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People would rather believe than know

SLD

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“People would rather believe than know.”

― Edward O. Wilson

I find this so true living in the Bible Belt. People don’t really care about their religion, they just want to believe it. They are afraid not to. They don’t want to examine it. They don’t even think about it. They just believe it and go to church. That’s what you do.

I asked someone to read The God Delusion, she just wouldn’t. She said it was OK if I was an atheist, her brother was one, too. But she just could not examine, or even explain her faith. She just shut her mind to the gospel of atheism.

But I wonder then if she really believes? Or is that she’s too afraid to go against everything that she’s been following her entire life?

Another friend confessed that he didn’t really believe all of that mumbo jumbo, but he could never abandon his church. Without them he could never have gotten through a nasty divorce. He’s a senior member of their vestry now. Very much involved in it. He’s never remarried and it provides him with an important social outlet.

I wonder if this is how religion continues to survive and even thrive. Is the church full of people who are just going through the motions because that’s what you do? There’s no alternative community for non believers. Well, maybe the UU church.
 
Politcs too, even science.

It is easy to just accept what one hears a scientist say rather than understand it.
 
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I mentioned in another thread that one of the biggest reasons why people are drawn to religion, especially Christianity in the South is for community. We atheists aren't very good at forming and maintaining close communities. And, sadly, when I was the treasurer of the now defunct Humanists of Georgia, I learned that most atheists aren't interested in financially supporting their groups. The former treasurer told me that he and I were the only ones who would need a tax deduction form for our contributions. I found out what he meant. Most of our members gave nothing or no more than a dollar or two a month. We had rent to pay and we liked to pay speakers. We couldn't do that without some funds. We did have some money because someone had left about 10K to the group in his will.

The Atlanta Freethought Society had to start charging members a yearly fee so they could pay their bills. They own what was once a small church building. They have a mortgage but very few members were willing to contribute. If we want a strong community, we must be willing to make a few sacrifices to keep it going. I guess since we don't believe we have a god looking over us and judging us, it can be harder to get us to pay for our groups.

My local group doesn't have any bills to pay, but our group varies greatly. Sometimes we only have a few people meeting up and sometimes we have 20 or more. The pandemic really slowed things down, and we never got back to normal. It's not that we didn't have enough things in common. We just aren't very good at organizing and maintaining groups.

I also mentioned that I have met 3 different church members who were atheists. They attended our meetups but they also attended their church on Sundays, primarily for community. I also knew a man who had become an atheist late in life. He was so miserable due to the loss of his church community, that I felt sorry for him. He despised religion by that time, but grieved the loss of his community.

On the other hand, I've known plenty of non practicing Christians. They don't go to church, but they claim to believe the basics of Christianity. So, it's not always about community. Sometimes, I think it's cultural. This seems to be especially true among many Black folks. There are some crazy Black fundamentalist Christians, who I've known when I still worked or met at our senior center, but most of the Black folks I've known seem very happy with their churches and the cultural aspects of religion, but they rarely try to convert others. I say rarely because there was a Black PA who I worked with before I retired who tried to invite me to her church, when I mentioned that I had more respect for the Black church then I did for white churches. I guess she thought I was headed for hell. She was such a smart person that it was hard for me to understand how she was able to maintain such a silly belief. I guess she never gave it that much thought. It's hard for some people to give up the beliefs they were told were true, even if they don't make sense.

Religion serves different purposes for different people. But, I agree that community is a biggie. I've even encouraged my very lonely neighbor, who does't believe in Christianity, that she might want to attend the church near us for community, as that church isn't too extreme and they do a. lot of social things.

I usually tell someone who is a believer when they start telling me what they believe" I don't care what anyone believes as long as they don't try to convince others to believe or judge others who have different beliefs." I try to do that myself, as I have some close friends who are Christians. I don't care if it makes them happy. I also think it must give them comfort to think they will see their loved ones again in an afterlife. Of course, that's not going to happen, but they're never going to know that because they will be dead. Of course, if one believes in an extreme version of Christianity, there's always the fear that someone you love will end up being tortured in hell, so the idea of an afterlife can be either comforting or disturbing.

