Ohio - Right Wing Power Grab Goes Down To Defeat

[ideologyhunter]

Vult esse difficile. -Prophet Selohssa

 

[Patooka]

Was abortion mentioned in the referendum?

That's pretty disingenuous. No abortion wasn't explicitly said and yet it was one of the primary causes of the referendum. I'm certain the word genocide (of Völkermord if you prefer), was never mentioned in the Final Solution to the Jewish Question either.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

So, Ohio conservatives won this.

People who were fine with keeping things as they are, on this subject, voted to keep things the same.
That's what the term "conservative" means.

Apparently, it was Republican progressives who lost.
Tom

I think you mean regressives because there is nothing progressive about going backwards.

You beat me to that one. Can we call them regressive extremists?

The voters voted for the status quo.
The conservatives won.
I don't see how to make that any simpler.
Tom

Wow. You are right. You couldn't have made your plain misunderstanding of this vote any simpler. This off season election was held by the GOP to prevent the November abortion rights referendum harder to pass. They don't want the people to choose. Which I suppose is poetic in a sense.

 

[TV and credit cards]

So, Ohio conservatives won this.

People who were fine with keeping things as they are, on this subject, voted to keep things the same.
That's what the term "conservative" means.

Apparently, it was Republican progressives who lost.
Tom

I think you mean regressives because there is nothing progressive about going backwards.

You beat me to that one. Can we call them regressive extremists?

The voters voted for the status quo.
The conservatives won.
I don't see how to make that any simpler.
Tom

Wow. You are right. You couldn't have made your plain misunderstanding of this vote any simpler. This off season election was held by the GOP to prevent the November abortion rights referendum harder to pass. They don't want the people to choose. Which I suppose is poetic in a sense.

Yeah, that's so bad I thought I missed the sarcasm.
The simple condensed version is in post six by James Brown.

 

[hurtinbuckaroo]

So, Ohio conservatives won this.

People who were fine with keeping things as they are, on this subject, voted to keep things the same.
That's what the term "conservative" means.

Apparently, it was Republican progressives who lost.
Tom

I think you mean regressives because there is nothing progressive about going backwards.

You beat me to that one. Can we call them regressive extremists?

The voters voted for the status quo.
The conservatives won.
I don't see how to make that any simpler.
Tom

Voting against making it harder to change the status quo is not a conservative victory.

 

[TomC]

Voting against making it harder to change the status quo is not a conservative victory.

That's not what I'm talking about.
Voting against changing the status quo is conservative. That's what Ohio voters did. They voted to keep the current system in place.

Regardless of why Ohio politicians wanted to institute the change, that's what they wanted. Change. Progress, by their(ever so partisan) lights. It didn't happen.

Honestly, what I was talking about was largely the dilution of the word "conservative" until it's near meaningless.

The vast majority of TeaParty policies aren't conservative, despite their use of the term to rile up the base.
Tom

 

[Shadowy Man]

Like how progressive judges overturned Roe v Wade, right?

 

[TomC]

Like how progressive judges overturned Roe v Wade, right?

No.
That was regressive. Return to the ugliness of making abortion a state's rights political football, like it was before 1973.

But, in another important sense it was progressive. Time doesn't go backwards. The referendum was about the future. It was a progressive proposal, even if the progress was towards a more Republican future, rather than a more humane and ethical future.
Tom

 

[laughing dog]

Voting against making it harder to change the status quo is not a conservative victory.

That's not what I'm talking about.
Voting against changing the status quo is conservative. That's what Ohio voters did. They voted to keep the current system in place.

Regardless of why Ohio politicians wanted to institute the change, that's what they wanted. Change. Progress, by their(ever so partisan) lights. It didn't happen.

Honestly, what I was talking about was largely the dilution of the word "conservative" until it's near meaningless.

So people who vote for Biden in the next POTUS election are being conservative? Your definition is not very useful.

 

[TomC]

So people who vote for Biden in the next POTUS election are being conservative? Your definition is not very useful.

The word has been diluted almost into meaninglessness.
I voted for Clinton in 2016 because she was the conservative candidate. I voted for Biden in 2020, because he was the conservative candidate.

Both are neolib conservative, which I'm not terribly fond of. But neither were the insane levels of partisan politics Trump is. So that's what I did.

By then, the Republican Party had abandoned much pretense of integrity or order, they'd become all about wealth and power by any means necessary. It still feels weird to me, being a straight ticket Democrats voter.

