On Getting A Head Start

[Gun Nut]

If you can't afford children, maybe you shouldn't have like five of them.

While a low birthrate is a Bad Thing, right?

P.S.: Paula's parents seem to be able to afford a big screen TV. But apparently not blocks and books. Hmm.

It's possible to get a secondhand flat-screen TV from a thrift shop. Have you ever heard of such places?

I agree with Derec that having any number of children you wish is not a right.
I wonder how it is that Ip knows how to find a second hand TV, but can't seem to find any of the millions of free books that are out there. They tend to get stored in places called Libraries.

 

[Fentoine Lum]

While a low birthrate is a Bad Thing, right?

It's possible to get a secondhand flat-screen TV from a thrift shop. Have you ever heard of such places?

I agree with Derec that having any number of children you wish is not a right.
I wonder how it is that Ip knows how to find a second hand TV, but can't seem to find any of the millions of free books that are out there. They tend to get stored in places called Libraries.

Library Closures and Defunding Concerns in 2017
http://everylibrary.org/library-closures-defunding-2017/

There's a reason slaves were not allowed to read.

 

[Gun Nut]

While a low birthrate is a Bad Thing, right?

It's possible to get a secondhand flat-screen TV from a thrift shop. Have you ever heard of such places?

I agree with Derec that having any number of children you wish is not a right.
I wonder how it is that Ip knows how to find a second hand TV, but can't seem to find any of the millions of free books that are out there. They tend to get stored in places called Libraries.

Library Closures and Defunding Concerns in 2017
http://everylibrary.org/library-closures-defunding-2017/

There's a reason slaves were not allowed to read.

Slavery ended in 1865
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery_in_the_United_States

Yet libraries still exist.

 

[Fentoine Lum]

Library Closures and Defunding Concerns in 2017
http://everylibrary.org/library-closures-defunding-2017/

There's a reason slaves were not allowed to read.

Slavery ended in 1865
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery_in_the_United_States

Yet libraries still exist.

Undergoing funding cuts, economic subjugation never ended.

 

[Toni]

Children need parents' signatures to get library cards, usually. Which means the parent must have the time to take the kids to the library. During library hours, which are often cut due to funding, especially in poorer neighborhoods. Often on public transportation which adds more time to the trip.

 

[Metaphor]

Perhaps (guessing here) you mean that it is not the deliberate fault of 'those who had the sort of advantages that we are talking about here' that they have more positive (material) outcomes? If so, I'd go along with that. To me, there is a difference between acknowledging one's privileges and feeling guilty or to blame.

No: I mean good/positive things happening to you doesn't mean bad/negative things happening to me. You having parents who read to you didn't somehow cause my parents not to read to me. There's no zero-sum game of parental involvement.

Or, say I get run over tomorrow and my legs get broken. This does not unfairly improve the lot of somebody with functioning legs at my expense. The world is just that little bit poorer for it.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

The problem here is the notion that society can fix the problem. That has not been demonstrated. Throwing money at the inner city problems is an abject failure.

It’s not just the owner cities that have poor people, Loren. Rural areas are also home to a lot of poor people—and I’m not talking about migrant workers’ children but sure, those families as well.

The rural areas have their own problems. Those with brains get out, what's left is a population selected for stupidity & a lack of drive. Any area that suffers heavy emigration (other than through the expulsion of a particular group) ends up in a pretty bad way.

I'm not aware of much in the way of efforts to fix the rural problems by throwing money at them but it's not going to work very well.

You keep saying things like richer parents care more about their kids than poor parents, bit that’s not even close to true. Nor is it true that problems of inner cities are limited to inner cities: poor people also live in small towns, rural areas and gasp! the burbs! There are good parents and bad parents and parents who would do anything for their kids—and those who don’t give a damn at every single socioeconomic strata that existed.

Absolute none of any of that is the fault of the preschooler or first grader or middle schooler or high schooler —or kid going to college or trade school or community college.

Not only do they deserve our very best efforts to give them the best possible shot at the best possible future but it’s in our own best interests to give them the best we can.

Kids who grow up in poverty are as deserving and valuable as the kids of the wealthiest families.

None of this addresses the actual issue--what are we supposed to do? Your answer is always to throw money at it--but that doesn't work outside some narrow areas. (For example, school lunches do help. I'd make school lunch free, period, and also provide a free breakfast before school starts--kids can show up early and eat if they want to.)

