overall health.

I'd be curious about the impact on health of simple sugars from sources like fruit. I've been told to keep the vegetable/fruit ratio leaning toward veggies, but are carbs a problem because their over-consumption often leads to obesity, or are they a problem in of themselves?

In other words are we avoiding carbs to avoid the dangers weight gain, or just avoiding carbs?

Good question, because a carb is not a carb is not a carb. A bowl of ice cream or a giant sugary drink is not a plant. Neither is white bread that's got 50 ingredients. So there are differences.

Lots of folks just think "Carbohydrate is bad" and take it no further. I really don't know what's in the mind of someone who drinks a sugar free diet soda. I don't know what they are trying to do.
 
Blah blah blah blah blah. The 'best' diet is one of large variety and reasonable portions. Most of our bodies mechanisms are largely influenced by heredity and environment more than 'diet', including our weight. People need to relax and simply eat what they enjoy....stress is certainly WAY WORSE for your heart so here's one area where people should relax.
 
Blah blah blah blah blah. The 'best' diet is one of large variety and reasonable portions. Most of our bodies mechanisms are largely influenced by heredity and environment more than 'diet', including our weight. People need to relax and simply eat what they enjoy....stress is certainly WAY WORSE for your heart so here's one area where people should relax.

Well this thread is about nutrition.

I agree that as long as you have a reasonable, well proportioned diet you're fine for the most part, but speaking personally I do have an interest in continually improving my diet. A diet that's sensible is fine, but one that is 5% better is.. well, 5% better. I'm interested in living the longest, healthiest life I possibly can, and if understanding more about nutrition gets me there, I'm all for it.

I do agree, though, that many people take it too far and too seriously. For me, I just want to know the science of what I put in my body. Not really a stressor just kind of.. if the information is there, why not seek it out kind of thing.
 
It's always been my understanding of the meat vs plant conversation that whole plant diets are associated with reduced cancer when compared to meats. Yes, processed refined carbs are bad news and meat is a much better choice for overall health.

I'd be curious about the impact on health of simple sugars from sources like fruit. I've been told to keep the vegetable/fruit ratio leaning toward veggies, but are carbs a problem because their over-consumption often leads to obesity, or are they a problem in of themselves?

In other words are we avoiding carbs to avoid the dangers weight gain, or just avoiding carbs?

Good question, because a carb is not a carb is not a carb. A bowl of ice cream or a giant sugary drink is not a plant. Neither is white bread that's got 50 ingredients. So there are differences.

Lots of folks just think "Carbohydrate is bad" and take it no further. I really don't know what's in the mind of someone who drinks a sugar free diet soda. I don't know what they are trying to do.

Just clicked around and read this article.

Sounds like the gist is that it's hard to get too much sugar from fruit, as opposed to candies and sugary drinks which have a much higher concentration. And fruit obviously comes with real benefits like fiber and vitamins. So I'd assume the problem with refined carbs is the associated weight gain, and not carbs, strictly speaking.

In other words fruit is mostly ok but you'd probably still want to avoid eating too much of it.
 
It's always been my understanding of the meat vs plant conversation that whole plant diets are associated with reduced cancer when compared to meats. Yes, processed refined carbs are bad news and meat is a much better choice for overall health.

I'd be curious about the impact on health of simple sugars from sources like fruit. I've been told to keep the vegetable/fruit ratio leaning toward veggies, but are carbs a problem because their over-consumption often leads to obesity, or are they a problem in of themselves?

In other words are we avoiding carbs to avoid the dangers weight gain, or just avoiding carbs?

Good question, because a carb is not a carb is not a carb. A bowl of ice cream or a giant sugary drink is not a plant. Neither is white bread that's got 50 ingredients. So there are differences.

Lots of folks just think "Carbohydrate is bad" and take it no further. I really don't know what's in the mind of someone who drinks a sugar free diet soda. I don't know what they are trying to do.

