Obey me

[Underseer]

Obey me and your life will get better.

Obey me and you will become more moral.

Convince other people to obey me and society will become more moral.

Obey me and your children will be cured of cancer.

Obey me or a magic being will torture you after you die.

Obey me and you'll be able to meet grandma again after you die.

Obey me or the hurricane will get you.

Obey me or society will become more violent.

Obey me.

Obey me.

Obey me. I mean god. Obey god. Yes, that's what I meant.

 

[Underseer]

Sorry for going all "performance art" on you, but this really frustrates me sometimes. Any time I hear the things religious leaders say to their followers, the above mantra (or something similar to it) is what goes through my head. It's what I hear being chanted in hushed tones under their words.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...iolence-can-be-traced-to-christians-failures/

This one is especially stupid. The current wave of violence can be attributed to not enough Christianity? What?

No.

Christians are statistically more likely to commit violent crime. Christians are statistically more likely to be racist.

Now I can't rightly say that Christianity causes those things (correlation does not equal causation and all that), but at the very minimum we can say that Christianity fails to fix those specific things, thus making society more Christian is unlikely to ever fix what this religious leader claims it will fix. Of course, that doesn't matter. What matters is that the flock yet again hears an argument for obeying the religious leader. Whether or not obeying the religious leader actually makes anything better is completely irrelevant, isn't it?

Obey me.

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

While I was out clearing trail - and my head - today I thought of something new. I call it Magic Matter. And when you get right down to it, Christians and anyone religious in the classical sense believes in magic matter, a substance that is what gods and souls and devils and angels and all other supernatural horseshit is composed of. We give it a fancy name, dualism, but in reality these people simply believe in magic matter, and they know it's there.

Quite frankly, anyone that gullible/stupid is likely to obey a lot.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

You hear that? I hear "Give me more money."

 

[DBT]

I'm reaching for my wallet as we speak....unfortunately it is empty. Sorry, I tried.

 

[Underseer]

While I was out clearing trail - and my head - today I thought of something new. I call it Magic Matter. And when you get right down to it, Christians and anyone religious in the classical sense believes in magic matter, a substance that is what gods and souls and devils and angels and all other supernatural horseshit is composed of. We give it a fancy name, dualism, but in reality these people simply believe in magic matter, and they know it's there.

Quite frankly, anyone that gullible/stupid is likely to obey a lot.

Substance dualism is the more formal name (as you already know). I prefer using the term "non-stuff stuff" with people who don't know what dualism is, just for the sake of clarity. "Magic matter" is descriptive, but at least with my phrasing to can switch between talking about "stuff" versus "non-stuff stuff" to explain the differences between monism and dualism. If you were to alternate between talking about "stuff" versus "magic matter," I don't think the debate is as clear.

But yes, it's all magic. They use terms like "miracles" to avoid admitting it, but as Aron Ra points out, if you bother to look up the definition of "miracle" and the definition of "magic," they're pretty much the same thing. "Miracle" is just a euphemism that sounds less crazy.

- - - Updated - - -

You hear that? I hear "Give me more money."

Well, isn't that part of the point of getting people to obey?

The other part is political influence, of course.

 

[Underseer]

"God sent the hurricane because we have failed to stop the homosexual 'agenda.'" = obey me or the hurricane will get you

"God sent the earthquake because some women are not wearing burqas" = obey me or the earthquake will get you

"Your aunt wasn't saved by chemotherapy, she was saved by our prayers! It's a miracle!" = obey me or cancer will get you

"All these shootings were caused by taking god out of the schools" = get other people to obey me or else society will become more immoral

It's hidden in practically everything religious leaders say. It's a wonder theists can't see it.

 

[Random Person]

It seems to me that the government requires more obedience. You don't give them money, they take it. If you violate their rules you will be imprisoned. At birth you are sentenced to 12 years of indoctrination.

 

[another1]

Yeah American school for starts, random person. They're creepy and icky. Too mechanized and bell oriented. The pledge of allegiance is the only pure thing that happens in the school day. They changed it to one nation under all, at my school, because of some fuss about the wording. It still meant a lot, however it was spelled. The rest is straight up Nazi bullshit pardon my French. Home schooling is really important and I'm glad we're permitted to do it.