Still, it may be true that most Christians don't think too much about what they believe because when I lost my conservative Christian beliefs when I was about 18, I was told not to think too much about the Christian beliefs, by some of my church friends.
 
Dawkins' book is about belief in gods, not community, although Dawkins himself devotes a considerable portion of his life to a social movement that promotes atheist lifestyles. Belief and community aren't mutually exclusive, but the purpose of a religious community is to provide support other than belief maintenance. Belief (or rejection of a popular belief) is the glue that holds the community together, but the religion itself functions primarily as a coping mechanism. People use it to get genuine relief from suffering. Atheist communities don't usually work as well at helping people to cope with suffering, so it doesn't surprise me that people are more reluctant to make big sacrifices to keep them going. In fact, atheism tends to carry a social stigma, whereas conventional religions are considered socially acceptable and even admirable belief systems. Hence, atheist communities are harder to form and maintain. Many of my atheist friends belong to Universalist Unitarian communities for that reason. Those communities tend to provide community support to atheists without promoting belief in atheism.
 
As someone who is atheist I am also engaged in lots of community activities and groups. None of those groups are based on being atheist. If they were that would be like joining a group founded on the premise that none of us collect stamps. That would be odd.

A religious community is one of many. Religion didn't invent community, rather community invented religion. As to the OP, sure, community is important to people. What distinguishes religious communities, generally speaking, is that its members share a belief in a specific woo or at least pretend that they do.
 
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As someone who is atheist I am also engaged in lots of community activities and groups. None of those groups are based on being atheist. If they were that would be like joining a group founded on the premise that none of us collect stamps. That would be odd.

It would not be odd, if groups of people collecting stamps were ubiquitous and there was social pressure to join a stamp collecting group. What would be odd is if stamp collecting were that sort of social phenomenon. However, religion per se is not an odd. So atheism arose as a controversial reaction to it.
 
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Wilson's quote is from Sociobiology. And he was stating that human behavior is largely genetically determined, not chosen. That's the context and it was controversial because most folks were still of the opinion that we're able to make choices and that science lets us do that. Wilson was saying that science doesn't change a person's bias, that our behavior is largely genetically predetermined.

Anyway, scientific discoveries do in fact change human bias for those persons genetically so predisposed. But it doesn't work for fundamentalists and that's not any big news. Wilson later tried to get the Fundamentalists to at least work with the scientists to preserve biodiversity, a good thing for everyone, at least it would so seem.

Some people conflate belief with knowledge. Was Wilson claiming that even with knowledge a person chooses to disbelieve? I really don't have enough information to say what Wilson was meaning to communicate. I was responding to the point about community and that there can be community sans religion. If, however, I am unable to understand that I will probably always be religious because I really don't know any other way.
 
As someone who is atheist I am also engaged in lots of community activities and groups. None of those groups are based on being atheist. If they were that would be like joining a group founded on the premise that none of us collect stamps. That would be odd.

A religious community is one of many. Religion didn't invent community, rather community invented religion. As to the OP, sure, community is important to people. What distinguishes religious communities, generally speaking, is that its members share a belief in a specific woo or at least pretend that they do.
I see it a bit differently than you do, when it comes to atheist groups. We are old now and traveling for an hour or more to Atlanta has become too much of a stressful chore, so we no longer visit the Atlanta Freethought Society meetings. But, when we did, we always had a wonderful time and some of the speakers were fantastic. My favorite one is the guy who wrote the book "Atheism for Dummies", which I've read twice. There was also a history professor who loved to speak to our group, probably because we were more interested in what he was talking about, compared to most of his young students. We had a geologist give a detailed speech with charts on climate change. We had a Muslim speaker manyl years ago who made the case that most Muslims in the US are liberal and have no desire to harm anyone. That was a few years after 911. We also had a Mormon speaker once who told us about her time in prison for embezzlement and how she was now trying to live a moral life etc. So, the speakers come from a variety of backgrounds and are usually interesting. I doubt any mainstream church would allow an atheist to speak to them.

