Only in California - Sexual Activity First Needs "Affirmative Consent" From Sober Parties

[Sabine Grant]

Everything I read makes it seem more than plausible that she was raped--that she was far past the point of being able to consent or to understand what was going on, she reported to the police who declined to believe that the star athlete which the entire community had a great deal invested in, was capable of needed and choosing to target a girl to drunk to consent. The bruising makes it sound quite a bit rougher than just drunk sex. His room mate's testimony that the solution to a lost key or broken door was to break the door--the fact that videorecording went missing two days after the assault tells me that the guys knew that they were in trouble. The fact that the police did not even request to see video footage from the bar--and there were lots of cameras installed for exactly this reason--tells me they simply preferred to believe their prejudice and were not interested in the facts.

You're taking her word for the situation.

I have a big problem with her not cooperating with the investigation. I can understand someone not coming forward (but in such a case I don't think there normally can be enough certainty to convict) but she did talk to the police and they didn't feel rape could be proven.

Are you living in a State where the "police" is the party concluding whether criminal charges ought to be pressed or not pressed? The Tallahassee PD did not "feel " anything. They investigated, questioned several witnesses, provided their reports to the Leon County State Attorney who then concluded that there was not enough evidence or a lack of evidence to press criminal charges. It really says nothing more to the public getting their information only from the media. The rest is the usual trend for only media dependent folks to assert, assume, speculate and then end up in this Forum attributing to each other thoughts they do not have. While drawing conclusions that a crime did occur or a crime did not occur. While also pausing as individuals endowed with the ability to read the minds of the alleged victim and Winston's mind.

Either that means a lack of evidence or that they aren't buying her story.

Again and again, the Leon County SA did NOT press criminal charges based on lack of evidence supporting her claim. Who is this "they"? Do you also have the uncanny ability to read the State Attorney's mind?

If it's just a lack of evidence there would be no harm in going through the school's procedure.


That makes me think there's a problem with her story.

The only 2 parties who know with 100% certainty whether there is a "problem with her story" are the 2 parties directly involved. Winston and the alleged victim.

 

[Sabine Grant]

I fully realize athletes rape. I'm just saying her behavior makes me think she wasn't raped. It's the same issue as always--you think all reported rapes are real.

Bullshit, Loren. B.U.L.L.S.H.I.T.

You have ZERO idea what I think. It is insulting and an ongoing issue with you to tell people what they 'always think' and intellectually dishonest.

Everything I read makes it seem more than plausible that she was raped--that she was far past the point of being able to consent or to understand what was going on, she reported to the police who declined to believe that the star athlete which the entire community had a great deal invested in, was capable of needed and choosing to target a girl to drunk to consent. The bruising makes it sound quite a bit rougher than just drunk sex. His room mate's testimony that the solution to a lost key or broken door was to break the door--the fact that videorecording went missing two days after the assault tells me that the guys knew that they were in trouble. The fact that the police did not even request to see video footage from the bar--and there were lots of cameras installed for exactly this reason--tells me they simply preferred to believe their prejudice and were not interested in the facts.

Toni, I need to address this part :

"the star athlete which the entire community had a great deal invested in". The backlash of such icon and "face" of FSU being associated with an accusation of rape has been quite intense within the FSU Student Community and the group who has the most invested interest in supporting the football team , The Booster Club. There had been a long history under the coaching(1976-2009) of now retired Bobby Bowden of a man who had emphasized on his succession of teams the ultimate importance to illustrate/demonstrate integrity and not just in the games but also in their lives. Whether Winston raped that female student or not is not what the main topic of contention is among the Tallahassee community.

It is the fact Winston deviated from a code of conduct Bowden had so diligently and consistently expected from the Seminoles. There was zero tolerance towards players tarnishing the team. Winston not keeping his pants on around a drunk female student hit very hard.(mind you he did not deny having had sex with the alleged victim. Did not deny she was a one night stand. Did not deny she was picked up in a bar). I was surprised to have encountered so many FSU students (over the course of my son undergrad and now post grad at FSU) who suspect Winston "did it". Mind you that they are representative of both genders. Surprised that a member of the Booster Club suspects "he did it". Which indicates to me at this point that the Tallahassee community is not so blinded by prejudice but are well aware that even their college football team risen star might be capable of sexually exploiting a fellow female student.