 

[braces_for_impact]

Yeah American school for starts, random person. They're creepy and icky. Too mechanized and bell oriented. The pledge of allegiance is the only pure thing that happens in the school day. They changed it to one nation under all, at my school, because of some fuss about the wording. It still meant a lot, however it was spelled. The rest is straight up Nazi bullshit pardon my French. Home schooling is really important and I'm glad we're permitted to do it.

What?

 

[Underseer]

It seems to me that the government requires more obedience. You don't give them money, they take it. If you violate their rules you will be imprisoned. At birth you are sentenced to 12 years of indoctrination.

What does the government have to do with my criticism of the use of religion as a political control mechanism?

 

[ronburgundy]

Now I can't rightly say that Christianity causes those things (correlation does not equal causation and all that).

It's true that correlation does not always mean causation, but it often does. When the correlation is highly reliable across contexts and samples and emerges at many levels of analysis (comparing individual persons, comparing states, comparing countries, comparing a single region to itself at different time points), then the correlation is very likely a meaningful and causal one. If the correlation is non-causal and only indirect it will likely only emerge in limited circumstances, because the relationship between the real causal factor and the two correlated variables will rarely be the same across levels of analysis.

So, the reliable relationship combined with a clear and obvious causal mechansim (e.g., the fact that there is no more intolerant, authoritarian, and violent "hero" in all of literature than the God worshiped by Abrahamic religions), strongly support a causal role of such religions in exacerbating bigotry, intolerance, authoritarianism, and violence.

 

[bilby]

Yeah American school for starts, random person. They're creepy and icky. Too mechanized and bell oriented. The pledge of allegiance is the only pure thing that happens in the school day. They changed it to one nation under all, at my school, because of some fuss about the wording. It still meant a lot, however it was spelled. The rest is straight up Nazi bullshit pardon my French. Home schooling is really important and I'm glad we're permitted to do it.

The only nations that require children to recite a pledge of allegiance are totalitarian police state shit-holes.

ANY form of recitation imposed on children is despicable, and the complete antithesis to freedom.

Allowing parents to school their children is fucking retarded. You don't let parents perform appendectomies on their children, mainly because most parents are not qualified surgeons. Even if a parent is a qualified surgeon, he is not permitted to operate on his own child, because he cannot possibly retain the necessary professional detachment in such a situation. Teaching is a skill that needs to be learned, while being a parent is so easy that it frequently occurs by accident. Parents - even the tiny minority who are also qualified teachers - should NOT be allowed to be the sole teachers of their own children.

 

[another1]

The problem with public school is the bell. They run anxiously to that bell and it sticks with them their whole lives, bilby. Some schools in this world play a happy song when it is time to sit down. That is creepy beyond belief. Why force them to memorize the way people have already thought, and why make them dance to bells while they do it? Pretty pointless and sadistic man. You don't respect the Pledge? Of Allegiance? Jesus Christ man.

 

[bilby]

The problem with public school is the bell. They run anxiously to that bell and it sticks with them their whole lives, bilby. Some schools in this world play a happy song when it is time to sit down. That is creepy beyond belief. Why force them to memorize the way people have already thought, and why make them dance to bells while they do it? Pretty pointless and sadistic man. You don't respect the Pledge? Of Allegiance? Jesus Christ man.

Seriously? You think that using a bell to mark the time is more of a problem than having children taught by amateurs with no educational training, or than having children made to chant a pledge of allegiance? That's some seriously shallow thinking there. It might be nice if we lived in a world where accurate timekeeping wasn't an important skill; but we don't, so it is reasonable to teach children that skill. Home schooling, like home surgery, is OK as a last resort if you are stuck out in the middle of nowhere without access to a skilled practitioner, but it's not something untrained people should be doing willy-nilly.

We do not live in a world where the USA is one nation, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all; so it is not reasonable to brainwash children into believing that it is. The whole 'All lives matter' stupidity can be traced back to this - most white middle-class Americans grew up with the absolute and certain belief that all Americans have equal liberty and equal justice. That is a lie; And when they need to step up and confront that lie in order to improve the lot of their downtrodden compatriots, they simply can't do it. The cognitive dissonance kicks in, and they don't truly believe that blacks or the poor are actually being downtrodden at all - they have liberty and justice, so any remaining problems must be their own fault, right?