So, getting together this way allows one the opportunity to meet a lot of wonderful people. I do agree that we don't do a good job of supporting each other, like most churches do. For example, a poor Black friend of mine needed some expensive dental work. I offered to help pay for it, but she told me her church is helping pay for it, in return for her doing a little bit of work for the church. Atheist groups aren't known for that type of charity, but then, we haven't been organized for centuries like Christian groups have. I don't know what my dear friend would do without her church community. She is one of the most loving people I've ever known. She's not highly educated and has always had health problems. I do wonder if she would be so happy without the support of her church community.

Most of us were fairly liberal when it came to our political views, so we did have a lot of things in common. Plus it was fun meeting a variety of people from different backgrounds who for one reason or another had become atheists. The last meeting we attended was presented by the "Black Nonbelievers of Atlanta", a group that is made up of mostly females. The speaker was very interesting and I had a good time joking with them about being the token white woman when I asked if I could be included in a photo of the group. I miss those good times. The pandemic caused the meetings to be stopped for over a year. They are going on again, but I'm not sure we will be motivated to drive that far again. That's another problem. Most of the members of the groups in large cities like ATL, don't live very close to each other.

I would probably join a UU Fellowship if there was one in my area, but the three that I know about are over an hour's drive from us, so all we have is our small group that tries to get together for dinner once a month. I've made friends with a couple of the members and we always enjoy getting together. The conversations are non stop and we usually end the evening with hugs. It's also nice to know that there are others in the area who don't believe in gods, although anyone is welcome to join our group. One man who comes when he has the time, was raised in an evangelical home, he is also gay and is currently having some martial issues. His husband has moved to the other side of the country. We at least try to give him a little emotional support. He's not quite an atheist, as he's still investigating different religions, but he told us at our last meeting that atheists were the most fun to be around. Perhaps if you had much experience with our free thought groups, you would understand why we like them so much. The AFS has been around since at least the 80s, so apparently some people do find the group an important part of their social life.

IIDB is an atheist group imo, and I feel as if I know many of you, even if we've never met in person. It's just more fun and personal to get together in real life. It's also easier to have conversations without misunderstandings. I have fond memories of many of the older folks who have died over the years, as we began visiting the AFS about 20 years ago. One of my favorites was a man in his mid 90s who was still very sharp and loved telling us about the most recent book he read. It's not that we celebrated atheism, it was just a nice break to be around a fairly large group of nonbelievers, especially for those of us who live in the Bible Belt.

I didn't mean to be so wordy, I'm just trying to give you a taste of why atheist/freethought groups can be interesting and a lot of fun. Your social life may be so full that you don't feel the need for this, but a lot of us do value our atheist social groups.
 
“People would rather believe than know.”

― Edward O. Wilson

I find this so true living in the Bible Belt. People don’t really care about their religion, they just want to believe it. They are afraid not to. They don’t want to examine it. They don’t even think about it. They just believe it and go to church. That’s what you do.

I asked someone to read The God Delusion, she just wouldn’t. She said it was OK if I was an atheist, her brother was one, too. But she just could not examine, or even explain her faith. She just shut her mind to the gospel of atheism.

But I wonder then if she really believes? Or is that she’s too afraid to go against everything that she’s been following her entire life?

Another friend confessed that he didn’t really believe all of that mumbo jumbo, but he could never abandon his church. Without them he could never have gotten through a nasty divorce. He’s a senior member of their vestry now. Very much involved in it. He’s never remarried and it provides him with an important social outlet.

I wonder if this is how religion continues to survive and even thrive. Is the church full of people who are just going through the motions because that’s what you do? There’s no alternative community for non believers. Well, maybe the UU church.
Some people, perhaps. Though I do not personally see this as a partisan issue, determinable by preferred faith (or non-faith) label. There are all types of people in every "camp".
 
