Oklahoma fraternity being persecuted by PC Police

[Axulus]

The ACLU seems to agree with untermensche here, and thinks that the University may not in fact have the right to expel these students. I'm a bit in the middle on this matter - if it were a private college, I would say they have the right. Being a publicly funded university, I'm not so sure:

As a state-run institution of higher education, the University of Oklahoma must also respect First Amendment principles that are central to the mission of every university. Any sanction imposed on students for their speech must therefore be consistent with the First Amendment and not merely a punishment for vile and reprehensible speech; courts have consistently and rightly ruled as such. Absent information that is not at our disposal, it is difficult to imagine a situation in which a court would side with the university on this matter. We are closely monitoring the situation and will appropriately respond to new details as they emerge. In the meantime, we stand in solid support of the brave and thoughtful students whose public dialogue on race and the rights of all minority students in response to the incident have embodied the spirit of the First Amendment.

http://acluok.org/2015/03/aclu-of-o...mas-announcement-of-vp-of-diversity-position/

I'm thinking that this may have been a better alternative:

Don’t Expel Members of Sigma Alpha Epsilon for Racism

Educate them. Show them what their words mean.

...

As far as the University of Oklahoma is concerned, I should say I’m not thrilled with the punishment. Disbanding the fraternity might be justified, but expelling students for hate speech is an extreme response that runs afoul of free-speech norms, if not the First Amendment.

Education would be better. The University of Oklahoma is two hours away from Tulsa, which in 1921 was the site of one of the worst anti-black race riots in American history. More than a thousand whites stormed the black district of Tulsa and razed it to the ground, killing hundreds and leaving thousands homeless and destitute. Black Tulsa never recovered, but memories of the attack live on among descendants of the victims.

Don’t expel the boys. Bring them to Tulsa. Have them see the memorials and talk to the children of survivors. Give them a chance to see what their words actually mean, and whether they want to be the kinds of people who sing about lynching for fun.

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_...tudents_and_disbands_sigma_alpha_epsilon.html

 

[Underseer]

The ACLU seems to agree with untermensche here, and thinks that the University may not in fact have the right to expel these students. I'm a bit in the middle on this matter - if it were a private college, I would say they have the right. Being a publicly funded university, I'm not so sure:



http://acluok.org/2015/03/aclu-of-o...mas-announcement-of-vp-of-diversity-position/

I'm thinking that this may have been a better alternative:

Don’t Expel Members of Sigma Alpha Epsilon for Racism

Educate them. Show them what their words mean.

...

As far as the University of Oklahoma is concerned, I should say I’m not thrilled with the punishment. Disbanding the fraternity might be justified, but expelling students for hate speech is an extreme response that runs afoul of free-speech norms, if not the First Amendment.

Education would be better. The University of Oklahoma is two hours away from Tulsa, which in 1921 was the site of one of the worst anti-black race riots in American history. More than a thousand whites stormed the black district of Tulsa and razed it to the ground, killing hundreds and leaving thousands homeless and destitute. Black Tulsa never recovered, but memories of the attack live on among descendants of the victims.

Don’t expel the boys. Bring them to Tulsa. Have them see the memorials and talk to the children of survivors. Give them a chance to see what their words actually mean, and whether they want to be the kinds of people who sing about lynching for fun.

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_...tudents_and_disbands_sigma_alpha_epsilon.html

Ah, so you want to use FEMA re-education camps to indoctrinate them with post-modernist political correctness and reverse racism?

Why do you hate white people?

 

[NobleSavage]

I was on campus in 1991-1995. Racism was not really socially acceptable in the frats. There were pockets of racists here and there. The white frats were generally open to letting a black person join. We talked with several. They were not interested; they wanted to join the all black frats and then constantly harass us about how racist we were.

 

[Toni]

I cannot for the life of me figure out why the race of fraternity members factors into whether it is ok to brand pledges.

Me either.

Nor can I figure out what this has to do with this particular topic. Why is it relevant what black fraternities allegedly did and were allowed to do to prospective members at a university you attended at some point in time?

The issue is not how fraternities treat pledges.

 

[Toni]

These kinds of power structures have been wrong about the limits of their power too many times to care.

Freedom of speech, even constitutional freedom of speech, has its limits, always has (this is why you don't find adult book stores in gated communities, and billboards on golf courses). Rights are in a constant balancing act as they are bound to come into conflict from time to time.

I've not disagreed. I've merely said the University should not have the right to punish speech that merely offends.

The issue is a) does the speech merely offend or does it create a hostile environment for some group of students, faculty or staff? and b) Does the speech significantly create a negative image of and impact on the university?

Students can be and are expelled for violating the student code of conduct. Organizations operating on university property must follow university guidelines for continued presence on the campus.

 

[AthenaAwakened]

These kinds of power structures have been wrong about the limits of their power too many times to care.