I don't respect any kind of pledge, affirmation or oath taken by children, the mentally impaired, or anyone else with diminished responsibility. The US pledge of allegiance is particularly problematic, and the fact that you seem surprised that I don't respect it is, if you think about that for a minute, a pretty solid bit of evidence for why - You have been so brainwashed by it that you can't imagine someone disrespecting it as an institution. Well, I have good news and bad news for you - the good news is that I do not (merely) disrespect the Pledge of Allegiance. The bad news is that I actively despise it, and all similar nonsense drummed into children's heads. Children need to be taught how to think, not what to think.

Not having attended school in the USA, I was never brainwashed to consider your pledge to be worthy of respect; and as an adult I am therefore capable of seeing it for what it is. Watching a class full of kids recite the US Pledge of Allegiance inspires the same emotions in me as watching footage of the Nuremberg Rally, and for much the same reason. It is creepy as fuck.

The only nations that require children to recite a pledge of allegiance are totalitarian police state shit-holes. If I lived in the USA, I would want my nation not to emulate other totalitarian police state shit-holes. But I don't live in the USA, so my action on this is merely to offer friendly advice to those who suffer under that regime.

I do not respect the Pledge. Of Allegiance. Nor do I respect Jesus Christ. I am rapidly losing my respect for man, too.

 

[Random Person]

It seems to me that the government requires more obedience. You don't give them money, they take it. If you violate their rules you will be imprisoned. At birth you are sentenced to 12 years of indoctrination.

What does the government have to do with my criticism of the use of religion as a political control mechanism?

I was noting the "Obey me" theme in your post and saw an obvious parallel to the more pernicious control the government places on us.

 

[bilby]

What does the government have to do with my criticism of the use of religion as a political control mechanism?

I was noting the "Obey me" theme in your post and saw an obvious parallel to the more pernicious control the government places on us.

The government expects you to pay for your share of joint expenditure, and not to fuck up your fellow citizens.

That's hardly onerous.

 

[Tigers!]

.

ANY form of recitation imposed on children is despicable, and the complete antithesis to freedom.

I've often thought that way about nursery rhymes.

So why do you have children follow rugby?

 

[another1]

bilby I went to public school in West Virginia. this is a public school thing you wouldn't understand, but you're a good person for trying.
We should be saying the pledge in our front yards every morning. That is just my opinion. Neighborhoods with flagpoles have 27% less crime btw. Random, unreal statistic that is probably right. I understand why they all want to abandon a flag, but abandoning a child with strangers in a filthy building guarded by nothing more than a "cop" demoted to school patrol because he is a drunk... unacceptable. Public schools are dangerous for kids physically. Too many psycho pervs and whatnot. The bell I was talking about is more like... the whole idea. The structure in it. You can't learn that way. They only people who learn and succeed that way are robots. They learn like robots and they behave like robots when they apply what they learned in "work" as grownups. That is just my opinion. It may be obnoxiously ignorant to some, but it isn't intended to be rude to anyone.

 

[ronburgundy]

I was noting the "Obey me" theme in your post and saw an obvious parallel to the more pernicious control the government places on us.

The government expects you to pay for your share of joint expenditure, and not to fuck up your fellow citizens.

That's hardly onerous.

And how onerous a government is depends upon how much it run by or is similar to a religion. Theocracies are totalitarian because monotheistic religions are the most authoritarian worldview and power structure you can have. Governments that want to supplant monotheistic religions and mimic their control are totalitarian and would typically seek to eliminate religions they view as competition for authority (e.g., communist states).

This is the central point to my argument I have made elsewhere that Abrahamic religion is at its very core the anti-thesis of the Enlightenment values that undermine liberal democracy. In fact, the whole point of the Enlightenment was to remove the shackles of oppression (not just government but ideological, intellectual, and moral) that had come to dominate Europe under Christianity. So long as people maintain a near certain belief in and worship of the authoritarian God of Abraham and consider his intolerant violent deeds and commands of the Bible to be anything but grossly immoral, they will not be able to embrace those post-Enlightenment values. That is why the danger of religion is not limited to the most extreme fundamentalism or to those who endorse the use terrorist methods (in the case of Islam), which are more about desperate efforts to fight a much stronger military power than about religion itself (although religious ideas of evil and inherent sin enable the targeting killing of civilians).