Paycheck transparency

[laughing dog]

I see. You had no point.

Sure. If YOUR point is the only point that matters.. I'm just not interested in riding your hijacked clown car to a discussion about anti-corruption methodologies. I actually get paid to do that in real life... and judging by your position, you can't afford my opinion. Why? because my compensation is in my own hands.. I have value. get some for yourself and see how much better control you have too.

This is why rich people are republicans and poor people are bleeding heart liberals... the needy need, and the prosperous prosper.

That is a rather bloviated acknowledgement that you had no point. The rest of your response confuses market value with actual value, as well as demonstrating you don't understand what my position was.

 

[ksen]

No, especially if there is a salary/wage range for each title.

The benefits of public knowledge of pay rates is it's harder to employers to discriminate with pay and it gives more power to the employee.

What do you see as the potential negatives to such a scenario?

Violation of my right to privacy, as a private citizen.. Today, the amount of money I potentially have in my bank account is private. I would like it to remain that way, even if it means that negotiations for MY compensation are MY responsibility.

We have a minimum wage... it exists. That is everyone's guarantee that they will be paid a "fair" wage. Every penny more you make than that is on you.
I find it infantile and wholly a "first-world white-male issue" that people making $60,000 a year want to make sure that OTHERS are not making $70,000 for what they (probably erroneously) THINK that other person is doing is somewhat similar to what they are doing.

Everyone isn't a winner. Everyone is an individual. Everyone isn't entitled to a fucking trophy. Earn for yourself.

lol

 

[Tom Sawyer]

It's a way to use people's own selfishness, greed and stupidity against them in order to depress wages. They're so impressed by their ability to negotiate a few more scraps for themselves that they don't care that the higher-ups are taking the whole damn pie.

 

[Canard DuJour]

It's a way to use people's own selfishness, greed and stupidity against them in order to depress wages. They're so impressed by their ability to negotiate a few more scraps for themselves that they don't care that the higher-ups are taking the whole damn pie.

No!!

More are embarrassed about their crappy-undercutting-others wages.

 

[Jason Harvestdancer]

Suppose I do not want to share the information on my paycheck, and I am not a public employee.

What option do I have to say "none of your business" to anyone who wants to know? Or do I lack the right to say "none of your business"?

I asked these questions in an identical thread in the past, never got an answer.

Companies have gotten away with corporate-wide pay discrimination for decades.
If all pay rates were available, no one would have to ask you and you would never have to talk about it.
Even if it were ranges or bands of pay that were disclosed, that would be a start.

So they would be able to know it without asking me?

 

[Rhea]

Companies have gotten away with corporate-wide pay discrimination for decades.
If all pay rates were available, no one would have to ask you and you would never have to talk about it.
Even if it were ranges or bands of pay that were disclosed, that would be a start.

So they would be able to know it without asking me?

Yes.
Is this a problem? If so, why? What do you _lose_ if someone else knows your pay band or pay rate?

In congress, for example, the base pay of every congresscrittur is known. The bump in pay that each gets from being on committee or leading a committee is also known.

In publicly held corporations the pay of the top executives is known. Sometimes they obscure stuff in bonuses, which harms the shareholders ability to vote accurately, but it is supposed to be all transparent.

In many (most?) unions the pay scales of each job description is known.

Are any of those groups _harmed_ by people knowing what the compensation is?

 

[Jason Harvestdancer]

Yes, I lose something if people know my pay, I lose my right to privacy.

So I want paycheck privacy for myself, and don't really give a damn about what other people are paid. What recourse do you supporters of transparency offer to me? Do you tell me to go fuck myself because you don't give a shit about what I want?

 

[Nice Squirrel]

Yes, I lose something if people know my pay, I lose my right to privacy.

So I want paycheck privacy for myself, and don't really give a damn about what other people are paid. What recourse do you supporters of transparency offer to me? Do you tell me to go fuck myself because you don't give a shit about what I want?

Really, so your company has some sort of obligation not to publish your pay? And you can sue them for publishing it?

Please tell me about this "right".

Is it in the agreement you entered into as freely negotiated contract?

 

[Bronzeage]

Yes, I lose something if people know my pay, I lose my right to privacy.

So I want paycheck privacy for myself, and don't really give a damn about what other people are paid. What recourse do you supporters of transparency offer to me? Do you tell me to go fuck myself because you don't give a shit about what I want?

You only have a right to privacy in matters where privacy is expected. A whisper in bed is private. A whisper at a cocktail party is not. To put a finer point on it, the right to privacy only exists in places where privacy can be guarded. If your employer prefers paycheck privacy, you're in luck.

If you happen to have a job which rewards higher production with more money, everyone has a valid interest in other people's paycheck. A production based incentive plan has to be transparent. There's no incentive to work harder, if the employee's don't trust the accounting.

Supporters of transparency owe you nothing.

 

[Trausti]

Yes, I lose something if people know my pay, I lose my right to privacy.

So I want paycheck privacy for myself, and don't really give a damn about what other people are paid. What recourse do you supporters of transparency offer to me? Do you tell me to go fuck myself because you don't give a shit about what I want?

Really, so your company has some sort of obligation not to publish your pay? And you can sue them for publishing it?