 

[Sabine Grant]

Like when there is no evidence that the female was "too drunk to consent" (or even plenty of evidence that she was definitely sober enough to consent like text messages and her being able to walk around campus under her own power) but somehow her having consumed any alcohol is deemed sufficient to expel the male student anyway, but not the female student that is guilty of the same thing (having sex with someone who'd been drinking).
Unrealistically strict "code of conduct" (no sex with anyone who has been drinking any amount of alcohol at any time even if you weren't with her) that a large percentage (if not the majority) of the student body is guilty of coupled with inconsistent and sexist (only males are being expelled for it) enforcement is one of the big reasons why the system is broken. The "ok it was not rape but it still violated code of conduct" dodge is not making anything better. Quite the opposite.

I am predicting that the investigation launched by FSU on Jamie Winston will not lead to any other conclusion than Winston did not rape that female student. However, due to Winston's very high profile and being the current "face" of FSU during this now started football season, he will be placed on a very tight leash by the athletic depart. regarding his choice of "social" activities. The messenger of the tight leash being none other than Coach Jumbo Fisher.

So you are saying that even if he is innocent he should still be punished? Because he is a jock or because he is a male? Should female athletes (like female rowers) be under the same level of additional scrutiny? But no, under the current system it's always the male that gets expelled!

There must be a bug of "poor reading comprehension" circulating in this thread!
How what I described as "being placed on a very tight leash" an that in direct relation to the FSU Code of Conduct especially the legacy Bobby Bowden left regarding the expectation for the Seminoles to reflect an exemplary integrity not just on the field but in their own lives, how it all was responded with outcries of his being punished with mention of expulsion is frankly baffling.

Derec, which insights do you have regarding how Jimbo Fisher(Seminole coach) would place a player on a "very tight leash"? Do you think it equates being "expelled" from the University? That is the only way you would feel the need to respond to "being placed on a tight leash" with outcries of punishment and expulsion.

 

[Toni]

Bullshit, Loren. B.U.L.L.S.H.I.T.

You have ZERO idea what I think. It is insulting and an ongoing issue with you to tell people what they 'always think' and intellectually dishonest.

Everything I read makes it seem more than plausible that she was raped--that she was far past the point of being able to consent or to understand what was going on, she reported to the police who declined to believe that the star athlete which the entire community had a great deal invested in, was capable of needed and choosing to target a girl to drunk to consent. The bruising makes it sound quite a bit rougher than just drunk sex. His room mate's testimony that the solution to a lost key or broken door was to break the door--the fact that videorecording went missing two days after the assault tells me that the guys knew that they were in trouble. The fact that the police did not even request to see video footage from the bar--and there were lots of cameras installed for exactly this reason--tells me they simply preferred to believe their prejudice and were not interested in the facts.

Toni, I need to address this part :

"the star athlete which the entire community had a great deal invested in". The backlash of such icon and "face" of FSU being associated with an accusation of rape has been quite intense within the FSU Student Community and the group who has the most invested interest in supporting the football team , The Booster Club. There had been a long history under the coaching(1976-2009) of now retired Bobby Bowden of a man who had emphasized on his succession of teams the ultimate importance to illustrate/demonstrate integrity and not just in the games but also in their lives. Whether Winston raped that female student or not is not what the main topic of contention is among the Tallahassee community.

It is the fact Winston deviated from a code of conduct Bowden had so diligently and consistently expected from the Seminoles. There was zero tolerance towards players tarnishing the team. Winston not keeping his pants on around a drunk female student hit very hard.(mind you he did not deny having had sex with the alleged victim. Did not deny she was a one night stand. Did not deny she was picked up in a bar). I was surprised to have encountered so many FSU students (over the course of my son undergrad and now post grad at FSU) who suspect Winston "did it". Mind you that they are representative of both genders. Surprised that a member of the Booster Club suspects "he did it". Which indicates to me at this point that the Tallahassee community is not so blinded by prejudice but are well aware that even their college football team risen star might be capable of sexually exploiting a fellow female student.