 

[Loren Pechtel]

The problem here is the notion that society can fix the problem. That has not been demonstrated. Throwing money at the inner city problems is an abject failure.

What does throwing money at the "job creators" solve?

You think I support His Flatulence's tax cuts?!?!

While I don't support the eat-the-rich taxation the left wants I certainly don't support what the GOP did. I'd like to see a return to the Obama-era rates, perhaps a bit more progressive. (However, I would also like to see a maximum tax rate codified into law. No combination of factors can make the marginal rate ever exceed this, if it happens the offending dollars of tax are pushed up the income line until they either fit in or end up above the AGI of the return and vanish. This would of course take computer support but the returns where this is likely to be an issue are being done on a computer anyway.)

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Children need parents' signatures to get library cards, usually. Which means the parent must have the time to take the kids to the library. During library hours, which are often cut due to funding, especially in poorer neighborhoods. Often on public transportation which adds more time to the trip.

Schools generally also have libraries.

 

[Toni]

The rural areas have their own problems. Those with brains get out, what's left is a population selected for stupidity & a lack of drive. Any area that suffers heavy emigration (other than through the expulsion of a particular group) ends up in a pretty bad way.

I'm not aware of much in the way of efforts to fix the rural problems by throwing money at them but it's not going to work very well.

You keep saying things like richer parents care more about their kids than poor parents, bit that’s not even close to true. Nor is it true that problems of inner cities are limited to inner cities: poor people also live in small towns, rural areas and gasp! the burbs! There are good parents and bad parents and parents who would do anything for their kids—and those who don’t give a damn at every single socioeconomic strata that existed.

Absolute none of any of that is the fault of the preschooler or first grader or middle schooler or high schooler —or kid going to college or trade school or community college.

Not only do they deserve our very best efforts to give them the best possible shot at the best possible future but it’s in our own best interests to give them the best we can.

Kids who grow up in poverty are as deserving and valuable as the kids of the wealthiest families.

None of this addresses the actual issue--what are we supposed to do? Your answer is always to throw money at it--but that doesn't work outside some narrow areas. (For example, school lunches do help. I'd make school lunch free, period, and also provide a free breakfast before school starts--kids can show up early and eat if they want to.)

What a bigoted thing to say. Fortunately for small towns and for America, smart people stay, too. In fact, a trend is building of young people returning to small towns.

My answer isn't : throw money at it so much as it is quit writing people off and do our best to equalize opportunities for good education, and basic services such as good health care, both issues in rural areas.

For those of you who disparage Paula's parents for putting the tv in front of Paula. My parents loved their children very much. They were both very smart people but they were not particularly confident people when it came to education and guiding their kids (aside from the So you got a 98 on your math test? Where's the other 2 points??).

The first person I can remember reading to me was Captain Kangaroo. On TV. I loved Captain Kangaroo for that even if I was a little creeped out by Bun Rabbit and Mr. Moose.

That sounds so trivial but honestly, the fact that Captain Kangaroo read to me told me that books were something I loved. It was just a spark but enough to keep my nose buried in books every chance I got.

I cannot possibly be the only person that is true for.

 

[Toni]

Children need parents' signatures to get library cards, usually. Which means the parent must have the time to take the kids to the library. During library hours, which are often cut due to funding, especially in poorer neighborhoods. Often on public transportation which adds more time to the trip.

Schools generally also have libraries.

Which are not usually open after school hours or on weekends. Also, school libraries are facing budget cuts as well and often limit the number of books a child can take out. And library privileges are taken away for children for... pretty much any activity more rambunctious than breathing in some places.

 

[Trausti]

Children need parents' signatures to get library cards, usually. Which means the parent must have the time to take the kids to the library. During library hours, which are often cut due to funding, especially in poorer neighborhoods. Often on public transportation which adds more time to the trip.

Schools generally also have libraries.

Which are not usually open after school hours or on weekends. Also, school libraries are facing budget cuts as well and often limit the number of books a child can take out. And library privileges are taken away for children for... pretty much any activity more rambunctious than breathing in some places.

You come up with a lot of excuses. If a parent wants to get books for their kid, they will. So many places to get them beyond a library; cheap, too. As children grow up, parents drop books off at the thrift store by the box load.

