Pluto flyover by New Horizons

[Angra Mainyu]

Other countries/groups of countries that sent probes far beyond the Moon are the European Union, Japan, and India. A conspiracy would indicate that all of those governments - including new administrations that do not denounce their predecessors - are in on it, and all of the scientists who work with, say, samples from a comet (Stardust) or an asteroid (Hayabusa) either fail to realize it's a trick, or are in on the world wide conspiracy as well, etc.

But maybe Cerberus is just pulling our legs.

Nope, Cerberus isn't pulling your legs. No matter where the charlatans are in the world, they all want an easy well-paid job for life; wouldn't you? I certainly would! They've invented a whole new lexicon intended to impress and beguile in order to sustain the mystique: I couldn't care about that if only they weren't so bloody condescending by broadcasting their totally unproven outpourings as if they talking to gullible children - which in a way I suppose they are, in that adults can be gullible too.

If you're asking whether I would accept a job at NASA or ESA or any other space agency after I'm told by the agency in question that it's nearly all a lie, no I would not accept - then again, I wouldn't believe them. I would believe they're pulling my legs.

But anyway, do you think that the European Union, Russia, India and Japan are also faking their own space missions?
Also, what do you think about scientists who work with samples from a comet or an asteroid? Do you think they're lying, or they're incompetent?

By the way, do you think the Kepler Space Telescope is also fake?

 

[Cerberus]

I think you're reading to many sci-fi comics DBT. Try something that stretches your intellect.

Do you believe that I was being serious? Do I believe that you are being serious?

No, I believe you are being facetious toward me. It's a commonly-used ploy by those who are running out of sensible argument, or cannot disprove nor otherwise counter an alternative viewpoint. Dystopian does it all the time!

 

[DBT]

Do you believe that I was being serious? Do I believe that you are being serious?

No, I believe you are being facetious toward me. It's a commonly-used ploy by those who are running out of sensible argument, or cannot disprove nor otherwise counter an alternative viewpoint. Dystopian does it all the time!

Woot....a sensible argument. That's quite funny. We could start with a sensible proposition. Something that doesn't require a world wide conspiracy involving numerous nations, organizations, and countless individuals who work in that field...all done without a single credible whistle blower.

 

[Angra Mainyu]

Cerberus, what do you think of the following case?

https://www.nrao.edu/
http://www.esa.int/Our_Activities/S...firm_Huygens_entry_in_the_atmosphere_of_Titan
https://www.nrao.edu/pr/2004/huygens/
http://saturn.jpl.nasa.gov/news/newsreleases/newsrelease20050114/
www.atnf.csiro.au/news/press/huygens_alert.html
http://adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/2005nrao.pres....6.

Are all of them also in on the conspiracy, including but not limited to all of the people running the experiments in (quoting from http://adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/2005nrao.pres....6 ) "the Netherlands Foundation for Research in Astronomy (ASTRON, The Netherlands), the University of Bonn (Germany), Helsinki University of Technology (Espoo, Finland), the MERLIN National Facility (Jodrell Bank, UK), the Onsala Space Observatory (Sweden), the NASA Jet Propulsion Laboratory (Pasadena, CA), the CSIRO Australia Telescope National Facility (ATNF, Sydney, Australia), the University of Tasmania (Hobart, Australia), the National Astronomical Observatories of China, the Shanghai Astronomical Observatory (Shanghai and Urumqi, China) and the National Institute of Information and Communications Technologies (Kashima Space Research Center, Japan)."?

Also,
http://www.atnf.csiro.au/news/press/huygens_alert.html

Seventeen countries are contributing to the Cassini-Huygens mission. The Huygens
probe is supplied by the European Space Agency (ESA) and the Cassini orbiter
by NASA. Huygens operations will be controlled by ESA from its operations centre
in Darmstadt, Germany. NASA is providing the mission operations and telecommunications
through its Deep Space Network of antennas, which includes the Canberra Deep
Space Communications Complex at Tidbinbilla.

It's an huge number of people, and that's just one mission. But not one of them chooses to come forward. Do you think they studied to be part of a massive, world-wide conspiracy? Why doesn't even one come forward when their dream job studying space turns out to be a massive fraud?

 

[Keith&Co.]

or cannot disprove nor otherwise counter an alternative viewpoint.

Yeah, you're right, there.
But the inability to disprove an alternative view does not validate that view.
It could be carefully founded bullshit that simply refuses to be disproven. Look at how many people are facetious towards Jack Chick or Kent Hovind. Especially instructive is Kent's $250,000 challenge to evolutionists. Given his challenge's construction, an astrophysicist could not prove that the sky is blue in such a way as to force Kent to admit it.