I wonder if this is how religion continues to survive and even thrive. Is the church full of people who are just going through the motions because that’s what you do? There’s no alternative community for non believers. Well, maybe the UU church.
We participate actively with many communities. I keep active because I enjoy the company that shares a similar interest. None of those communities are believer communities. Neither are they non believer communities. Some of the members are obviously onto the religious thing and might get preachy but it's obvious no one is interested.

Perhaps it's different living down south. I lived there for many years and was invited to attend different services. Obviously they wanted my participation but when it didn't happen no one seemed to really care. I didn't need that community but certainly needed and had community elsewhere, same as here living up north. Skeptical Inquirer had a local group that I attended regularly for a couple years but my work schedule eventually put an end to that. We had fun meetings and fun speakers.

Churches around here are going belly up faster than one can count. That doesn't mean that people are losing their sense of community or opportunity for community involvement. The possibilities for community participation are virtually endless. I guess, however, that if I wanted to belong to a non-believer community I'd have to get online and find one, an atheist meetup or something similar, and get together with like minded folk. That would be okay. My neighbors are JWs and we get along just fine because they've given up on me.

Religious communities are as much demographics and habit as actual belief, at least that's how it always seemed to me. If you were a kid you were expected to become a member. Obviously lots of kids don't think so. The Amish community is not far from here. Honestly, I believe that what keeps that community going is it's isolation, nothing else. If they exposed their members to outsiders the community would vanish. Ethnic parishes were little feudal hangovers where members felt secure. Now they're on their way out because they aren't needed anymore.

Anyway, community is available to everyone.
 
“People would rather believe than know.”

― Edward O. Wilson
And that goes for everybody, not just the religious.
I find this so true living in the Bible Belt. People don’t really care about their religion, they just want to believe it. They are afraid not to. They don’t want to examine it. They don’t even think about it. They just believe it and go to church. That’s what you do.
Wanting to believe what appeals to us has got to be one of the biggest impediments to the progress of knowledge. Personally, I'd rather suffer the shame of correction than enjoy the bliss of ignorance. I can get over the humiliation of correction, but making dangerous mistakes might not be so livable.
I asked someone to read The God Delusion, she just wouldn’t. She said it was OK if I was an atheist, her brother was one, too. But she just could not examine, or even explain her faith. She just shut her mind to the gospel of atheism.
I was not aware that there is a gospel of atheism.
But I wonder then if she really believes? Or is that she’s too afraid to go against everything that she’s been following her entire life?
Peer pressure can often get doubters to remain in their group while feigning agreement with that group.
I wonder if this is how religion continues to survive and even thrive. Is the church full of people who are just going through the motions because that’s what you do? There’s no alternative community for non believers. Well, maybe the UU church.
I've heard that some groups like the Jehovah's Witnesses are rough on those witnesses who dare to express open disagreement with them, and the JWs will sometimes shun family members who "go apostate." Such treatment on the part of JWs has resulted in many unbelievers in their ranks who stay only because they fear to leave.

But atheists do it too. I've endured insults, name-calling, and even threats of violence from atheists who cannot tolerate my disagreeing with them. So in addition to intolerant religious jerks, we have intolerant secular jerks too.
 
Dawkins' book is about belief in gods, not community, although Dawkins himself devotes a considerable portion of his life to a social movement that promotes atheist lifestyles. Belief and community aren't mutually exclusive, but the purpose of a religious community is to provide support other than belief maintenance. Belief (or rejection of a popular belief) is the glue that holds the community together, but the religion itself functions primarily as a coping mechanism. People use it to get genuine relief from suffering. Atheist communities don't usually work as well at helping people to cope with suffering, so it doesn't surprise me that people are more reluctant to make big sacrifices to keep them going. In fact, atheism tends to carry a social stigma, whereas conventional religions are considered socially acceptable and even admirable belief systems. Hence, atheist communities are harder to form and maintain. Many of my atheist friends belong to Universalist Unitarian communities for that reason. Those communities tend to provide community support to atheists without promoting belief in atheism.
It seems that you're saying that people would rather know than believe. In other words they want to know they have friends in a community who can help them. The attendant beliefs are optional.
 