 

[Toni]

Which are not usually open after school hours or on weekends. Also, school libraries are facing budget cuts as well and often limit the number of books a child can take out. And library privileges are taken away for children for... pretty much any activity more rambunctious than breathing in some places.

You come up with a lot of excuses. If a parent wants to get books for their kid, they will. So many places to get them beyond a library; cheap, too. As children grow up, parents drop books off at the thrift store by the box load.

My parents didn't buy me books until I was probably in 4th or 5th grade.

It wasn't because they didn't love me. It wasn't because they didn't care about me having a good future.

It's because they fucking didn't have any extra money until I was about 9 or 10.

But so what if some parents don't care about their kids. Trust me: there are plenty of rich parents who don't care about their kids or buy them books. Do you think Donald Fucking Trump's daddy bought him any books? Bookies, maybe. Books: no. Do you think widdle DonDon's mommy read to him at night?

Dude can't read for shit. Dude can't think for shit. Dude grew up pretty damn rich.

Kids deserve the best that society can give them. If their parents cannot provide a decent start or will not, then society needs to step up.

Unless you think it's just easier to have a permanent underclass that will step and fetch and vote American if they dare vote at all.

 

[Gun Nut]

Which are not usually open after school hours or on weekends. Also, school libraries are facing budget cuts as well and often limit the number of books a child can take out. And library privileges are taken away for children for... pretty much any activity more rambunctious than breathing in some places.

You come up with a lot of excuses. If a parent wants to get books for their kid, they will. So many places to get them beyond a library; cheap, too. As children grow up, parents drop books off at the thrift store by the box load.

I donated a ton of books to my local library recently... those that my neighborhood folks didn't pick up off my stoop under the "free books" sign.
It was very surprising how many duplicate books my wife and I had after our collections commingled.

Anyway... I am of the opinion that one very major contributor of poverty is the wide spread belief that unbounded reproduction is a god-given-right (TM).
If you can't afford the money or time to feed, care, and educate your children, then you cannot afford to have them... not that someone else has to do it for you / subsidize it.

 

[Toni]

Which are not usually open after school hours or on weekends. Also, school libraries are facing budget cuts as well and often limit the number of books a child can take out. And library privileges are taken away for children for... pretty much any activity more rambunctious than breathing in some places.

You come up with a lot of excuses. If a parent wants to get books for their kid, they will. So many places to get them beyond a library; cheap, too. As children grow up, parents drop books off at the thrift store by the box load.

I donated a ton of books to my local library recently... those that my neighborhood folks didn't pick up off my stoop under the "free books" sign.
It was very surprising how many duplicate books my wife and I had after our collections commingled.

Anyway... I am of the opinion that one very major contributor of poverty is the wide spread belief that unbounded reproduction is a god-given-right (TM).
If you can't afford the money or time to feed, care, and educate your children, then you cannot afford to have them... not that someone else has to do it for you / subsidize it.

If you want poor people to be able to move out of poverty, you quit penalizing the kids and start providing adequate family supports to those who need them--minus all the shame currently associated with such.`

If you want people to postpone having children then you help them access education so that they see a future for themselves aside from making babies.

If you don't want poor people to have babies, you make highly effective birthcontrol cheap, safe and easily affordable/accessible. You also make prenatal care cheap and easily accessible (geographically, economically, societally) to best help ensure that children are born healthy (and less expensive to the state and less of an impediment to their parents completing their education and achieving career goals). You make health care at ALL socioeconomic strata and in all geographical and neighborhood locations cheap and accessible and excellent.

Same thing with education.

Every child should have the best possible chance in life.

 

[Gun Nut]

I donated a ton of books to my local library recently... those that my neighborhood folks didn't pick up off my stoop under the "free books" sign.
It was very surprising how many duplicate books my wife and I had after our collections commingled.

Anyway... I am of the opinion that one very major contributor of poverty is the wide spread belief that unbounded reproduction is a god-given-right (TM).
If you can't afford the money or time to feed, care, and educate your children, then you cannot afford to have them... not that someone else has to do it for you / subsidize it.

If you want poor people to be able to move out of poverty, you quit penalizing the kids and start providing adequate family supports to those who need them--minus all the shame currently associated with such.`

If you want people to postpone having children then you help them access education so that they see a future for themselves aside from making babies.