Please tell me about this "right".

Is it in the agreement you entered into as freely negotiated contract?

Without getting into the details, an employee has a recognized privacy right in his employment/personnel file. Generally the employer may not disclose this sensitive information, including pay, without being required to do so, e.g., SEC disclosure mandate, ordered by a court, etc.

 

[Nice Squirrel]

Well that's a bummer that mine is actually published in the paper then.

 

[Trausti]

Well that's a bummer that mine is actually published in the paper then.

You're a public employee; your pay is a public expenditure.

 

[Nice Squirrel]

Well that's a bummer that mine is actually published in the paper then.

You're a public employee; your pay is a public expenditure.

Still bullshit, but I am not finding anything stating that payroll is private. Its a good idea to keep it private, but not seeing any law stating such.

 

[Trausti]

You're a public employee; your pay is a public expenditure.

Still bullshit, but I am not finding anything stating that payroll is private. Its a good idea to keep it private, but not seeing any law stating such.

I'm attorney. I've argued and won this issue (for employee files of a private company).

 

[Nice Squirrel]

Still bullshit, but I am not finding anything stating that payroll is private. Its a good idea to keep it private, but not seeing any law stating such.

I'm attorney. I've argued and won this issue.

Okay. I'll take your word for it. It's a bit before lunch so I am cranky and argumentative.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

So they would be able to know it without asking me?

Yes.
Is this a problem? If so, why? What do you _lose_ if someone else knows your pay band or pay rate?

We had a situation a while ago where two of our employees surreptitiously went through the mailboxes of their coworkers and snuck peaks at everyone else's paystubs. WHY they did this, we will probably never know, but having learned the payrate of their coworkers, they immediately ran and complained to the management that THEY deserved raises because three new employees were starting at a lower pay than they started 6 years earlier. They also complained bitterly -- and eventually openly -- about two employees they didn't personally like making more money than they thought was fair. This helped kick off an inter-office hissy fit that lasted a little over eight months and culminated in a mass-firing of just under half our staff, including one of the general managers.

Point being: sometimes that disclosure causes more harm than good.

 

[laughing dog]

Well that's a bummer that mine is actually published in the paper then.

You're a public employee; your pay is a public expenditure.

So? CIA employees do not have their pay published in the paper. I suspect whether or not it is legal to publish private employees pay depends on state law.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Yes.
Is this a problem? If so, why? What do you _lose_ if someone else knows your pay band or pay rate?

We had a situation a while ago where two of our employees surreptitiously went through the mailboxes of their coworkers and snuck peaks at everyone else's paystubs. WHY they did this, we will probably never know, but having learned the payrate of their coworkers, they immediately ran and complained to the management that THEY deserved raises because three new employees were starting at a lower pay than they started 6 years earlier. They also complained bitterly -- and eventually openly -- about two employees they didn't personally like making more money than they thought was fair. This helped kick off an inter-office hissy fit that lasted a little over eight months and culminated in a mass-firing of just under half our staff, including one of the general managers.

Point being: sometimes that disclosure causes more harm than good.

Yup. My wife's former employer. My wife was working on an agreement where she got 50% of actual collections from her work. Another employee found out about this and threw a hissy fit, feeling he was way underpaid. The boss warned him things weren't as rosy as he was thinking but finally relented. Oops--he got a big lesson in billings not matching collections and that collections were often delayed, sometimes for substantial amounts of time. He soon quit because he wasn't making enough to pay the bills.

 

[bilby]

Really, so your company has some sort of obligation not to publish your pay? And you can sue them for publishing it?

Please tell me about this "right".

Is it in the agreement you entered into as freely negotiated contract?

Without getting into the details, an employee has a recognized privacy right in his employment/personnel file. Generally the employer may not disclose this sensitive information, including pay, without being required to do so, e.g., SEC disclosure mandate, ordered by a court, etc.

The cultural and legal idiosyncracies of your nation are dependent on the desires of the legislators and hence, to some degree, the people. Your laws are not laws of nature.

The law can answer the question 'May employee remuneration be made public?', but is incapable of answering the question 'Should employee remuneration be made public?'.

If the answer to the first is 'no', and the answer to the second is 'yes', then it is the duty of the legislature to bring the former into line with the latter.

Quoting the law is a poor defense against doing the right thing.

There is no right to privacy in any circumstances. Just varying degrees of expectation of privacy. Just ask the NSA.

 

[ksen]

Yes.
Is this a problem? If so, why? What do you _lose_ if someone else knows your pay band or pay rate?

We had a situation a while ago where two of our employees surreptitiously went through the mailboxes of their coworkers and snuck peaks at everyone else's paystubs. WHY they did this, we will probably never know, but having learned the payrate of their coworkers, they immediately ran and complained to the management that THEY deserved raises because three new employees were starting at a lower pay than they started 6 years earlier. They also complained bitterly -- and eventually openly -- about two employees they didn't personally like making more money than they thought was fair. This helped kick off an inter-office hissy fit that lasted a little over eight months and culminated in a mass-firing of just under half our staff, including one of the general managers.

Point being: sometimes that disclosure causes more harm than good.

the point there is that transparency from the beginning would have not allowed that problem to begin with