 

[Cerberus]

If you're asking whether I would accept a job at NASA or ESA or any other space agency after I'm told by the agency in question that it's nearly all a lie, no I would not accept - then again, I wouldn't believe them. I would believe they're pulling my legs.

If you accepted a post you would obviously start on the lower rungs of the ladder, like you would if you were accepting a position in any other firm, and would therefore not be entitled to a considered opinion. If you declared that you suspect 'it's all a lie' they'll tell you to take it, or leave it, and wouldn't care either way (in fact if you did have the temerity to ask that question during the interview you wouldn't even be offered the post - they'd say 'Next applicant please.'). If you took the post despite those restrictions, and subsequently 'made waves' within it - ie became a whistle-blower - you'd be sacked and never be employed in the same field ever again.

But anyway, do you think that the European Union, Russia, India and Japan are also faking their own space missions?

Apart from the ESA I have no idea what those other agencies publicly say, therefore I can't comment.

Also, what do you think about scientists who work with samples from a comet or an asteroid? Do you think they're lying, or they're incompetent?

I wouldn't be competent to comment on it, and nor would you; so we'd either have to accept what we hear, or not accepted it. Neither would be know if they were competent or not, so a conclusion to that question would be a matter of confidence or scepticism.

By the way, do you think the Kepler Space Telescope is also fake?

I have no reason to think its a fake.

 

[dystopian]

Do you believe that I was being serious? Do I believe that you are being serious?

No, I believe you are being facetious toward me. It's a commonly-used ploy by those who are running out of sensible argument, or cannot disprove nor otherwise counter an alternative viewpoint. Dystopian does it all the time!

Alternately, being facetious is a common behavior shown towards those who make fools out of themselves and who don't respond to sensible arguments or proof.

 

[Cerberus]

Cerberus, what do you think of the following case?

https://www.nrao.edu/
http://www.esa.int/Our_Activities/S...firm_Huygens_entry_in_the_atmosphere_of_Titan
https://www.nrao.edu/pr/2004/huygens/
http://saturn.jpl.nasa.gov/news/newsreleases/newsrelease20050114/
www.atnf.csiro.au/news/press/huygens_alert.html
http://adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/2005nrao.pres....6.

Are all of them also in on the conspiracy, including but not limited to all of the people running the experiments in (quoting from http://adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/2005nrao.pres....6 ) "the Netherlands Foundation for Research in Astronomy (ASTRON, The Netherlands), the University of Bonn (Germany), Helsinki University of Technology (Espoo, Finland), the MERLIN National Facility (Jodrell Bank, UK), the Onsala Space Observatory (Sweden), the NASA Jet Propulsion Laboratory (Pasadena, CA), the CSIRO Australia Telescope National Facility (ATNF, Sydney, Australia), the University of Tasmania (Hobart, Australia), the National Astronomical Observatories of China, the Shanghai Astronomical Observatory (Shanghai and Urumqi, China) and the National Institute of Information and Communications Technologies (Kashima Space Research Center, Japan)."?

Also,
http://www.atnf.csiro.au/news/press/huygens_alert.html

Seventeen countries are contributing to the Cassini-Huygens mission. The Huygens
probe is supplied by the European Space Agency (ESA) and the Cassini orbiter
by NASA. Huygens operations will be controlled by ESA from its operations centre
in Darmstadt, Germany. NASA is providing the mission operations and telecommunications
through its Deep Space Network of antennas, which includes the Canberra Deep
Space Communications Complex at Tidbinbilla.

It's an huge number of people, and that's just one mission. But not one of them chooses to come forward. Do you think they studied to be part of a massive, world-wide conspiracy? Why doesn't even one come forward when their dream job studying space turns out to be a massive fraud?

Well what a surprise! See my earlier post re what happens to whistle-blowers??

 

[Cerberus]

No, I believe you are being facetious toward me. It's a commonly-used ploy by those who are running out of sensible argument, or cannot disprove nor otherwise counter an alternative viewpoint. Dystopian does it all the time!

Alternately, being facetious is a common behavior shown towards those who make fools out of themselves and who don't respond to sensible arguments or proof.

But you have offered no substantive nor substantiated argument whatsoever; all you've done is to write what you've read somewhere. Anyone can do that - in fact many are on this very thread!!!

 

[Keith&Co.]

If you accepted a post you would obviously start on the lower rungs of the ladder, like you would if you were accepting a position in any other firm,

Wel, that would depend on what your qualifications were and why you were hired, wouldn't it?