Freedom of speech, even constitutional freedom of speech, has its limits, always has (this is why you don't find adult book stores in gated communities, and billboards on golf courses). Rights are in a constant balancing act as they are bound to come into conflict from time to time.

I've not disagreed. I've merely said the University should not have the right to punish speech that merely offends.

What if such speech costs the school money?
What if such speech causes other students to feel harassed, intimidated or endangered?

 

[AthenaAwakened]

The ACLU seems to agree with untermensche here, and thinks that the University may not in fact have the right to expel these students. I'm a bit in the middle on this matter - if it were a private college, I would say they have the right. Being a publicly funded university, I'm not so sure:



http://acluok.org/2015/03/aclu-of-o...mas-announcement-of-vp-of-diversity-position/

I'm thinking that this may have been a better alternative:

Don’t Expel Members of Sigma Alpha Epsilon for Racism

Educate them. Show them what their words mean.

...

As far as the University of Oklahoma is concerned, I should say I’m not thrilled with the punishment. Disbanding the fraternity might be justified, but expelling students for hate speech is an extreme response that runs afoul of free-speech norms, if not the First Amendment.

Education would be better. The University of Oklahoma is two hours away from Tulsa, which in 1921 was the site of one of the worst anti-black race riots in American history. More than a thousand whites stormed the black district of Tulsa and razed it to the ground, killing hundreds and leaving thousands homeless and destitute. Black Tulsa never recovered, but memories of the attack live on among descendants of the victims.

Don’t expel the boys. Bring them to Tulsa. Have them see the memorials and talk to the children of survivors. Give them a chance to see what their words actually mean, and whether they want to be the kinds of people who sing about lynching for fun.

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_...tudents_and_disbands_sigma_alpha_epsilon.html

and had the university done nothing and a group of black students come to the ACLU with charges of racial harassment, the ACLU would have at least considered that case too as the organization has a history of bringing such lawsuits against schools.

 

[Togo]

I'm with untermensche on this one. I do not believe universities should have the right to rely on contracts that restrict speech that is merely offensive. Specifically, I don't feel they should have the right to restrict such speech merely on the grounds that the speakers are students. If the restriction is about conduct in class, in university facilities, on university campus, or while actively associating themselves with the university or using the university's name to promote themselves, that's also fine. If they want to be racist off campus, then that really shouldn't be under the university's control.

Free speech is a principle. I appreciate that americans tend to equate it with the very limited form of free speech that is guaranteed under their constitution, but that isn't the only meaning.

- - - Updated - - -

I'm with untermensche on this one. I do not believe universities should have the right to rely on contracts that restrict speech that is merely offensive. Specifically, I don't feel they should have the right to restrict such speech merely on the grounds that the speakers are students. If the restriction is about conduct in class, in university facilities, on university campus, or while actively associating themselves with the university or using the university's name to promote themselves, that's also fine. If they want to be racist off campus, then that really shouldn't be under the university's control.

Free speech is a principle. I appreciate that americans tend to equate it with the very limited form of free speech that is guaranteed under their constitution, but that isn't the only meaning.

 

[untermensche]

These kinds of power structures have been wrong about the limits of their power too many times to care.



I've not disagreed. I've merely said the University should not have the right to punish speech that merely offends.

What if such speech costs the school money?
What if such speech causes other students to feel harassed, intimidated or endangered?

Many things can potentially cost a University money. Supporting or opposing abortion rights could potentially cost a University money. Opposing or supporting a war could potentially cost a University money.

Potential loss of money does not trump freedom of speech. If it did then criticism of McDonalds might someday be a crime.

And if students can show that they are being individually harassed or intimidated by speech then that is another matter.

But being offended is not being harassed or intimidated.

 

[Sarpedon]

Is it speech, or fraud? Don't frats receive benefits from the University, in exchange for, among other things, upholding the University's charter? Which, presumably, includes 'no racism?' So, if there is an agreement which is signed (likely) establishing this, then the students are in breach of contract, and may be expelled for that. Don't you have to sign a paper to join a frat? I never did, so I'm largely ignorant of their inner workings, which I more or less assumed was just beer and bullshit.

Freedom of speech is one thing. If you sign a contract saying you will behave a certain way in exchange for benefits, and then you break it, that is another thing.

 

[Toni]

What if such speech costs the school money?
What if such speech causes other students to feel harassed, intimidated or endangered?

Many things can potentially cost a University money. Supporting or opposing abortion rights could potentially cost a University money. Opposing or supporting a war could potentially cost a University money.

Potential loss of money does not trump freedom of speech. If it did then criticism of McDonalds might someday be a crime.

And if students can show that they are being individually harassed or intimidated by speech then that is another matter.

But being offended is not being harassed or intimidated.