But yeah. Clinton and Biden had more integrity than Trump. They didn't propose sweeping progressive policies, like ending "This Nation of Immigrants". That was Trump. Clinton and Biden were the conservative choices available at the time.
Tom

 

[TV and credit cards]

After the failure of this issue to create a more unjust and authoritarian Ohio, the fight is on. While Gov. DeWine looks for compromise, those against the "Ohio Right to Make Reproductive Decisions Including Abortion Initiative" up in November try to convince others this amendment will turn the sons and daughters of Ohio into daughters and sons.

Ohio Right to Make Reproductive Decisions Including Abortion Initiative (2023)

Ballotpedia: The Encyclopedia of American Politics

ballotpedia.org

 

[Shadowy Man]

Like how progressive judges overturned Roe v Wade, right?

No.
That was regressive. Return to the ugliness of making abortion a state's rights political football, like it was before 1973.

But, in another important sense it was progressive. Time doesn't go backwards. The referendum was about the future. It was a progressive proposal, even if the progress was towards a more Republican future, rather than a more humane and ethical future.
Tom

Right, so the judges that voted to keep Roe v. Wade are the conservative ones. At least that is how it appears you are using the word "conservative" even though it clearly means something else to most people.

 

[TomC]

Right, so the judges that voted to keep Roe v. Wade are the conservative ones.

Correct.
They voted to conserve the current, decades old, status quo.
That's what conservatives do.

At least that is how it appears you are using the word "conservative" even though it clearly means something else to most people.

I find it unfortunate that such words have been misused to the point of meaningless.

One big issue I have with modern Republican progressives is ending our "Nation of Immigrants". It's a proud tradition of my culture, dating back before the existence of the USA. I really believe in that plaque on the Statue of Liberty!

TeaParty progressives who want to melt down the Statue of Liberty to put up a Wall aren't anything like conservative. I don't care what they call themselves. I want to maintain our proud tradition and they don't. I'm the conservative, Trump and his supporters are not.
Tom

 

[Elixir]

“Conservatism is a cultural, social, and political philosophy that seeks to promote and to preserve traditional institutions, practices, and values.”

So, when slavery was a traditional institution and practice, conservatives fought to preserve it. Now that it has been so many years since the institution of slavery was abolished, conservatives are still trying to preserve it. They want to make it an equal opportunity condition, including poor shot and brown people, rather than strictly racist institution.
So props for that!

“The central tenets of conservatism may vary in relation to the culture and civilization in which it appears.”

Kinda like a macro version of libertarianism, where every free individual enjoys their own culture and civilization.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

The Right's attempt to make it harder to pass voter initiatives has gone down to defeat.

"Right wing power grab"? Really?
I think it's bonkers that a state's constitution can be changed with a simple majority vote in a referendum. Constitutions should be more stable and harder to change than that.

Personally, I like what we have here: 50% + 1, but in two successive elections.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

I think you mean regressives because there is nothing progressive about going backwards.

You don't seem to know what the words mean, but you've a great deal of confidence in your opinions.

OK

Tom

The irony of your response is truly amazing, The Republicans were trying to move Ohio back (regress) to the time when abortion was illegal.

Was abortion mentioned in the referendum?
Tom

No. It was about avoiding initiatives that might undo their abortion bans.

 

[hurtinbuckaroo]

Voting against making it harder to change the status quo is not a conservative victory.

That's not what I'm talking about.
Voting against changing the status quo is conservative. That's what Ohio voters did. They voted to keep the current system in place.

Regardless of why Ohio politicians wanted to institute the change, that's what they wanted. Change. Progress, by their(ever so partisan) lights. It didn't happen.

Honestly, what I was talking about was largely the dilution of the word "conservative" until it's near meaningless.

The vast majority of TeaParty policies aren't conservative, despite their use of the term to rile up the base.
Tom

They voted to keep the current system that makes it easier to change the things they want to change. But you know that.

 

[TomC]

They voted to keep the current system

That's conservative.
Keep the current system, don't change it.

Political ideologues often change that simple meaning for their own purposes. They've pretty well trashed any useful, non-ideological, meaning for the words.

From the Wokesters to the TeaPartiers, everyone seems to do it.
Tom

 

[laughing dog]

So people who vote for Biden in the next POTUS election are being conservative? Your definition is not very useful.

The word has been diluted almost into meaninglessness.

[/QUOTE]
Well, your definition is just another example of an operational meaningless one. Of course, you are welcome to use your own idiosyncratic version of words, but that tends to lead to rather poor communication and to confusion.

 

[TomC]

, your definition is just another example of an operational meaningless one.

OK
Mine is "keeping the status quo".
What is yours?
Tom