Carbohydrates are generally bad, and are implicated more and more in all of the diseases and conditions of the Western way of eating. That something bad can be mitigated or made partly better does not change the fact that it's mostly bad. This gets to your "a carb is not a carb" comment. What differentiates different sources of carbohydrates, and makes some "healthier" than others, is just how easy it is for your body to absorb the actual carbohydrates. The easier it is, the less healthy the food. The only reason refined carbohydrates are called junk carbs and whole wheat is called healthy carbs is because of all the stuff in whole wheat that interferes with your body's absorption of its carbohydrate content. Fiber, on its own, is not healthy; it's just good to have around as a barrier between the carbs and your bloodstream. Why bother with the carbs in the first place?

Fruits and vegetables are different evolutionary strategies in practice. Fruits want to be plucked and eaten so their seeds can be spread around, which is why they taste so good and provide at least some vitamins (though no required nutrients that we can't get from meat). Vegetables don't get much out of being eaten, and since they can't run or fly away from predators, evolved a huge array of anti-nutrient toxins that render them basically inedible to the majority of animals. Most wild vegetables, to this day, are inedible to humans unless cooked, and much of the nutrients they contain is not absorbed at all because of the indigestible components. We have engineered certain species to be easier on our systems, but all this shows is that we never needed them to begin with, as these are without exception millennia younger than our digestive systems.

There is no actual need for any carbs at all in the human diet, which makes sense as we evolved during times when they would have been so scarce compared to meat that we couldn't justify spending the energy to find them. Our ancestors thrived in deserts, ice ages, and plains before learning about agriculture, and with occasional opportunistic exceptions favored meat for most or all of their nutritional needs. I'm not saying we should all eat like that today just because they did it back then, I'm just saying this is prima facie evidence that our bodies are well-adapted to life without any carbs at all. How numerous, energy-rich, and palatable do you imagine the local flora were before we learned how to breed plants that actually taste good and grow all year-round? Sure, our ancestors ate plants, but we're not talking kale salads with sweet corn, we're talking bland tubers from the bottom of a lake that they relied upon as an absolute last resort. And if they got lucky, some berries that weren't poisonous.

Meat, on the other hand, has been the same nutrient-dense, delicious, easily digestible energy source that it was a million years ago. It helped us grow big brains compared to the rest of our bodies, which in turn helped us devise better hunting strategies, and that feedback loop is really what made humans human.

There is a growing community of people who, like me, eat nothing except for meat every day of their lives. Some have been at it for years, some for decades, and with almost no exceptions they report excellent health, great cholesterol numbers, more energy, and a complete lack of obesity. Gut disorders vanish (in my case this has been a miracle), inflammation doesn't happen anymore except when it's needed, bloating is a thing of the past, and every meal is just as satisfying as the last.

I'll again add the parting disclaimer that my purpose in mentioning all this is NOT to say that everybody should adopt this diet. I don't care what you eat if you are happy and healthy, and there is more than one way to achieve that balance. Rather, I am only trying to refute the claim made by others that MY diet cannot be healthy, because it is lacking in certain components necessary for my health and prosperity, namely plant matter. The assumption is that the burden of proof should be on me to show why we DON'T need to eat plants, when scientifically, there is no compelling evidence to justify that default position. Based on our evolutionary past and an emerging body of research, the onus is the other way around. If you want me to believe that I need carbohydrates for any reason, or that I should be consuming plants regularly, show me what I am missing and why I need it, and explain how so many people (both 100,000 years ago and today) are managing just fine if not better-than-average without them.
 
Good question, because a carb is not a carb is not a carb. A bowl of ice cream or a giant sugary drink is not a plant. Neither is white bread that's got 50 ingredients. So there are differences.

Lots of folks just think "Carbohydrate is bad" and take it no further. I really don't know what's in the mind of someone who drinks a sugar free diet soda. I don't know what they are trying to do.