Dawkins' book is about belief in gods, not community, although Dawkins himself devotes a considerable portion of his life to a social movement that promotes atheist lifestyles. Belief and community aren't mutually exclusive, but the purpose of a religious community is to provide support other than belief maintenance. Belief (or rejection of a popular belief) is the glue that holds the community together, but the religion itself functions primarily as a coping mechanism. People use it to get genuine relief from suffering. Atheist communities don't usually work as well at helping people to cope with suffering, so it doesn't surprise me that people are more reluctant to make big sacrifices to keep them going. In fact, atheism tends to carry a social stigma, whereas conventional religions are considered socially acceptable and even admirable belief systems. Hence, atheist communities are harder to form and maintain. Many of my atheist friends belong to Universalist Unitarian communities for that reason. Those communities tend to provide community support to atheists without promoting belief in atheism.
It seems that you're saying that people would rather know than believe. In other words they want to know they have friends in a community who can help them. The attendant beliefs are optional.

Not quite. What I really said was that community seems to be a greater motivating factor than either belief or knowledge when it comes to religion. Religious communities function as coping mechanisms more than a plausible explanations of how reality works. Shared religious convictions are the social glue that hold the community together.
 
I kind of think "hope/accept" is a better term. "People would rather Hope it can get better than accept it can't."

I apply the same phrase to atheism ... "People would rather believe than know"

What would it sound like?
 
“People would rather believe than know.”

This slogan actually doesn't make sense.

Everyone does both. Everyone "knows" some things, and everyone "believes" some things. And we all want to do both.

And the two are not mutually exclusive. The only difference between "believing" and "knowing" is that the latter is more certain, or has higher probability.

Maybe if the probability is 99.9% or higher, then it's KNOWING.

Whereas if the probability is only 70 or 80%, then it's believing. Or fill in whatever probability numbers you wish. In any case, the two, believing and knowing, overlap over a certain range, like 90% to 99%, where they are the same -- i.e., the believing and knowing mean the same.

Anyone who claims to only KNOW, and snubs their nose at BELIEF, is a self-deluded fool. You have to act on your beliefs in some cases, without knowing for sure. And even if action is not required, but it's just abstract believing about something you don't need to decide, it's still good for us to seek the truth and try to persuade others if we think we found the right answer.

And anyone claiming to be a non-believer (or atheist or skeptic or truth-seeker etc.), and thus superior to others they brand as "believers," still has many beliefs they are promoting and trying to spread to others -- beliefs they don't know are true, or are even false, or partly false.
 
“People would rather believe than know.”

― Edward O. Wilson
And that goes for everybody, not just the religious.
In the field of religion, not quite. There are grumpy theists posing as atheists who are willfully ignoring theism for whatever reason. But the trouble with believe than know for atheism is that there is no standard of knowing. One can't prove atheism. It is just there are so many ridiculous religions out there, that it'd make more sense to outcast those ridiculous superstitions like we did their understanding of weather and medicine. Personally, would I rather have eternal life? Well yeah! But wishful thinking doesn't make it so.

The trouble with theism is it discounts most everyone else's vision of theism. This incompatibility is an issue they don't like to discuss or they might use the "it is all the same god" card.
 
“People would rather believe than know.”

This slogan actually doesn't make sense.
It makes a lot of sense. Try talking geology to a young-earth creationist who believes in the flood.
Which begs the question: are they really people? Or just aspiring or pretending to be people?

They are definitely people.

Meaning "Not very perceptive. Weak mental abilities. Not inclined towards rational thought when it interferes with instinctive preferences."

They're totally people.
Tom
 
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