Yes, now that the case has publicity. I did not by any means intend to suggest that the entire FSU community was on the side of Winston, right or wrong. Indeed, I understand full well the many forces at work, the need of the athletics programs to stand by their recruits and maintain at least a facade of respectability and honor. And how universities avoid adding sexual assaults to their statistics by discouraging police reports. I know how hard every dollar is dollar is chased. On the other side are the individuals that make up the university and the surrounding community.

The reality is that whether or not Winston raped that student or others (and there has been more than one disturbing incident), no matter what witnesses come forward saying that she said no, that she was very drunk, it is unlikely that he will be found guilty of anything. There's too much at stake.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Since they didn't take action that leaves a possibility that they concluded she was lying and got her to drop the matter--that's how the police generally handle a false rape allegation. That would also explain her delay in talking to the university.

They handle a false rape allegation by not investigating?

That means they have no way of confirming whether or not it was actually false.

They're either corrupt or incompetent.

If they've seen enough to realize she's lying they can either drop the whole matter, or put him needlessly through the wringer and possibly turn around and prosecute her.

In any one case dropping it makes sense, although overall it means filing a false rape report is a very low risk action.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

How difficult can it be to comprehend " that is why I brought it up"? "That" referring to the initial inquiry of FSU attempting to give Winston (accused male student) his own voice and his not having his own voice certainly NOT being the product of the University not giving him a voice.

I am still awaiting for you to respond to my challenge. Pursuing to draw inflammatory conclusions of my account does not settle with me, Loren.

Considering the efforts I have deployed up to now to point you to my actual motivation, any persistence on your part to misrepresent my remarks will be considered as intentional on your part rather than a matter of poor reading comprehension on your part.

You're ignoring the fact that she didn't cooperate with the university. That's why I don't believe her.

The article did tell us that she's no longer at the university--thus immune from any judgment they could issue. Whether her delay in talking to them was until she left or not the article doesn't say but it's mighty suspicious.

She had already tried with the police, this isn't a case of not coming forward. Thus she had no reason not to talk to the university other than fearing adverse consequences from doing so--which makes me think the cops saw through her story and talked her into dropping it rather than prosecuting for filing a false police report.

 

[Toni]

How difficult can it be to comprehend " that is why I brought it up"? "That" referring to the initial inquiry of FSU attempting to give Winston (accused male student) his own voice and his not having his own voice certainly NOT being the product of the University not giving him a voice.

I am still awaiting for you to respond to my challenge. Pursuing to draw inflammatory conclusions of my account does not settle with me, Loren.

Considering the efforts I have deployed up to now to point you to my actual motivation, any persistence on your part to misrepresent my remarks will be considered as intentional on your part rather than a matter of poor reading comprehension on your part.

You're ignoring the fact that she didn't cooperate with the university. That's why I don't believe her.

The article did tell us that she's no longer at the university--thus immune from any judgment they could issue. Whether her delay in talking to them was until she left or not the article doesn't say but it's mighty suspicious.

She had already tried with the police, this isn't a case of not coming forward. Thus she had no reason not to talk to the university other than fearing adverse consequences from doing so--which makes me think the cops saw through her story and talked her into dropping it rather than prosecuting for filing a false police report.

Excuse me, Loren, the only persons I know of who is insisting that she refused to cooperate is Winston's attorney and the police officer who 'investigated' or failed to investigate rape allegations.

Here's some specifics:
http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/...egations-against-fsu-jameis-winston.html?_r=0

Patricia A. Carroll, a lawyer for Mr. Winston’s accuser, said the police investigator who handled the case, Scott Angulo, told her that because Tallahassee was a big football town, her client would be “raked over the coals” if she pursued the case.