I didn't start at my company at the lower rungs. I had experience they wanted for a job that was some distance above entry level. Not everyone being hired at NASA would be 'lower rungs,' some will have experience, training or other qualifications for higher positions. Positions that would require their complicity.

If you took the post despite those restrictions, and subsequently 'made waves' within it - ie became a whistle-blower - you'd be sacked and never be employed in the same field ever again

Many people have changed fields in their careers. It's especially easy to do right after your face has been plastered across magazine covers for drawing attention such as proving the moon landing was faked, or evolution is a conspiracy, or any other big whistle-blowing event. The post-career talk show circuit and memoir markets are very attractive to some people.

 

[Angra Mainyu]

Apart from the ESA I have no idea what those other agencies publicly say, therefore I can't comment.

But you can easily find out on line. If you think there is such a vast conspiracy theory, are you not interested in figuring out which countries are in on it?
Anyway, I'll give you some examples, and ask whether they're part of the conspiracy:
India's Mars mission:
http://zeenews.india.com/tags/Mars-probe.html
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_Mars_probe

Japan's asteroid mission:
www.isas.jaxa.jp/e/enterp/missions/hayabusa/index.shtml
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hayabusa

A lot of institutions from 17 countries involved in the Cassini-Huygens mission, including tracking by radiotelescopes (links already provided). That includes NASA, ESA, China's and Russia's agencies and institutions, etc.

So, do you think they're all in on the conspiracy?
Why do you think when they realized it was all fake, all of those countries decided to spend a lot of money in the fake stuff, instead of exposing the US and all of those deceitful scientists in the US?

I wouldn't be competent to comment on it, and nor would you; so we'd either have to accept what we hear, or not accepted it. Neither would be know if they were competent or not, so a conclusion to that question would be a matter of confidence or scepticism.

No, that's not it. You're claiming that it was fake, so that there were no samples taken from an asteroid or comet. That entails that every scientist working on them is either in on the conspiracy, or fails to realize he or she is not working with real samples.

By the way, are you equally skeptic of, say, fingerprint analysis in court cases, given that you're not an expert on the matter? (if you are, please let me know and I'll pick another example).

 

[Angra Mainyu]

Cerberus, what do you think of the following case?

https://www.nrao.edu/
http://www.esa.int/Our_Activities/S...firm_Huygens_entry_in_the_atmosphere_of_Titan
https://www.nrao.edu/pr/2004/huygens/
http://saturn.jpl.nasa.gov/news/newsreleases/newsrelease20050114/
www.atnf.csiro.au/news/press/huygens_alert.html
http://adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/2005nrao.pres....6.

Are all of them also in on the conspiracy, including but not limited to all of the people running the experiments in (quoting from http://adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/2005nrao.pres....6 ) "the Netherlands Foundation for Research in Astronomy (ASTRON, The Netherlands), the University of Bonn (Germany), Helsinki University of Technology (Espoo, Finland), the MERLIN National Facility (Jodrell Bank, UK), the Onsala Space Observatory (Sweden), the NASA Jet Propulsion Laboratory (Pasadena, CA), the CSIRO Australia Telescope National Facility (ATNF, Sydney, Australia), the University of Tasmania (Hobart, Australia), the National Astronomical Observatories of China, the Shanghai Astronomical Observatory (Shanghai and Urumqi, China) and the National Institute of Information and Communications Technologies (Kashima Space Research Center, Japan)."?

Also,
http://www.atnf.csiro.au/news/press/huygens_alert.html


It's an huge number of people, and that's just one mission. But not one of them chooses to come forward. Do you think they studied to be part of a massive, world-wide conspiracy? Why doesn't even one come forward when their dream job studying space turns out to be a massive fraud?

Well what a surprise! See my earlier post re what happens to whistle-blowers??

Of course it's a surprise. When you have thousands of people in on a conspiracy, it's to be expected that at least one will tell, despite the consequences. In fact, you could expect that many, many of them would be dismayed when they find out, and would be willing to take the risk. We're talking about people who wanted to learn new things about space, not to be crooks.
Now, you are promoting the belief that those people are all engaged in a massive fraud. It's unacceptable.

 

[Keith&Co.]

We're talking about people who wanted to learn new things about space, not to be crooks.

I hadn't thought that through, either.
If I wanted a career in pushing the boundaries of knowledge, and found it was actually a career in pushing the boundaries of fraud, I wouldn't be terribly wed to protecting the fraud career, would I?

And anyone after that who refused to hire me as a whistleblower would be pretty much announcing that they had something to hide, possibly further fraud.