Being offended isn't the same as being harassed or intimidated. But racist language is used specifically to harass and intimidate and to create an atmosphere that is not merely unpleasant or unwelcoming but hostile. Any publicly funded university cannot tolerate such behavior any more than it can tolerate any other behavior that creates a hostile environment.

 

[dismal]

Again. If you are punished just for saying something you do not have freedom of speech.

It isn't difficult.

Apparently it is; You missed out an important part of the definition.

- If you are punished by the government just for saying something you do not have freedom of speech.

Freedom of speech protects you from the government; it does not protect you from any other entities, corporations or persons.

You don't get to prevent your boss from firing you for saying "This company sucks" on the basis of free speech.

You are absolutely 100% correct, but courts have already ruled that state universities more or less count as government in cases like this.

I don't imagine these kids will fight it however, as I'd think they'll want it to just go away

 

[laughing dog]

The university is a state university, so a case could be made that the gov't is restricting their freedom of speech. If this were a private institution, they'd have every right because the principle of the freedom of speech is not unlimited in reality. Nor does the principle of the freedom of speech protect one from every possible consequence of one's speech.

 

[repoman]

This chant was not done in public, so it was not done to harass or create a hostile environment.

 

[laughing dog]

This chant was not done in public, so it was not done to harass or create a hostile environment.

That is a rather tenuous claim. Clearly saying that niggers will never be admitted to SAE is creating a hostile environment to African Americans. And, it is hard to believe that people holding such despicable feelings could hide them to the public.

 

[dismal]

ACLU of OK position:

As a state-run institution of higher education, the University of Oklahoma must also respect First Amendment principles that are central to the mission of every university. Any sanction imposed on students for their speech must therefore be consistent with the First Amendment and not merely a punishment for vile and reprehensible speech; courts have consistently and rightly ruled as such. Absent information that is not at our disposal, it is difficult to imagine a situation in which a court would side with the university on this matter.

http://acluok.org/2015/03/aclu-of-o...mas-announcement-of-vp-of-diversity-position/

Again, however, I wouldn't guess these kids will want to be known for fighting a struggle in court for their right to use the N-word.

 

[Underseer]

ACLU of OK position:

As a state-run institution of higher education, the University of Oklahoma must also respect First Amendment principles that are central to the mission of every university. Any sanction imposed on students for their speech must therefore be consistent with the First Amendment and not merely a punishment for vile and reprehensible speech; courts have consistently and rightly ruled as such. Absent information that is not at our disposal, it is difficult to imagine a situation in which a court would side with the university on this matter.

http://acluok.org/2015/03/aclu-of-o...mas-announcement-of-vp-of-diversity-position/

Again, however, I wouldn't guess these kids will want to be known for fighting a struggle in court for their right to use the N-word.

Why wouldn't they want to be known for defending the white race from the withering attacks of reverse racism, the race card, racialism, and all the other ways the PC Police viciously oppress white people? Don't you think white people should be defended from all this persecution we face? I think it's time that those stupid liberals recognize that we live in a post-racial world. Racism simply doesn't exist anymore, so any attempt to "combat" racism inevitably results in harm to completely innocent white people like those poor ΣAE guys.

 

[fromderinside]

ACLU of OK position:



http://acluok.org/2015/03/aclu-of-o...mas-announcement-of-vp-of-diversity-position/

Again, however, I wouldn't guess these kids will want to be known for fighting a struggle in court for their right to use the N-word.

Why wouldn't they want to be known for defending the white race from the withering attacks of reverse racism, the race card, racialism, and all the other ways the PC Police viciously oppress white people? Don't you think white people should be defended from all this persecution we face? I think it's time that those stupid liberals recognize that we live in a post-racial world. Racism simply doesn't exist anymore, so any attempt to "combat" racism inevitably results in harm to completely innocent white people like those poor ΣAE guys.

I'm with you all the way right after conservative PCs quit declaring guns off the table, church as part of state, science is minority opinion, and equality is only for special people (white, fundie, rich).

 

[Underseer]

Why wouldn't they want to be known for defending the white race from the withering attacks of reverse racism, the race card, racialism, and all the other ways the PC Police viciously oppress white people? Don't you think white people should be defended from all this persecution we face? I think it's time that those stupid liberals recognize that we live in a post-racial world. Racism simply doesn't exist anymore, so any attempt to "combat" racism inevitably results in harm to completely innocent white people like those poor ΣAE guys.

I'm with you all the way right after conservative PCs quit declaring guns off the table, church as part of state, science is minority opinion, and equality is only for special people (white, fundie, rich).

So you admit that you are in favor of persecuting white people? Why do you hate our freedom?

 

[fromderinside]

I'm with you all the way right after conservative PCs quit declaring guns off the table, church as part of state, science is minority opinion, and equality is only for special people (white, fundie, rich).

So you admit that you are in favor of persecuting white people? Why do you hate our freedom?

I oppose it because, as you say, Its just your freedom.