If you don't want poor people to have babies, you make highly effective birthcontrol cheap, safe and easily affordable/accessible. You also make prenatal care cheap and easily accessible (geographically, economically, societally) to best help ensure that children are born healthy (and less expensive to the state and less of an impediment to their parents completing their education and achieving career goals). You make health care at ALL socioeconomic strata and in all geographical and neighborhood locations cheap and accessible and excellent.

Same thing with education.

Every child should have the best possible chance in life.

I don't disagree with what you posted here. It is the parents that have already penalized the children for their poverty, by having had them. The children should be removed from homes that cannot support them and be placed in homes that can.

I care about the kids that didn't ask to be born into a bad situation. I don't at all care about what happens to the parents that inflicted their situation upon them... state sponsored slave labor? maybe.

 

[laughing dog]

Which are not usually open after school hours or on weekends. Also, school libraries are facing budget cuts as well and often limit the number of books a child can take out. And library privileges are taken away for children for... pretty much any activity more rambunctious than breathing in some places.

You come up with a lot of excuses. If a parent wants to get books for their kid, they will. So many places to get them beyond a library; cheap, too. As children grow up, parents drop books off at the thrift store by the box load.

Until last year, there was no thrift store in my town. The public library is pretty good, but it is mostly open during normal working hours and parking can be difficult.
The working poor may have little time to go the library or money for books. Lots of school libraries do not have large or good selections.

It is surprisingly disappointing that a rich developed country can have such obstacles to books which may explain the kneejerk dumbass blaming of the poor.

 

[Gun Nut]

Which are not usually open after school hours or on weekends. Also, school libraries are facing budget cuts as well and often limit the number of books a child can take out. And library privileges are taken away for children for... pretty much any activity more rambunctious than breathing in some places.

You come up with a lot of excuses. If a parent wants to get books for their kid, they will. So many places to get them beyond a library; cheap, too. As children grow up, parents drop books off at the thrift store by the box load.

Until last year, there was no thrift store in my town. The public library is pretty good, but it is mostly open during normal working hours and parking can be difficult.
The working poor may have little time to go the library or money for books. Lots of school libraries do not have large or good selections.

It is surprisingly disappointing that a rich developed country can have such obstacles to books which may explain the kneejerk dumbass blaming of the poor.

It is difficult having kids. Maybe more difficult even than finding a good parking spot so your disgustingly overweight ass doesn;t have to walk anywhere ever at all... People incapable of pulling off having a kid nearly perfectly have no business trying. They should be penalized for doing so, not rewarded as our current system does. The corrective measure is to provide the resources needed to have a good life to the children.. not to the irresponsible people spawners.

 

[Fentoine Lum]

Which are not usually open after school hours or on weekends. Also, school libraries are facing budget cuts as well and often limit the number of books a child can take out. And library privileges are taken away for children for... pretty much any activity more rambunctious than breathing in some places.

You come up with a lot of excuses. If a parent wants to get books for their kid, they will. So many places to get them beyond a library; cheap, too. As children grow up, parents drop books off at the thrift store by the box load.

I donated a ton of books to my local library recently... those that my neighborhood folks didn't pick up off my stoop under the "free books" sign.
It was very surprising how many duplicate books my wife and I had after our collections commingled.

Anyway... I am of the opinion that one very major contributor of poverty is the wide spread belief that unbounded reproduction is a god-given-right (TM).
If you can't afford the money or time to feed, care, and educate your children, then you cannot afford to have them... not that someone else has to do it for you / subsidize it.

Perfect, now mix that in with all the pro mass consumption messages we all get bombarded with daily.

 

[Fentoine Lum]

Until last year, there was no thrift store in my town. The public library is pretty good, but it is mostly open during normal working hours and parking can be difficult.
The working poor may have little time to go the library or money for books. Lots of school libraries do not have large or good selections.

It is surprisingly disappointing that a rich developed country can have such obstacles to books which may explain the kneejerk dumbass blaming of the poor.

It is difficult having kids. Maybe more difficult even than finding a good parking spot so your disgustingly overweight ass doesn;t have to walk anywhere ever at all... People incapable of pulling off having a kid nearly perfectly have no business trying. They should be penalized for doing so, not rewarded as our current system does. The corrective measure is to provide the resources needed to have a good life to the children.. not to the irresponsible people spawners.

As long as we only force this shit onto the unsubstantial people while we subsidize the corporate state I think we can all agree.