 

[dystopian]

But you have offered no substantive nor substantiated argument whatsoever; all you've done is to write what you've read somewhere. Anyone can do that - in fact many are on this very thread!!!

Your standard are impossible.

If I share with you our scientific findings, you will just say that I'm just repeating what others tell me.

If I share with you those findings in great detail, presenting ironclad arguments and the most solid of evidence, you will still just say that I'm repeating what others tell me.

If scientists themselves share these things with you, you will just say that they are lying and just saying things.

No matter what evidence is presented before you, and by whom, you will not accept it. That is why people are being facetious towards you. Because to speak with you at all is a waste of time, so we might at least entertain ourselves a little by doing so.

 

[James Brown]

Of course 'space exists', I've never said it doesn't! Jesus wept!
'Have we been there'? Only in 'the back yard' viz the moon; further out? No!

Why not?

Here's an interesting image detailing humanity's record in interplanetary space:

Show

What is your evidence that the dozens of space missions performed by multiple countries around the world have all been faked?

You can deflect away evidence that the missions have been performed all night long. But you are making a positive claim--that all space missions beyond the Moon's orbit are faked.

Where's your evidence? Let us see what you have, so that we can evaluate it. If you have none, then your claim can be dismissed.

Your move, Cerberus.

 

[PyramidHead]

There has to be a wish buried in there somewhere. What I mean is, rational people would not normally adopt a stance of extreme skepticism about something as specific as space travel without an underlying emotional motivation. In the same way, 99% of the people who doubt evolution by natural selection are members of a particular handful of religions (our resident economic Non-stradamus, boneyardbill, seems to be an exception). It makes me wonder whether Cerberus has a pre-existing commitment to a worldview that is incompatible with the concept of satellites. Do we know of any belief systems that insist no satellites have travelled past the moon?

 

[James Brown]

There has to be a wish buried in there somewhere. What I mean is, rational people would not normally adopt a stance of extreme skepticism about something as specific as space travel without an underlying emotional motivation. In the same way, 99% of the people who doubt evolution by natural selection are members of a particular handful of religions (our resident economic Non-stradamus, boneyardbill, seems to be an exception). It makes me wonder whether Cerberus has a pre-existing commitment to a worldview that is incompatible with the concept of satellites. Do we know of any belief systems that insist no satellites have travelled past the moon?

Well, Galileo laughed about a couple of Catholics who refused to look through his telescope on the grounds that Copernicanism contradicted the Bible's teachings of Geocentrism.

But man, that was hundreds of years ago.

 

[Keith&Co.]

Do we know of any belief systems that insist no satellites have travelled past the moon?

Well, true biblical literalism teaches us that the sun, moon and stars all roll around inside a solid sky. A probe aimed at Mars would reach it in the same time as a probe aimed at Pluto. They'd probably miss, unless the people programming the launch adjusted their calculations for close-proximity planets.

Oh, maybe that's what happened! NASA couldn't explain why their spaceship crashed into the sky without automatically validating Genesis, so the launch was real, but everything after day 2 of the mission has been faked while they prepare convincing evidence of a 'distant' (lol) planet.

There has to be a wish buried in there somewhere.

It's the same one for all conspiracies. Scientists/economists/liberals/the Gubbmint are competent enough to defraud the entire nation/world/whoever with a hoax, but unable to prevent The Theorist from penetrating the web of deceit. Cerberus is, therefore, superior to the credulous sheep who buy what they're told without thought.

 

[Iznomneak]

Nope, Cerberus isn't pulling your legs. No matter where the charlatans are in the world, they all want an easy well-paid job for life; wouldn't you? I certainly would! They've invented a whole new lexicon intended to impress and beguile in order to sustain the mystique: I couldn't care about that if only they weren't so bloody condescending by broadcasting their totally unproven outpourings as if they talking to gullible children - which in a way I suppose they are, in that adults can be gullible too.

Yep, after selling ~200 million Queen albums and being worth ~$135,000,000, Brian May gets his PhD in Astrophysics and becomes part of the Pluto Team because he's looking for an easy well-paid job for life.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_best-selling_music_artists

http://www.slate.com/blogs/behold/2015/07/20/kyle_cassidy_photographs_the_new_horizons_science_team.html

http://www.therichest.com/celebnetworth/celeb/musician/brian-may-net-worth/

Yep, that makes perfect sense to me.

 

[Keith&Co.]

I think you're reading to many sci-fi comics DBT. Try something that stretches your intellect.

Speaking of 'intellect' that should be 'too' many.

And, do you have any evidence that anything's been faked? You made a positive claim and threw the burden of proof out to your critics. What do you have FOR your assertions?