Officer Angulo has done private security work for the Seminole Boosters, a nonprofit organization, with nearly $150 million in assets, that is the primary financier of Florida State athletics, according to records and a lawyer for the boosters. It also paid roughly a quarter of the $602,000 salary of the university president, Eric Barron, who was recently named president of Penn State.

The Tallahassee police declined to make Officer Angulo available for an interview, but his report states that he suspended the investigation because the accuser was uncooperative, which she denies.

And more:

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/report-fsu-investigating-jameis-winston-rape-allegations/

 

[Sabine Grant]

How difficult can it be to comprehend " that is why I brought it up"? "That" referring to the initial inquiry of FSU attempting to give Winston (accused male student) his own voice and his not having his own voice certainly NOT being the product of the University not giving him a voice.

I am still awaiting for you to respond to my challenge. Pursuing to draw inflammatory conclusions of my account does not settle with me, Loren.

Considering the efforts I have deployed up to now to point you to my actual motivation, any persistence on your part to misrepresent my remarks will be considered as intentional on your part rather than a matter of poor reading comprehension on your part.

You're ignoring the fact that she didn't cooperate with the university. That's why I don't believe her.

I have asked you to demonstrate with evidence drawn from my very remarks which you greeted with my "being obsessed to prove rape" that I am "being obsessed with proving rape". My POINT having been that FSU in its initial inquiry had facilitated the accused student responding to their interview and it is a case ,where Derec's complaining that Universities do NOT give accused males students a voice, it does not apply. Again, that is why I brought up those details.

The fact she did not cooperate with FSU does NOT eliminate the fact that FSU had given a voice to Winston. Contrary to claims that Universities are not willing to give accused male students a voice.

The article did tell us that she's no longer at the university--thus immune from any judgment they could issue. Whether her delay in talking to them was until she left or not the article doesn't say but it's mighty suspicious.

What type of "judgement" would somehow harm her if she still were an FSU student? Her claim would just be dismissed via a conclusion on FSU's part that no crime occurred and the accused student would not be encountering penalties such as a suspension or expulsion. Are you under the impression that such dismissal would mean that the female student would be expelled or suspended? Under the impression that lack of evidence or not enough evidence must automatically mean that the accusing party is lying and thus should be subjected to a "judgement" from the University?

She had already tried with the police, this isn't a case of not coming forward. Thus she had no reason not to talk to the university other than fearing adverse consequences from doing so--which makes me think the cops saw through her story and talked her into dropping it rather than prosecuting for filing a false police report.

What leads you to believe that the Leon County SA's decision to not press charges based on lack of evidence or not enough evidence can only mean that the SA concluded it was a "false police report"? Again, the sole party legally empowered to prosecute anyone being the State Attorney.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Excuse me, Loren, the only persons I know of who is insisting that she refused to cooperate is Winston's attorney and the police officer who 'investigated' or failed to investigate rape allegations.

Did you not read the article?

 

[Toni]

Excuse me, Loren, the only persons I know of who is insisting that she refused to cooperate is Winston's attorney and the police officer who 'investigated' or failed to investigate rape allegations.

Did you not read the article?

Can you help me out here, Loren? Could you please link and quote what I am missing?

I am sure I am being dumb here but I haven't read anything that states this rape victim refused to cooperate aside from allegations made by Winston representatives. That she had second thoughts, yes, as most crime victims in general do, and rape victims especially, AFTER she realized who her attacker was and his fame. She was aware that going forward would be difficult in those circumstances but she did not refuse to cooperate.

I read and re-read articles linked in this thread and also did a couple of internet searches about the FSU rape accuser refusing to cooperate. The only people I see making such statements: that she refused to cooperate are the investigator who did not actually investigate the rape but who had been on the payroll of the booster club as well as lawyers and advisers representing Winston. State Attorney Meggs specifically said that the victim did cooperate and that any perceived reluctance on her part was in keeping with reluctance of victims of crimes--any kind of crime. He specifically states that she was willing to testify.