Carbohydrates are generally bad, and are implicated more and more in all of the diseases and conditions of the Western way of eating. That something bad can be mitigated or made partly better does not change the fact that it's mostly bad. This gets to your "a carb is not a carb" comment. What differentiates different sources of carbohydrates, and makes some "healthier" than others, is just how easy it is for your body to absorb the actual carbohydrates. The easier it is, the less healthy the food. The only reason refined carbohydrates are called junk carbs and whole wheat is called healthy carbs is because of all the stuff in whole wheat that interferes with your body's absorption of its carbohydrate content. Fiber, on its own, is not healthy; it's just good to have around as a barrier between the carbs and your bloodstream. Why bother with the carbs in the first place?

Fruits and vegetables are different evolutionary strategies in practice. Fruits want to be plucked and eaten so their seeds can be spread around, which is why they taste so good and provide at least some vitamins (though no required nutrients that we can't get from meat). Vegetables don't get much out of being eaten, and since they can't run or fly away from predators, evolved a huge array of anti-nutrient toxins that render them basically inedible to the majority of animals. Most wild vegetables, to this day, are inedible to humans unless cooked, and much of the nutrients they contain is not absorbed at all because of the indigestible components. We have engineered certain species to be easier on our systems, but all this shows is that we never needed them to begin with, as these are without exception millennia younger than our digestive systems.

There is no actual need for any carbs at all in the human diet, which makes sense as we evolved during times when they would have been so scarce compared to meat that we couldn't justify spending the energy to find them. Our ancestors thrived in deserts, ice ages, and plains before learning about agriculture, and with occasional opportunistic exceptions favored meat for most or all of their nutritional needs. I'm not saying we should all eat like that today just because they did it back then, I'm just saying this is prima facie evidence that our bodies are well-adapted to life without any carbs at all. How numerous, energy-rich, and palatable do you imagine the local flora were before we learned how to breed plants that actually taste good and grow all year-round? Sure, our ancestors ate plants, but we're not talking kale salads with sweet corn, we're talking bland tubers from the bottom of a lake that they relied upon as an absolute last resort. And if they got lucky, some berries that weren't poisonous.

Meat, on the other hand, has been the same nutrient-dense, delicious, easily digestible energy source that it was a million years ago. It helped us grow big brains compared to the rest of our bodies, which in turn helped us devise better hunting strategies, and that feedback loop is really what made humans human.

There is a growing community of people who, like me, eat nothing except for meat every day of their lives. Some have been at it for years, some for decades, and with almost no exceptions they report excellent health, great cholesterol numbers, more energy, and a complete lack of obesity. Gut disorders vanish (in my case this has been a miracle), inflammation doesn't happen anymore except when it's needed, bloating is a thing of the past, and every meal is just as satisfying as the last.

I'll again add the parting disclaimer that my purpose in mentioning all this is NOT to say that everybody should adopt this diet. I don't care what you eat if you are happy and healthy, and there is more than one way to achieve that balance. Rather, I am only trying to refute the claim made by others that MY diet cannot be healthy, because it is lacking in certain components necessary for my health and prosperity, namely plant matter. The assumption is that the burden of proof should be on me to show why we DON'T need to eat plants, when scientifically, there is no compelling evidence to justify that default position. Based on our evolutionary past and an emerging body of research, the onus is the other way around. If you want me to believe that I need carbohydrates for any reason, or that I should be consuming plants regularly, show me what I am missing and why I need it, and explain how so many people (both 100,000 years ago and today) are managing just fine if not better-than-average without them.

I'm all for providing evidence to back up my claims. I'm just not going to listen to the claims of anyone else if they aren't themselves backed up. Like I said before I couldn't care less what my end position on any given nutrient is, I just want that end position to be accurate. If you don't want to provide the science behind your diet, fair enough, in turn I'm just going to take what you say with a grain of salt and do my own research instead.

I don't think it really makes sense in a thread like this to play 'who's right' games, but if you're going to make a claim about something then verify it with something substantive. If you can't verify your claim with something substantive, then why do you hold it?
 
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